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Buyer claims ISNAD; but it was. He just didn't like the coin
SAM5969
Posts: 1,217 ✭✭✭
Buyer starts return on eBay.. Says ISNAD (item significantly not as described) and I therefore have to pay the return shipping (which I'll do anyways just to be a decent guy if someone asks.. I'd rather have the person happy .. It's small potatoes.. I have no problem with that. The coin was a dipped out 1899-S quarter in an ICG 58 holder. Description says blast white coin in an ICG 58 holder... The pictures are also very accurate and comparable to in hand look; certainly reasonably close enough to be considered more than acceptable.
In the email his comments said "not original surfaces", which I never claimed there to be in the description.. And he stated item defective .. It's not defective ... the holder is in perfect shape no blemishes or nicks. The description also makes mention the coin is for sale for about half what it would retail in a problem free PCGS holder; $499/ best offer.. (I accepted a best offer )... Auction records and coin facts show these selling for $1000 or more.. Again I'm doing nothing about it .. I'm happy to refund anybody anything they buy from me no reason needed . Someone's unhappy or thanks I let them astray or even if they just ask .. I will almost always refund their return shipping cost unless I feel they are trying to get one up on me..
I'm not going to bother contacting eBay to say the item was as described.. Just going to bite my tongue and follow through.. How it others feel about a similar situation? The point of this is not a rant as much as it is the principle. Accusing me, incorrectly in my opinion, of item not significantly as described got my ire up a tad feeling falsely accused (tell me if you think otherwise . And if you do disagree, please tell me why.)
Thanks
In the email his comments said "not original surfaces", which I never claimed there to be in the description.. And he stated item defective .. It's not defective ... the holder is in perfect shape no blemishes or nicks. The description also makes mention the coin is for sale for about half what it would retail in a problem free PCGS holder; $499/ best offer.. (I accepted a best offer )... Auction records and coin facts show these selling for $1000 or more.. Again I'm doing nothing about it .. I'm happy to refund anybody anything they buy from me no reason needed . Someone's unhappy or thanks I let them astray or even if they just ask .. I will almost always refund their return shipping cost unless I feel they are trying to get one up on me..
I'm not going to bother contacting eBay to say the item was as described.. Just going to bite my tongue and follow through.. How it others feel about a similar situation? The point of this is not a rant as much as it is the principle. Accusing me, incorrectly in my opinion, of item not significantly as described got my ire up a tad feeling falsely accused (tell me if you think otherwise . And if you do disagree, please tell me why.)
Thanks
0
Comments
<< <i>INSAD
Item Not as Seller Described? Item Not Sold As Described?
Just my best guess.
Choice Numismatics www.ChoiceCoin.com
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I learned a long time ago to let the buyer say what he wants, take it back, and say, "sorry you were not happy". Move on.
You really didn't bite your tongue apparently! If he is a member, he might also give you a negative to really tick you off!
Wabbit - Your commentary is always so enlightening
"Item Significantly Not as described" was the grievance filed by buyer
I said I was moving forward and biting my tongue - this was not a rant as stated - I wanted other opinions and to see if this claim did have repercussions and apparently it does as highlighted earlier in thread
Ms Morrisine - here is your link:" Text
Again - I agree the coin is not original - I agree the coin is ugly (well he never asked - he sent no questions - he just offered and I accepted - 7 days later out of the blue with no correspondence he filed a grievance .. So that is the story .. Again - I don't care - I don't sell much on eBay and wanted to see what others would do if in sxame situation and to see if there were repercussions for the grievance filed against me
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.american-legacy-coins.com
<< <i>Sounds like he didn't like the coin in hand and wanted to make sure he can return the coin and get his money back, so he used the full extent of the eBay return system to that effect. I wouldn't view it as him trying to get one up on you, it's just a straightforward way for him to protect himself. >>
Never said he was trying to get one over .. I did say that I am happy to reimburse a buyer's return shipping cost even if Item was described accurately and nothing else was done wrong just as a courtesy - UNLESS I feel taken advantage of (for other reasons)
He didn't have to file INSAD as I offer 14 day refund - What I feel was done was securing his return shipping fee being refunded to him . I feel I did list the item accurately. He did not ask any questions about the coin prior to buying and he did not correspond before the sale in any way - after coin was received - nothing ... He just filed a grievance-
I also ship all items FREE .. If he was so fussy about original surfaces, then he must be blind - the coin is obviously dipped out ,, and to not ask a question and just order it knowing you can file the grievance IMO is just wrong .. that is my point .. Situations like this will cost others over $20 (and potentially a lot more for more expensive coins) in two way shipping because of this "loophole"
I think the wording is not being interpreted correctly by many members
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. - Bastiat
<< <i>If the coin was obviously dipped out then you should have said so in your description. >>
I hear you 291 - I agree .. And when it gets relisted it will be stated that way ..
On the other side of the devil's advocate scale, I do challenge you to find 2 listings on ebay or any auction house/dealer website where an obviously dipped out coins in a TPG problem-free holder where the seller states it is his opinion the coin has been dipped out .. I don't recall seeing such a description before .. anywhere. But I just may be not remembering.
<< <i>and the ebay ID of the buyer is? >>
I don't think it is the right thing to answer this so I will not
Only way to truly avoid customers is to get out of retail/resale
<< <i>IMO if one deals in classic white coins (ESP in non-major TPG holders) this will happen from time to time. But if you dealt in amazing PQ PCGS CAC coins and sold them a fair replacement prices you would get the occasional "i was robbed" customer.
Only way to truly avoid customers is to get out of retail/resale >>
+1
<< <i>IMO if one deals in classic white coins (ESP in non-major TPG holders) this will happen from time to time. But if you dealt in amazing PQ PCGS CAC coins and sold them a fair replacement prices you would get the occasional "i was robbed" customer.
Only way to truly avoid customers is to get out of retail/resale >>
Ditto.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>If the coin was obviously dipped out then you should have said so in your description. >>
Maybe he should just get it over with and say, "don't buy this piece of S**T"!
No way you have to say that. You images are just fine. I can't believe ICG put that as AU-58. I like the company but that was a miss.
a recent thread I posted. I said "no problems" when there obviously was a problem....
Oversight but I was wrong.
bob
I don't typically deal in off holder coins and never intentionally buy coins with this look ... this was a "one off" and hence the reason for the sale .. The price is commensurate with the quality -- While it would be the righteous thing to list coins as obviously cleaned or dipped - find me a single Heritage auction write-up where the coin having been cleaned or dipped is referenced as such. I find dozens every auction just in Barber Quarters and never see such a write-up.. The crutch is it is one's opinion (obvious or not) as to what happened to the coin. The picture is worth 1000 words .. you couldn't tell ?? From that picture? And if you seriously weren't sure, you don't shoot the seller an email asking?
Does the seller therefore have to write a full disclosure as to everything that could be construed as not as described and therefore are liable to the claim and automatically therefore pay the return shipping? What if there was a 1 mm hairline scratch on the reverse of the slab but the coin was gorgeous and conservatively graded ? Does the buyer "qualify" to file this grievance? After all, you didn't mention the 1mm scratch at 7:00 on the reverse of the slab in an area you didn't even notice? Couldn't the buyer find any reason to file the grievance if he got creative enough ? That's all I am saying; nothing more - nothing less. I do not care about the $10 it costs me - I could care less - it is this concept or principle that in theory could apply to everyone who sells .. it is a poor policy for this reason I think
Bottom line is failing to offer an opinion that I think the coin has been dipped out, (subjective? like eye appeal), means I was negligent and therefore responsible to cover his return shipping even though he truly made no effort to quantify what is obviously a deal breaker for him, when the pictures tell the most novice of collectors the coin is white as the January snow.
<< <i>well said Crypto .. Again - I am not much of a seller - very little and certainly not in retail .. Your point is excellent and accurate IMO
I don't typically deal in off holder coins and never intentionally buy coins with this look ... this was a "one off" and hence the reason for the sale .. The price is commensurate with the quality -- While it would be the righteous thing to list coins as obviously cleaned or dipped - find me a single Heritage auction write-up where the coin having been cleaned or dipped is referenced as such. I find dozens every auction just in Barber Quarters and never see such a write-up.. The crutch is it is one's opinion (obvious or not) as to what happened to the coin. The picture is worth 1000 words .. you couldn't tell ?? From that picture? And if you seriously weren't sure, you don't shoot the seller an email asking?
Does the seller therefore have to write a full disclosure as to everything that could be construed as not as described and therefore are liable to the claim and automatically therefore pay the return shipping? What if there was a 1 mm hairline scratch on the reverse of the slab but the coin was gorgeous and conservatively graded ? Does the buyer "qualify" to file this grievance? After all, you didn't mention the 1mm scratch at 7:00 on the reverse of the slab in an area you didn't even notice? Couldn't the buyer find any reason to file the grievance if he got creative enough ? That's all I am saying; nothing more - nothing less. I do not care about the $10 it costs me - I could care less - it is this concept or principle that in theory could apply to everyone who sells .. it is a poor policy for this reason I think
Bottom line is failing to offer an opinion that I think the coin has been dipped out, (subjective? like eye appeal), means I was negligent and therefore responsible to cover his return shipping even though he truly made no effort to quantify what is obviously a deal breaker for him, when the pictures tell the most novice of collectors the coin is white as the January snow. >>
LOL Scott! It is part of being a seller! I have another one coming back unopened in it's original shipping package because it was bought as a gift. Turns out someone else also had the same idea and was presented 1st! Watch out all you sellers who agree to "Holiday Returns!".
It is also interesting that the seller acknowledges that the surfaces are not original
<< <i>It is interesting to note that icg is an ebay approved grading company
It is also interesting that the seller acknowledges that the surfaces are not original >>
Are there not many dipped coins in reputable TPG holders?
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. - Bastiat
<< <i>
<< <i>If the coin was obviously dipped out then you should have said so in your description. >>
I hear you 291 - I agree .. And when it gets relisted it will be stated that way ..
On the other side of the devil's advocate scale, I do challenge you to find 2 listings on ebay or any auction house/dealer website where an obviously dipped out coins in a TPG problem-free holder where the seller states it is his opinion the coin has been dipped out .. I don't recall seeing such a description before .. anywhere. But I just may be not remembering.
<< <i>and the ebay ID of the buyer is? >>
I don't think it is the right thing to answer this so I will not >>
The problem with eBay coin listings is that most sellers don't want certain negative things about their coins brought to the potential buyer's attention. They start talking in code that some buyers can't translate. This results in unhappy buyers.
Upon receiving it I was told it did not work
I was pissed for a moment
Told him to send it back
It worked when I got it back
I put it back on eBay and got twice what I got the first time
Sometimes ebay sales go this way. It's just part of the business.
Lance.
<< <i>Does the seller therefore have to write a full disclosure as to everything that could be construed as not as described and therefore are liable to the claim and automatically therefore pay the return shipping? What if there was a 1 mm hairline scratch on the reverse of the slab but the coin was gorgeous and conservatively graded ? Does the buyer "qualify" to file this grievance? After all, you didn't mention the 1mm scratch at 7:00 on the reverse of the slab in an area you didn't even notice? Couldn't the buyer find any reason to file the grievance if he got creative enough ? That's all I am saying; nothing more - nothing less. I do not care about the $10 it costs me - I could care less - it is this concept or principle that in theory could apply to everyone who sells .. it is a poor policy for this reason I think >>
In the world of Ebay, the buyer can do no wrong. No matter what you put in the auction terms or conditions, if the buyer wants to return an item, they can find a way to do so. Often at no out of pocket expense. As others have said, this is part of dealing in the world of Ebay.
There will be more bumps in the road as Ebay moves from the online flea market they started out as, to more of an Amazon style market. Large volume sellers who are willing to deal with problem retail customers.
<< <i>In the world of Ebay, the buyer can do no wrong. No matter what you put in the auction terms or conditions, if the buyer wants to return an item, they can find a way to do so. Often at no out of pocket expense. As others have said, this is part of dealing in the world of Ebay. >>
Ebay's business model of putting the buyer first works for both buyers and sellers. Buyers KNOW it is safe to buy on ebay and sellers know that buyers will buy there for this reason. Unfortunately there will always be buyers that take advantage of the situation.
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. - Bastiat
"Unfortunately there will always be buyers that take advantage of the situation."
In other words, eBay's business model of putting the buyer first doesn't always work for sellers.
<< <i>"Ebay's business model of putting the buyer first works for both buyers and sellers."
"Unfortunately there will always be buyers that take advantage of the situation."
In other words, eBay's business model of putting the buyer first doesn't always work for sellers. >>
Nope, not always. But it does always bring more buyers to the table.
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. - Bastiat
<< <i>Nope, not always. But it does always bring more buyers to the table. >>
When your [eBay's] policies allow buyers to take advantage of sellers, it probably will.
<< <i>On Ebay the seller is expected to offer Neiman Marcus service while receiving Costco pricing. >>
No kidding. Geico is spending, what- thousands (or more?) of dollars of their own money advertising that they have a 97% customer satisfaction rating. They'd be kicked off eBay with ratings that low.
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. - Bastiat
This crap is precisely why I don't sell on eBay any longer. I've never seen any other retail outlet that allows buyers to totally strong arm sellers. I recently had an estate company sell two very valuable saxophones my father owned (via Ebay). There were over 40 (!) pictures detailing every inch. The selling price was 24k dollars, and the buyer came up with a bunch of nitpicks and demanded $2500 off. Rather than fight, I gave in and kept the lower amount.... But this crap makes me a lunatic.
This just falls back to entitlement society....I'm entitled to my way and you won't get one on me, or I'll sic eBay on you or trash your feedback..here have your coin back.
Sorry, man.
/grey
<< <i>Hey guys:
This crap is precisely why I don't sell on eBay any longer. I've never seen any other retail outlet that allows buyers to totally strong arm sellers. I recently had an estate company sell two very valuable saxophones my father owned (via Ebay). There were over 40 (!) pictures detailing every inch. The selling price was 24k dollars, and the buyer came up with a bunch of nitpicks and demanded $2500 off. Rather than fight, I gave in and kept the lower amount.... But this crap makes me a lunatic.
This just falls back to entitlement society....I'm entitled to my way and you won't get one on me, or I'll sic eBay on you or trash your feedback..here have your coin back.
Sorry, man.
/grey >>
Did you not also have the choice of refunding his money upon return of the items. Decision was yours, not the buyer's. Like I said, a seller always has posession of either the money or the merchandise.
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. - Bastiat
<< <i>With ebay a seller is always in posession of his product or the money for it while a buyer dishes out his money to a complete stranger and waits for the product. >>
You forgot to mention that buyers get to choose who to do business with but sellers don't.
<< <i>Who should ebay focus on when it comes to protection? >>
How about both? How about (for example) not protecting a buyer whose feedback would indicate a 20% loss rate of packages shipped to him?
edited to add... But all that's okay- I get it. Obviously, eBay (along with others, it would seem) is fine with the idea that sellers (regardless of their performance record) are not to be trusted. Just because.
<< <i>well said Crypto .. Again - I am not much of a seller - very little and certainly not in retail .. Your point is excellent and accurate IMO
I don't typically deal in off holder coins and never intentionally buy coins with this look ... this was a "one off" and hence the reason for the sale .. The price is commensurate with the quality -- While it would be the righteous thing to list coins as obviously cleaned or dipped - find me a single Heritage auction write-up where the coin having been cleaned or dipped is referenced as such. I find dozens every auction just in Barber Quarters and never see such a write-up.. The crutch is it is one's opinion (obvious or not) as to what happened to the coin. The picture is worth 1000 words .. you couldn't tell ?? From that picture? And if you seriously weren't sure, you don't shoot the seller an email asking?
Does the seller therefore have to write a full disclosure as to everything that could be construed as not as described and therefore are liable to the claim and automatically therefore pay the return shipping? What if there was a 1 mm hairline scratch on the reverse of the slab but the coin was gorgeous and conservatively graded ? Does the buyer "qualify" to file this grievance? After all, you didn't mention the 1mm scratch at 7:00 on the reverse of the slab in an area you didn't even notice? Couldn't the buyer find any reason to file the grievance if he got creative enough ? That's all I am saying; nothing more - nothing less. I do not care about the $10 it costs me - I could care less - it is this concept or principle that in theory could apply to everyone who sells .. it is a poor policy for this reason I think
Bottom line is failing to offer an opinion that I think the coin has been dipped out, (subjective? like eye appeal), means I was negligent and therefore responsible to cover his return shipping even though he truly made no effort to quantify what is obviously a deal breaker for him, when the pictures tell the most novice of collectors the coin is white as the January snow. >>
You are absolutely correct - how much time can you really afford to spend on descriptions?
I think that a dealer who does spend the time will have far more repeat business and perhaps less returns. However, deadly honest descriptions might scare off some buyers also - if Heritage put "dipped" on every coin that plainly has been, there'd definitely be a lot less bidding, I'm sure.
But when a defect has caused you to offer something well under the going rate, I think it's good practice to say why, because it just may not be obvious to all buyers. This may have been such a case.
Depending upon how a case is closed can / will result in a "defect" against the seller.
A certain number of "defects" will result in a seller losing their 20% discount. This is being done purposely by feepay to reduce the amount of sellers receiving the 20% discount and for the resulting increase in feepay's bottom line.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Only way to truly avoid customers is to get out of retail/resale
>>
+1
" I'm not happy with this coin and it's looking for a happy home "
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
"I wish you weren't unhappy. Let me at least pay shipping back to me to make it up to you"
"It's not just the shipping. You robbed me. If you think you can buy me off and let people think you're NOT a cheap crook, you are a sociopath and other people like me should be protected from a piece of (etc., etc., etc) . . . ."
"The check for $14.27 will be going out today" . . . "click"
Block. Lock.
If 99% is a failing grade, so be it. The people you lose because of their statistical "safety-zone radar" are more likely to be outliers themselves, at least in terms of being "high-maintenance"