My proof 1804 dollar

bidask · May 4, 2014 7:28AM

PCGS Proof 66 Cameo .....finest graded by 3 points at PCGS

3 Graded Proof 66 at NGC

Had to have it when I saw it.

I think the proof mintage is 150.....

PipestonePete · May 4, 2014 7:30AM

Great looking coin!

CaptHenway · May 4, 2014 7:45AM

Very nice!

MsMorrisine · May 4, 2014 7:48AM

nice detail!

Zoins · May 4, 2014 8:02AM

Congrats!

How many are known out of the 150?

MidLifeCrisis · May 4, 2014 8:03AM

Cool coin.

bidask · May 4, 2014 9:40AM

<< Congrats!

How many are known out of the 150? >>

im not sure.

There are several varieties of this date but I'm not sure which variety this one is
as I bought it based on its condition census status at PCGS and NGC.

NGC has graded a total of 33 coins in proof with 3 in 66 and 4 in proof cameo with the highest being a 65 proof cameo.
So the one graded at PCGS above (of a total of 2) is the finest specimen known.

NumisOxide · May 4, 2014 9:42AM

Very nice! Great eye appeal.

crypto79 · May 4, 2014 9:50AM

<< NGC has graded a total of 33 coins in proof with 3 in 66 and 4 in proof cameo with the highest being a 65 proof cameo.
So the one graded at PCGS above (of a total of 2) is the finest specimen known. >>

I think you mean "finest graded by the American TPGs" opposed to finest known. But never the less it is a special coin.

Wabbit2313 · May 4, 2014 10:07AM

<< 

<< NGC has graded a total of 33 coins in proof with 3 in 66 and 4 in proof cameo with the highest being a 65 proof cameo.
So the one graded at PCGS above (of a total of 2) is the finest specimen known. >>

I think you mean "finest graded by the American TPGs" opposed to finest known. But never the less it is a special coin. >>

The highest graded example of this coin by PCGS qualifies as the finest known, without any question.

Lovely coin!!!

JCMhouston · May 4, 2014 10:33AM

Don't get me wrong, this is a wonderful coin. It is Obv. C, reverse is either 2A (most likely) or 2B depending on if the inverted K is incuse or not, my guess is ESC 154.

But...

<< The highest graded example of this coin by PCGS qualifies as the finest known, without any question. >>

Is so wrong I don't even know where to begin since the vast majority of British and European coins have yet to be graded. I have no doubt this one would be very high in the condition census, but there are some very fine pieces in the BM and Ashmolean (as examples) which I saw many years ago. crypto79 is correct in his statement, it is certainly the finest graded.

Zoins · May 4, 2014 10:37AM

Has anyone checked the CGS pop report?

Wabbit2313 · May 4, 2014 11:17AM

<< Don't get me wrong, this is a wonderful coin. It is Obv. C, reverse is either 2A (most likely) or 2B depending on if the inverted K is incuse or not, my guess is ESC 154.

But...

<< The highest graded example of this coin by PCGS qualifies as the finest known, without any question. >>

Is so wrong I don't even know where to begin since the vast majority of British and European coins have yet to be graded. I have no doubt this one would be very high in the condition census, but there are some very fine pieces in the BM and Ashmolean (as examples) which I saw many years ago. crypto79 is correct in his statement, it is certainly the finest graded. >>

Until you get a coin in PCGS plastic that is higher than this grade, it is the finest known. You can't seriously think someone will buy a raw coin for more money than the highest graded PCGS example can you? Auction houses won't even sell them.

Now if the eBay seller who has been popular in threads lately gets his hands on it, it will automatically become a PF68!! Then you will really have the finest!

bidask · May 4, 2014 11:22AM

<< Has anyone checked the CGS pop report? >>

They don't have much over there that I could see. I could not find even one speciman graded of this date and type.

This is a good source for auction history. Coin Archives

lkeigwin · May 4, 2014 11:27AM

A wonderful coin. Congrats.

Highest graded and finest known are not necessarily the same.
Lance.

JCMhouston · May 4, 2014 11:29AM

Sorry Wabbit, you simply aren't paying attention to the other 90% of the collecting world. Indeed I know many people, me included, that have paid more for a non- PCGS graded coin than the highest price ever paid for the same coin in PCGS plastic. If you collect world coins and don't buy raw you are missing a huge part of the market, that may change in time, but we aren't close yet. This year I bought one of the 5 known of a British pattern, two years ago the only known British proof 1964 12 penny outside the Royal Mint collection. And neither in PCGS plastic, the pattern wasn't in any kind of plastic.

And the vast majority of auction houses sell mostly non-slabbed coins. Have a good drink of koolaid and get out in the world a bit, have you ever been to a major European auction?

tradedollarnut · May 4, 2014 11:35AM

Until you get a coin in PCGS plastic that is higher than this grade, it is the finest known. You can't seriously think someone will buy a raw coin for more money than the highest graded PCGS example can you? Auction houses won't even sell them

This is just silly. I have done it multiple times - paid much much higher for a raw coin than I would for the highest graded PCGS specimen.

bidask · May 4, 2014 11:37AM

This is the finest known and the highest graded until someone shows me a better coin be it raw or slabbed.

The Europeans are notorious for handling their raw coins poorly.

Like with their thumb and fingerprints on the face of the coins.

EVillageProwler · May 4, 2014 5:32PM

This thread is becoming silly. It started out as a very pleasant thread about a very nice coin. Then, it descended into utter nonsense because one person stopped thinking rationally. Who here actually believes Americans invented numismatics? Who here thinks that there is no activity outside the US coin market?

I routinely buy expensive coins of high grade raw, rejecting many that I see in US TPG slabs in US auctions. I even crack them out of US TPG slabs where the holder don't really add to their US market value.

Wabbit - I invite you to venture to the dark side forum from time to time and read our threads. You may not collect world coins, but you may still enjoy the threads. Come, join us. We won't bite. It's free to read and participate.

EVP

BLUEJAYWAY · May 4, 2014 7:50PM

Simply put-Finest known graded?

CaptHenway · May 4, 2014 10:31PM

<< Simply put-Finest known graded? >>

Correct. There could easily be a nicer coin in a museum somewhere. Or more.

Wabbit2313 · May 4, 2014 11:17PM

<< Until you get a coin in PCGS plastic that is higher than this grade, it is the finest known. You can't seriously think someone will buy a raw coin for more money than the highest graded PCGS example can you? Auction houses won't even sell them

This is just silly. I have done it multiple times - paid much much higher for a raw coin than I would for the highest graded PCGS specimen. >>

If you do this often, you will lose a "much much" money often.

crypto79 · May 5, 2014 12:31AM

<< 

<< Until you get a coin in PCGS plastic that is higher than this grade, it is the finest known. You can't seriously think someone will buy a raw coin for more money than the highest graded PCGS example can you? Auction houses won't even sell them

This is just silly. I have done it multiple times - paid much much higher for a raw coin than I would for the highest graded PCGS specimen. >>

If you do this often, you will lose a "much much" money often.

>>

Giving financial and numismatic advice to TDN is rich coming from someone who hoards 2009 cents. Your lack of comprehension of the subject matter is showing and telling.

etexmike · May 5, 2014 1:19AM

A beautiful coin.

Mike

Zoins · May 5, 2014 1:23AM

Whether or not this is the finest known specimen is an easy question to answer:

Does anyone know of a finer one? And if so, can they point it out so it's known to the rest of us?

If not, then this is the finest known

It seems like people are speculating there may be a finer 'unknown' specimen, but that doesn't affect whether this is the finest 'known' or not.

Note, the above is independent of whether coins are slabbed or not, just whether they are known or not.

SamByrd · May 5, 2014 1:34AM

My view is simple it's a great coin and a rare world class example. Simply amazing to see.

Very very few ever existed and a tiny amount are of that caliber.

ColonelJessup · May 5, 2014 1:41AM

<< This thread is becoming silly. It started out as a very pleasant thread about a very nice coin. Then, it descended into utter nonsense because one person stopped thinking rationally. Who here actually believes Americans invented numismatics? Who here thinks that there is no activity outside the US coin market? ....

EVP >>

+1

Perhaps Wabbit will enlighten us with pictures from his tours of European museums. An authoritative voice gets power from the depth, breadth and quality of the knowledge it presents in discussion of an issue.

Getting back on topic.

1) I'm pleased to see a coin so nice and with a cool story behind it. Its owner is getting much pleasure from his eye candy and the successful satisfaction (for now) of his hunger. And sharing the fun as amplified by the knowledge and connoisseurship behind it.
2) I checked PCGS pops and found an 1804 $1 in a PR68 grade. Am I reading that correctly? Is this news to anyone else? . . .

Wabbit2313 · May 5, 2014 2:02AM

I would love to see the Smart Alec (Aleck) responses if someone posted a raw coin on here saying it is the finest known. These same individuals would say, "why isn't it graded"? I stand by my comment. Until PCGS says so, it will not be considered as such.

As far a services. I love NGC and have a bunch of star graded coins and others, but, I don't make the rules, the market does. The market prefers PCGS, today anyway.

crazyhounddog · May 5, 2014 2:02AM

That's a beautiful piece!! Congrats!!

crypto79 · May 5, 2014 2:59AM

<< The size of someone's wallet doesn't mean that they can't receive or take advice from someone.
RO >>

For once we agree RO! for example I knew of a "collector" who has a decent amount of money but due to their mental insatiability, lack of technical comprehension and vivid imagination they are not qualified to give advice to just about anyone where I know of true students of the hobby who are only able to spend a few dollars a year and do so mostly on books who could out coin the best of us.

That said none of that applies here and you weighing in shows that the phrase "proof is in the pudding" is abstract to you as well.

leothelyon · May 5, 2014 3:02AM

Was this George III (George William Frederick; 4 June 1738[1] – 29 January 1820) was King of Great Britain and King of Ireland??
The colonies declared their independence in July 1776, listing grievances against the British king and legislature while asking the support of the populace. Among George's other offences, the Declaration charged, "He has abdicated Government here ... He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people."
If all true, why would you want such a coin?

To add the article. Looks just like the guy on the coin.

bidask · May 5, 2014 3:06AM

<< 

<< Simply put-Finest known graded? >>

Correct. There could easily be a nicer coin in a museum somewhere. Or more. >>

Captain, 'Easily'....Im not so sure about that given the mintage of 150, afterall its not an 1880's morgan dollar, .....but I guess you can generally say that about any coin.....that is, somewhere there is a better speciman ......

Colonel:

I did not see a proof 68 on the pops be it MS or Proof. Look under Great Britain bank dollar MS or Proof.

Proof 66 cameo is their highest designation ( the one in the OP) and MS 66 is their highest designation for MS.

For under 10k .

..............I had no problem bidding a new record for this coin.

bidask · May 5, 2014 3:08AM

<< Was this George III (George William Frederick; 4 June 1738[1] – 29 January 1820) was King of Great Britain and King of Ireland??
The colonies declared their independence in July 1776, listing grievances against the British king and legislature while asking the support of the populace. Among George's other offences, the Declaration charged, "He has abdicated Government here ... He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people."
If all true, why would you want such a coin?

To add the article. Looks just like the guy on the coin. >>

You sound like your a socially responsible coin collector!

ColonelJessup · May 5, 2014 4:39AM

<< 

<< 

<< Simply put-Finest known graded? >>

Correct. There could easily be a nicer coin in a museum somewhere. Or more. >>

Captain, 'Easily'....Im not so sure about that given the mintage of 150, afterall its not an 1880's morgan dollar, .....but I guess you can generally say that about any coin.....that is, somewhere there is a better speciman ......

Colonel:

I did not see a proof 68 on the pops be it MS or Proof. Look under Great Britain bank dollar MS or Proof.

Proof 66 cameo is their highest designation ( the one in the OP) and MS 66 is their highest designation for MS.

For under 10k .

..............I had no problem bidding a new record for this coin. >>

Oh, Great Britain 1804's. . .

Those critters are "rarer" than the US 1804. The Sultan of Muscat and Oman-Childs-Pogue coin is clearly not as relevant as I had hoped it to be.

After all, I'd hazard a guess at having seen virtually all the US 1804's up close and personal. So I'm an authority on 1804 $1's and it seems some respect should be accorded even if this is the first British 1804 I've ever seen or heard of. By the authority vested in me by.... by.... by..... hmmmmm. Like I said, I've seen more 1804 $1's than anyone here. At least anyone here today. And I never had to visit no damn foreign museum to see them. . . .

The only picture I've ever seen of a British 1804 $1 is this one. It's the Finest Known seen by me. In my own definitely-not-all-that-self-aggrandizing way, I do it so declare. And thusly it is so.

How can you argue with either my reasoning or methodology?

pmac · May 5, 2014 4:55AM

<< 

<< Was this George III (George William Frederick; 4 June 1738[1] – 29 January 1820) was King of Great Britain and King of Ireland??
The colonies declared their independence in July 1776, listing grievances against the British king and legislature while asking the support of the populace. Among George's other offences, the Declaration charged, "He has abdicated Government here ... He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people."
If all true, why would you want such a coin?

To add the article. Looks just like the guy on the coin. >>

You sound like your a socially responsible coin collector! >>

I was going to come up with a smart a-- comment like "It would not have been popular to show that to this thread when it was minted"

, but it was after I read this posting that I has second thoughts. Has this coin been shown to my friends on the "Darkside"?

coinhack · May 5, 2014 5:05AM

<< I would love to see the Smart Alec (Aleck) responses if someone posted a raw coin on here saying it is the finest known. These same individuals would say, "why isn't it graded"? I stand by my comment. Until PCGS says so, it will not be considered as such.

As far a services. I love NGC and have a bunch of star graded coins and others, but, I don't make the rules, the market does. The market prefers PCGS, today anyway. >>

That is a wild and broad assumption, and as you have stated it, is not true. Some coins sell for more in PCGS holders than they do in other holders or raw and some do not. Most common coins, that is, Morgan dollars or Saint Gaudens double eagles sell for little to no difference. Many other examples.

I was just in a large coin and bullion dealer and they were selling 1/4 ounce American Gold Eagles for $366 dollars raw and had the same coins in PCGS MS69 First Strike holders for the same price.

To stay on topic with the op, world coins is an area that PCGS does not rule. The vast majority of graded coins, probably 75% are not in PCGS holders and they are not the preferred holder. In this case I doubt the holder adds one cent of value to the op coin.

dbldie55 · May 5, 2014 5:41AM

<< I would love to see the Smart Alec (Aleck) responses if someone posted a raw coin on here saying it is the finest known. These same individuals would say, "why isn't it graded"? I stand by my comment. Until PCGS says so, it will not be considered as such.

As far a services. I love NGC and have a bunch of star graded coins and others, but, I don't make the rules, the market does. The market prefers PCGS, today anyway. >>

Last time I saw the 1949 Double Eagle, it was raw. I am sure it is the finest known. The current "finest" known 1893-S Morgan was sold at auction raw and the bidders knew exactly what they were bidding on.

Wabbit2313 · May 5, 2014 6:11AM

<< 

Last time I saw the 1949 Double Eagle, it was raw. I am sure it is the finest known. >>

I certainly hope it was raw, cause no grading company is putting it in a slab!

The word silly was used above, and it should be used here. Using a one of a kind example in this context? (Assuming the foolish comment meant to say 1849) Whatever.

Also, I just took a peek over at Legend. Couldn't find a raw coin anywhere, and have not seen a raw one get a CAC sticker either.

bidask · May 5, 2014 6:20AM

<< 

<< 

<< Was this George III (George William Frederick; 4 June 1738[1] – 29 January 1820) was King of Great Britain and King of Ireland??
The colonies declared their independence in July 1776, listing grievances against the British king and legislature while asking the support of the populace. Among George's other offences, the Declaration charged, "He has abdicated Government here ... He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people."
If all true, why would you want such a coin?

To add the article. Looks just like the guy on the coin. >>

You sound like your a socially responsible coin collector! >>

I was going to come up with a smart a-- comment like "It would not have been popular to show that to this thread when it was minted"

, but it was after I read this posting that I has second thoughts. Has this coin been shown to my friends on the "Darkside"? >>

Well, King George III was King of England for something like 59 years and yes his reign emcompassed the revolutionary war period with the colonists.

So somewhat a historical figure, you think?

ColonelJessup · May 5, 2014 6:36AM

<< .... The current "finest" known 1893-S Morgan was sold at auction raw and the bidders knew exactly what they were bidding on. >>

They current "finest known" 1893-S $1 is the Vermeule-Lee-Coronet coin. PCGS MS67. Now a very easy million bucks. It sold raw at its first and only auction appearance (11/2001) for (IIRC) $340K+15% to Dan Ratner bidding for Jack Lee.

You may be thinking of the ruined Norweb 1893-S. Sold raw in 1988. Formerly PCGS MS67, then, after Vermeule showed up, NGC MS67 and conserved for the owner by NGC/NCS in hopes of a 68 grade, it has maintained its numericgrade. The holder says so. Changes in surface texture having been made, the market now values it differently. It has appeared at auction within the past several years (IIRC twice, first time not selling), the second time bringing a bit in excess of 64 money !!!!!. Tied for highest graded and finest known, at least a tenth of a technical point higher than the Vermeule coin. Then.... Now....? "Oops" doesn't quite cover it.

And then raw, as now slabbed, the bidders knew what they were looking at. The holder doesn't matter for either of these coins.

But pissing contests DO matter, so ignore your search for deeper meaning and quibble semantics to your blessed little heart's content.

I take it the OP's coin is no longer of interest. I like it and might want to know more about it, but bigger issues have emerged.

TDN's take on this topic is SO right on.....

dbldie55 · May 5, 2014 6:38AM

I was speaking of the Vermeule coin (my dealer was the under bidder)

ColonelJessup · May 5, 2014 6:51AM

<< ...

The word silly was used above, and it should be used here. Using a one of a kind example in this context? >>

Every finest known is, by definition, one-of-kind. The absurdist nature of the unique example used actually underscores the ironic skepticism with which most pronouncements of this nature are greeted.

I guess in the end it's about perspective.

Remember the race between the Russian and the American horse 50 years ago?

Here it was reported that the US horse won. In Moscow, the news was that the Russian horse had come in second and the American horse next to last.

Nuance, anyone? . . . .

tradedollarnut · May 5, 2014 7:58AM

Speaking of Vermuele - I paid $64k for what was undoubtably the finest 1873-CC trade dollar. RAW. The finest I had seen was a pretty bad PCGS MS64 for half that money. Current market value somewhere near $200k

Or how about the Amon Carter gem 1874-CC trade dollar I bought in the early 2000s for $54k - double what the finest graded PCGS coin at the time wishes that it had sold for...RAW. Current market value somewhere near $200k

I will buy most anything raw if I believe in the coin. For prices that surprise you - and may be multiples of what the finest graded coin sells at...

coinkat · May 5, 2014 8:09AM

Great looking coin.

I will just refrain from commenting further.

SeattleSlammer · May 5, 2014 8:10AM

Congrats bidask, very cool! I'd love to see slab shots, too, with a bit more direct angle on the pics to show off that CAMEO.....

EVillageProwler · May 5, 2014 8:11AM

Why is RO commenting in this thread seemingly solely as an antagonist to Crypto79? That doesn't seem like a value-added contribution to me.

Why are veteran folks trying so hard to educate Wabbit? The market will dictate matters. A fool and his money will soon be parted, right?

Why is TDN offering his bonafides to someone who doesn't care?

Seriously, mon Colonel is correct in trying to get us back to the OP and its subject coin which, by most objective standards, is one heck of a nice coin. Congrats to bidask on his acquisition.

EVP

CaptHenway · May 5, 2014 8:14AM

A danged pretty coin, regardless of what the rest of the world looks like.

SeattleSlammer · May 5, 2014 8:14AM

<< Why is RO commenting in this thread seemingly solely as an antagonist to Crypto79? That doesn't seem like a value-added contribution to me. >>

.......because they are MORTAL FORUM ENEMIES!!

But they both have a great history of knowledge and contribution..........making them both priceless IMHO.

My proof 1804 dollar

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