<< <i>If the coin were to be resubmitted, it might make more sense to crack it and resubmit as PCGS may give you only a one point uptick. Maybe Julian is correct in saying it should be a 66. But cracked out it could just come back a 63. >>
If you think a currently graded MS64 coin that someone on PCGS's Board of Experts thinks is a 66 might come back as a 63 if cracked out, you apparently don't believe that *somebody* knows how to grade. Whether it's PCGS themselves or one of their experts, only you can say.
<< <i>If you think a currently graded MS64 coin that someone on PCGS's Board of Experts thinks is a 66 might come back as a 63 if cracked out, you apparently don't believe that *somebody* knows how to grade >>
Clearly someone does not know how to grade, as the NGC and PCGS numbers were off by two points from the opinion of a board of experts member. The coin looks to me more 66 than 64, but all three parties have had the advantage of the coin in hand.
<< If you think a currently graded MS64 coin that someone on PCGS's Board of Experts thinks is a 66 might come back as a 63 if cracked out, you apparently don't believe that *somebody* knows how to grade. Whether it's PCGS themselves or one of their experts, only you can say. >>
Mr. Potatohead,
In my "regular" business, I cannot only focus on upside, I always have to weigh downside liabilities. I encounter "expert" evaluators all of the time. But they only render an opinion, not a guarantee. PCGS provides a guarantee and Leidman only renders an opinion. I would gladly deal with Mr. Leidman, but on my terms, not his.
<< If you think a currently graded MS64 coin that someone on PCGS's Board of Experts thinks is a 66 might come back as a 63 if cracked out, you apparently don't believe that *somebody* knows how to grade. Whether it's PCGS themselves or one of their experts, only you can say. >>
Mr. Potatohead,
In my "regular" business, I cannot only focus on upside, I always have to weigh downside liabilities. I encounter "expert" evaluators all of the time. But they only render an opinion, not a guarantee. PCGS provides a guarantee and Leidman only renders an opinion. I would gladly deal with Mr. Leidman, but on my terms, not his.
Maybe you pay MSRP for your cars?
OINK
OldIndian,
Why are you convinced the buyer would be trusting the sellers credentials and not their own eyes? Regarding your other recent statement, I find the best interaction with my customers occurs with respect to both parties "terms", not just mine.
OINK- I guess you're not going to explain why you think PCGS might grade a currently graded MS64 coin as a 63 when one of their experts thinks it's a 66, then. Fair enough- I wouldn't want to have to try that myself.
I joke, jest, tease, and generally like most people. In closing out my participation in this thread, I would suggest anyone who is unable to figure out this ebay seller, take the question here, directly. To a degree the thread does serve a useful purpose. At least from this perspective :
" It doesn't matter if they talk bad or good about you, so long as they talk about you "
<<Why are you convinced the buyer would be trusting the sellers credentials and not their own eyes? Regarding your other recent statement, I find the best interaction with my customers occurs with respect to both parties "terms", not just mine. >>
Eric,
When dealing on an iinternet sale, not at a coin show when the actual coin is in hand, I do not want my eyes to have to be in play, only the certification. And the certification can be negotiable, just as Mr. Leidman is doing. I do not particularily want to have to travel to a coins show just to buy coins, unless I can justify the travel cost against the cost of the coins purchased. If I only want to purchase about $10,000 in coins, it is hard to justify $3,000 travel and hotel costs. So, when you have to buy coins "out of hand" you do not EVER put yourself in a position of a stupid loss.
I am not unreasonable on terms, but if I am the buyer, the seller will have to agree to certain of my terms. Does the gold not still rule?? The dealer probably needs to sell me the coins much more than I need them.
<< <i><<Why are you convinced the buyer would be trusting the sellers credentials and not their own eyes? Regarding your other recent statement, I find the best interaction with my customers occurs with respect to both parties "terms", not just mine. >>
Eric,
When dealing on an iinternet sale, not at a coin show when the actual coin is in hand, I do not want my eyes to have to be in play, only the certification. And the certification can be negotiable, just as Mr. Leidman is doing. I do not particularily want to have to travel to a coins show just to buy coins, unless I can justify the travel cost against the cost of the coins purchased. If I only want to purchase about $10,000 in coins, it is hard to justify $3,000 travel and hotel costs. So, when you have to buy coins "out of hand" you do not EVER put yourself in a position of a stupid loss.
I am not unreasonable on terms, but if I am the buyer, the seller will have to agree to certain of my terms. Does the gold not still rule?? The dealer probably needs to sell me the coins much more than I need them.
OINK >>
Hi again
You could be mistaken for buying plastic and opinions. You...don't want to use or trust your eyes? I must recuse myself from this thread. I am misunderstanding something. Oh gee...You flat out said "Mr. Leidman's credentials are exquisite and his inventory is amongst the best that I have ever seen. But I do not think that he got there by selling coins at fair market value." - how could you know that? I am speechless really. "So, when you have to buy coins "out of hand" you do not EVER put yourself in a position of a stupid loss." - this may be academic but he has a return policy? I really gotta go now.
<<OINK- I guess you're not going to explain why you think PCGS might grade a currently graded MS64 coin as a 63 when one of their experts thinks it's a 66>>
To submit a MS64 coin to PCGS under reconsideration might get you a 64+ or if lucky a 65. A +2 point increase happens what % of the time? The coin might very well be a 66, but to have any chance of getting there without making a career of the coin is to submit it RAW and let the PCGS rule. Cracked out the coins could have flaws that PCGS would net grade to 63. I cannot tell from pictures. I would offer 64 money, or I would offer 63 money plus 1/2 the upgraded differential. Why does not a PCGS Expert not just submit the coin for reconsideration to resolve the issue of reasonable grade? Why does the buyer have to take the grading risk with PCGS?????
<<You could be mistaken for buying plastic and opinions. You...don't want to use or trust your eyes?>>
I LIKE the PCGS model, their rating will be expertly opinioned and guaranteed, and I can feel comfortable buying their plastic based upon their opinion. Unless you are buying cons that are over $50,000 in value, it does not make economic sense to travel to the coin so that you can see it in hand. In many respects my eyes are irrelevent except that if find I don't like the look of the coin. But I do not have the grading expertise of PCGS, if you know what I mean. I may disagree with their grade, but it is a waste of time to fight City Hall, or HRH as is more appropiately stated.
I find little difference between used car dealers and used coin dealers. Their story is very much the same.
<<In closing out my participation in this thread, I would suggest anyone who is unable to figure out this ebay seller, take the question here, directly.>>
Obviously, a PCGS Expert sugesting a MS64 is really a MS66 is a HUGE problemo for the market........
<< <i>I find little difference between used car dealers and used coin dealers. Their story is very much the same.
OINK >>
Oh, I see - you are listening to that noise? I am using my eyes, looking at the item...thinking, learning, maybe taking that risk...authenticating and pricing, determining frequency, buying raw and loose, often from the hip now at 44...and doing OK. It's a different field. No grading systems, no price guides, no pop reports. Hardly auction results of meaning. Nothing. No net. I like it. The other dealers of stuff I specialize in charge very different $ for the same stuff I sell. But they are getting at most 1/3 what I get - maybe that is why I am not overly concerned with their practices? I learned from them. Can my customers flip and make $ still? Yes. Do some people pay more because so-and-so sold it, or owned it, authenticated it, published it or exhibited or whatever (or maybe even graded it!)? Yes - but that is not going to help much at sales time anymore than here - to me. I don't know what to feel for the person who thinks it will influence the outcome more than the coin and its qualities. I suspect even some big pedigree coins will sell for less down the line when some look more at the coin and less at the name.
Ownership adds a point. I know that much. Maybe expertise adds 2 . I don't see any problems except with those who cannot accept other's opinions. That's what they are. Okay, now I'm finished. It's bedtime.
<< <i>Ownership adds a point. I know that much. Maybe expertise adds 2 . I don't see any problems except with those who cannot accept other's opinions. That's what they are. Okay, now I'm finished. It's bedtime. >>
Two of my colleagues have suggested that I respond to this thread.
Pricing and grading are personal.
I have been dealing in coins for nearly 50 years.
I have definite opinions on the state of preservation of various coins and consequently the values of the same.
Neither the TPG's or myself are perfect. We both have opinions.
The coin in question here was part of the Charles Wormser estate sold by the Goldbergs in an earlier professional life (Superior). It is a magnificent Gem coin and I would suggest that anyone commenting on the price of this coin, examine it in person before denigrating my opinion.
Kindly do not question my asking prices because you are unable to buy them for what you think is fair.
There is no one forcing anyone to buy anything.
Numismatics is a luxury.
No one has to collect coins.
I choose to wait until I find someone that appreciates this coin.
I am not selling this coin or any coin for that matter as a good investment.
Again, remember that numismatics is a luxury.
PNG member, numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows. I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
Julian this statement is very bold "Kindly do not question my asking prices because you are unable to buy them for what you think is fair", to ask someone to not have an opinion is counter productive. Just because you or anyone else states a price does not make it right and
beyond being questioned. I do not believe you think you are asking an unfair price for an exceptional coin but others may not agree with your determination, without the ability to disagree with your determination all TPGs should just close shop and the coin hobby (luxury)
should just depend on you and your determination of grade and price. This is something I do not believe will happen no one person can have the total and only say in a free market economy and or society. I appreciate your opinions and that you are defending your position
clearly as many in the dealer community of this hobby do not. As to this hobby being a luxury I would in part disagree as coins of interest can be found in pocket change or even on the ground thus making this hobby to the lowest of us in society not just the privileged.
Opinions are just that no matter how right or wrong we all have them and those opinions should be freely given without someone saying do not question me or my opinions as we are not at this point a communist country or dictator ship.
Well done ranting now and my opinion is nice coin but to me the price is to high for it's grade of which has to be considered in the current market set up.
Julian , as I have mentioned earlier, my great concern in selling a slabbed ms64 coin for ms66 money, is how in the heck is this buyer (or his family) going to even come close to recouping his money when the time comes to sell this coin?
I hope you have a very fair buy-back policy.
"Gold is money, and nothing else" (JP Morgan, 1912)
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
<< <i>Julian , as I have mentioned earlier, my great concern in selling a slabbed ms64 coin for ms66 money, is how in the heck is this buyer (or his family) going to even come close to recouping his money when the time comes to sell this coin? >>
Suppose, instead of an expensive coin, the buyer spends his money on a boat. How in the heck is this buyer (or his family) going to even come close to recouping his money when the time comes to sell this boat? Rhetorical question, of course.
Back on topic, Julian's already answered you...
"I am not selling this coin or any coin for that matter as a good investment."
Too many buyers seem to think that "collectible coins" and "guaranteed moneymaking investments" are synonymous terms. Let me know when you find someone who sells the latter and I'm all in. Also...Show me someone who always profits on everything he/she ever owned and I'll show you someone who's delusional or simply a prevaricator.
I think Julian made it fairly plain that he's selling it as a high grade collectible coin, not an investment vehicle. Argue grade all you want, but at the end of the day he wants $X for it; buy it or don't.
<< <i>I think Julian made it fairly plain that he's selling it as a high grade collectible coin, not an investment vehicle. Argue grade all you want, but at the end of the day he wants $X for it; buy it or don't. >>
Well stated. TPG's and online selling has commoditized collectible coinage. Many of us look at coins for the flip value now or in the future. Some (certainly not all) high value collectors just want the unusually nice coin and give little regard to resale.
I thank you very much for entering your opinion on this forum. It would seem that you are a hero amongst the dealers on this forum and might be reviled amongst the collectors on this forum. Your inventory is a testament to your success in this business, as is your appointment to the PCGS Board of Experts, and nobody on this forum has questioned your expertise to my knowledge. Except when you try to elevate a PCGS MS64 to a MS66 based upon your opinion.
The simple explanation is that you have submitted this coin for reconsideration and it remains at MS64. The eye appeal is high but there are technical issues that limit the grade, but it looks like MS66. And if it looks like a MS66 you might find someone who just like the "looks" and does not care about the technical imperfections. Perhaps you will find that buyer. But from a collector's standpoint, one might think that ALL of your coins are overpriced by two grades. Without reviewing your entire inventory, which would be a major undertaking, I would suggest that you are doing much more harm than benefit by actively selling this coin with the explanation that it is really an MS66 in MS64 disguise.
This forum is a great venue for dealers and collectors to share their opinions, and those opinions are often divergent. You have every right to ask MS66 money for a MS64 coin. But understand that some of us resent your override on the PCGS grading system, especially when you are on the PCGS Board of Experts.
Present day buy a TPG slab in MS64--- then sell to buyer as "This should upgrade to a MS65" Asking price halfway between 64 and 65, or even a 65 price.
This" should upgrade or slab higher" story I hear with regularity.
Even a few TPG graders who I trust more with such a statement have steered me wrong a few times.
I do not allow that statement to make my mind up anymore. If you want more get it upgraded, then we will talk.
<< <i>I started this thread and posted on page 1 that I was finished with it, but I've thought of one disturbing fact.
After said seller sells his slabbed ms64 coin to a buyer as an ms66 (his grade), what happens after 25 years when the said seller and buyer are no longer around ( retired or deceased) and the buyer's family now tries to sell this slabbed ms64 coin (with a list value of $500) when in fact the buyer paid for an ms66 (a $15,000 price tag)?
What options are available to the family to recoup this investment?
It is this situation specifically where I feel the seller can be looked upon as taking financial advantage of the buyer.
How does one recoup ms66 money from a slabbed ms64 coin?
Tell me, I'm all ears. >>
They won't, they are definitely the end user! What I am wondering is where this buyer who is going to let himself get dumped on big time paying 66 money for a coin in a 64 holder? If they shop it around the bourse at a show when its time to sell, trying to get 66 money on a slabbed 64 coin there is not a dealer in the room who would pay them above 64 money or care a hoot in the world who they bought the coin from. As a matter of fact I believe they would be laughed at. Were someone to come to my table at a show (I don't care if everybody thinks they are the God of coins) and offer me a 64 coin with a lot of blah blah blah how its a 66, trying to keep a straight face, I would pull out my blue sheet and offer them MS64 CCDN bid for the coin just to throw some water on it. Hey wanna get 66 money for your 64 holdered coin on the bay - put in an auction at 99c starting bid and lets see what the market says.
<< <i>Were someone to come to my table at a show (I don't care if everybody thinks they are the God of coins) and offer me a 64 coin with a lot of blah blah blah how its a 66, >>
But what if you were convinced upon examining the coin that it was an MS66. Would you then pay a premium? I would.
<< <i>Were someone to come to my table at a show (I don't care if everybody thinks they are the God of coins) and offer me a 64 coin with a lot of blah blah blah how its a 66, >>
But what if you were convinced upon examining the coin that it was an MS66. Would you then pay a premium? I would. >>
Assuming I was not ticked at the guys pitch, I probably would make my best offer and it might be slightly above 64 Bid if I really liked the coin but nowhere near 65 money. My being convinced its a 66 coin does not mean the graders will feel the same way. The proof in the pudding is what is the TPG going to grade it when I submit it. The oldest trick in the world sellers use on buyers is the ole "its grossly under graded" line. Don't fall for it. If the coin really is undergraded then 1 why has he not sold it and 2 why has he not set it aside to resubmit for the higher grade.
<<Assuming I was not ticked at the guys pitch, I probably would make my best offer and it might be slightly above 64 Bid if I really liked the coin but nowhere near 65 money. My being convinced its a 66 coin does not mean the graders will feel the same way. The proof in the pudding is what is the TPG going to grade it when I submit it. The oldest trick in the world sellers use on buyers is the ole "its grossly under graded" line. Don't fall for it. If the coin really is undergraded then 1 why has he not sold it and 2 why has he not set it aside to resubmit for the higher grade. >>
Funny how most on this forum buy the coin and not the holder or sticker. Now we have to hear the garbage that buying the dealer's reputation is OK????? Please. I'd rather buy the PCGS plastic holder.
I am annoyed but not surprised how the most basic nickel and dime collectors/"dealers" are the ones most offended by a man they don't know on stuff they don't really understand with material they can't afford. Their self righteous indignation does not impress me.
<< <i>Now we have to hear the garbage that buying the dealer's reputation is OK????? >>
Who said that? >>
I dunno, I lost much interest around "I do not want to use my eyes" if that helps.
<<I am annoyed but not surprised how the most basic nickel and dime collectors/"dealers" are the ones most offended by a man the don't know on stuff they don't really understand with material they can't afford. Their self righteous indignation does not impress me.>> - Crypto79
I've been dropping in on this thread for a few days now. Find it hard to believe that it's over 7 pages now. Here is my two cents worth.
Visited Julian's table at the '14 FUN show. What caught my eye was a nice rimmed toned bust half in high grade. Quickly looked at my PCGS price guide app. and it was looking like the 4k range. Asked for a best price and got back a 10k number. Politely declined and moved on, as we should do with this thread. Somebody post the animated "beating a dead horse" icon PLEASE.
<< <i>Funny how most on this forum buy the coin and not the holder or sticker. Now we have to hear the garbage that buying the dealer's reputation is OK????? Please. I'd rather buy the PCGS plastic holder. >>
Or of course one could buy the coin. Under graded coins are infrequent, but they do come along. I have paid substantial premiums for Morgan dollars on those occasions.
<<Visited Julian's table at the '14 FUN show. What caught my eye was a nice rimmed toned bust half in high grade. Quickly looked at my PCGS price guide app. and it was looking like the 4k range. Asked for a best price and got back a 10k number. Politely declined and moved on, as we should do with this thread. Somebody post the animated "beating a dead horse" icon PLEASE. >>
Thank you, bolivarshagnmasty,
From a collector's viewpoint it is significant to know that Julian is a high margin dealer. Those that defend him on this forum are dealers that would love to be able to leverage their own reputation in a coin transaction, just like Julian has done for 50 years. At one time it used to be that a dealer could sell a UNC for BU Gem, and the buyer was at the mercy of the dealer and his expertise. TPG's now trump the dealer's expertise and not to the benefit of the dealers. Old dealers like Mr. Leidman will have little respect for TPG's and "new dealers" want to employ Mr. Leidman's business model.
From a collector's standpoint coins NEED to be a commodity, but from a dealer's standpoint ( such as the latest posters on this thread) their financial viability is threatened from a commodity evaluation. I was out of collecting for many years. I only returned to the hobby because of the TPG services that allow me an independent opinion of value. I very much value my relationship with PCGS and consider them to be a partner in assembling a great collection. Dealers can be very helpful in dealing with TPG coins, but it is very distracting to have a dealer suggest that a TPG rating should be 66 instead of 64. This practice should be grounds for decertification from PNG, et al.
I have purchased significant coins from Eagle Eye and Legend, and others, and never have any attempted to describe a 64 coin as really a 66. We as collectors are buying coins, not used cars or investments. The PCGS grade is what it is. It is a standard. And that standard should not be misrepresented. By ANYONE!
<< <i> We as collectors are buying coins, not used cars or investments. The PCGS grade is what it is. It is a standard. And that standard should not be misrepresented. By ANYONE! >>
If you are not capable of grading coins, your logic makes sense,
Well I hate to pop somebody's balloon but a 10K price for a coin with a market value of 4K is not a working business model. Not gonna happen.
That's 250% over market retail - your blowing in the wind with me. And I don't care about some lame argument its under graded or everybody thinks the seller is some coin god.
<< <i>What's funny is if JA (CAC) said something was two grades undergraded, few would question it. Julian's credentials are at least as solid as JA's. >>
Does Jullian pay 65 money for the yellow anacs 63 he feels is undergraded? >>
If he thinks it's worth 65 money, yes. One thing that he has never been afraid of is putting his money where his mouth is. Believe it or not, there are still some people out there who SIMPLY DON"T GIVE A DAMN what the label says. They price a coin based on what they think its value is.
Just because I'm old doesn't mean I don't love to look at a pretty bust.
I have purchased significant coins from Eagle Eye and Legend, and others, and never have any attempted to describe a 64 coin as really a 66. We as collectors are buying coins, not used cars or investments. The PCGS grade is what it is. It is a standard. And that standard should not be misrepresented. By ANYONE!
OINK >>
If some web programmer mistakenly altered the 64 coin value and accidentally multiplied it by 10 then you would pay that price?
You could change every single price tomorrow and I wouldn't notice because I don't look at it. If a price feels too high I pass on the coin.
I sell truck parts on ebay . There is one particular part , that is very commonly found by me and easy to remove (5 minutes literally) I always sold for 29.99 . One day while checking to see what others were asking I saw the same part being listed at 249.99 Did I raise my price to 248.99 ? No but I went up to 49.99 and I'm selling at the same pace as before . I was not getting as much as I could before at 29.99 , I'm getting more now but maybe I can go higher . Maybe I'll go to 99.99 , will it sell ? Its a part that can't be bought at a store , Ford no longer makes it. No one else does either , on the other hand on older trucks people often decide to do without certain things if they cost too much. There is a point where no one will buy it and 249 .99 is above that point.
Free listings by the bucketful allow price discovery by just listing and seeing what happens. You learn more from a best offer that never sells than from a listing that sells in 5 minutes.
I list things that I overprice or restrict refusing to ship just to get people to contact me and on rare items that works very well.
Julian can post a coin just to get pictures out on the internet . Someone can go to the store based on those pictures and buy it in person.
So what if they do? No one actually needs a coin , unless they are standing at a payphone. Most collectors are weirdos , the whole business sort of revolves around that.
I have purchased significant coins from Eagle Eye and Legend, and others, and never have any attempted to describe a 64 coin as really a 66. We as collectors are buying coins, not used cars or investments. The PCGS grade is what it is. It is a standard. And that standard should not be misrepresented. By ANYONE!
OINK >>
If some web programmer mistakenly altered the 64 coin value and accidentally multiplied it by 10 then you would pay that price?
You could change every single price tomorrow and I wouldn't notice because I don't look at it. If a price feels too high I pass on the coin.
I sell truck parts on ebay . There is one particular part , that is very commonly found by me and easy to remove (5 minutes literally) I always sold for 29.99 . One day while checking to see what others were asking I saw the same part being listed at 249.99 Did I raise my price to 248.99 ? No but I went up to 49.99 and I'm selling at the same pace as before . I was not getting as much as I could before at 29.99 , I'm getting more now but maybe I can go higher . Maybe I'll go to 99.99 , will it sell ? Its a part that can't be bought at a store , Ford no longer makes it. No one else does either , on the other hand on older trucks people often decide to do without certain things if they cost too much. There is a point where no one will buy it and 249 .99 is above that point.
Free listings by the bucketful allow price discovery by just listing and seeing what happens. You learn more from a best offer that never sells than from a listing that sells in 5 minutes.
I list things that I overprice or restrict refusing to ship just to get people to contact me and on rare items that works very well.
Julian can post a coin just to get pictures out on the internet . Someone can go to the store based on those pictures and buy it in person.
So what if they do? No one actually needs a coin , unless they are standing at a payphone. Most collectors are weirdos , the whole business sort of revolves around that. >>
+1
And I've seen this same post many times before cloaked in a similar debate about extreme premiums for amazingly toned coins.
Comments
<< <i>If the coin were to be resubmitted, it might make more sense to crack it and resubmit as PCGS may give you only a one point uptick. Maybe Julian is correct in saying it should be a 66. But cracked out it could just come back a 63. >>
If you think a currently graded MS64 coin that someone on PCGS's Board of Experts thinks is a 66 might come back as a 63 if cracked out, you apparently don't believe that *somebody* knows how to grade. Whether it's PCGS themselves or one of their experts, only you can say.
<< <i>If you think a currently graded MS64 coin that someone on PCGS's Board of Experts thinks is a 66 might come back as a 63 if cracked out, you apparently don't believe that *somebody* knows how to grade >>
Clearly someone does not know how to grade, as the NGC and PCGS numbers were off by two points from the opinion of a board of experts member. The coin looks to me more 66 than 64, but all three parties have had the advantage of the coin in hand.
If you think a currently graded MS64 coin that someone on PCGS's Board of Experts thinks is a 66 might come back as a 63 if cracked out, you apparently don't believe that *somebody* knows how to grade. Whether it's PCGS themselves or one of their experts, only you can say. >>
Mr. Potatohead,
In my "regular" business, I cannot only focus on upside, I always have to weigh downside liabilities. I encounter "expert" evaluators all of the time. But they only render an opinion, not a guarantee. PCGS provides a guarantee and Leidman only renders an opinion. I would gladly deal with Mr. Leidman, but on my terms, not his.
Maybe you pay MSRP for your cars?
OINK
If you think a currently graded MS64 coin that someone on PCGS's Board of Experts thinks is a 66 might come back as a 63 if cracked out, you apparently don't believe that *somebody* knows how to grade. Whether it's PCGS themselves or one of their experts, only you can say. >>
Mr. Potatohead,
In my "regular" business, I cannot only focus on upside, I always have to weigh downside liabilities. I encounter "expert" evaluators all of the time. But they only render an opinion, not a guarantee. PCGS provides a guarantee and Leidman only renders an opinion. I would gladly deal with Mr. Leidman, but on my terms, not his.
Maybe you pay MSRP for your cars?
OINK
OldIndian,
Why are you convinced the buyer would be trusting the sellers credentials and not their own eyes? Regarding your other recent statement, I find the best interaction with my customers occurs with respect to both parties "terms", not just mine.
Eric
In closing out my participation in this thread, I would suggest anyone who is unable to figure out this ebay seller, take the question here, directly. To a degree the thread does serve a useful purpose. At least from this perspective :
" It doesn't matter if they talk bad or good about you, so long as they talk about you "
https://acoinshop.com/ —-> https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
>>
Eric,
When dealing on an iinternet sale, not at a coin show when the actual coin is in hand, I do not want my eyes to have to be in play, only the certification. And the certification can be negotiable, just as Mr. Leidman is doing. I do not particularily want to have to travel to a coins show just to buy coins, unless I can justify the travel cost against the cost of the coins purchased. If I only want to purchase about $10,000 in coins, it is hard to justify $3,000 travel and hotel costs. So, when you have to buy coins "out of hand" you do not EVER put yourself in a position of a stupid loss.
I am not unreasonable on terms, but if I am the buyer, the seller will have to agree to certain of my terms. Does the gold not still rule?? The dealer probably needs to sell me the coins much more than I need them.
OINK
<< <i><<Why are you convinced the buyer would be trusting the sellers credentials and not their own eyes? Regarding your other recent statement, I find the best interaction with my customers occurs with respect to both parties "terms", not just mine.
>>
Eric,
When dealing on an iinternet sale, not at a coin show when the actual coin is in hand, I do not want my eyes to have to be in play, only the certification. And the certification can be negotiable, just as Mr. Leidman is doing. I do not particularily want to have to travel to a coins show just to buy coins, unless I can justify the travel cost against the cost of the coins purchased. If I only want to purchase about $10,000 in coins, it is hard to justify $3,000 travel and hotel costs. So, when you have to buy coins "out of hand" you do not EVER put yourself in a position of a stupid loss.
I am not unreasonable on terms, but if I am the buyer, the seller will have to agree to certain of my terms. Does the gold not still rule?? The dealer probably needs to sell me the coins much more than I need them.
OINK >>
Hi again
You could be mistaken for buying plastic and opinions. You...don't want to use or trust your eyes? I must recuse myself from this thread. I am misunderstanding something.
Oh gee...You flat out said "Mr. Leidman's credentials are exquisite and his inventory is amongst the best that I have ever seen. But I do not think that he got there by selling coins at fair market value." - how could you know that? I am speechless really.
"So, when you have to buy coins "out of hand" you do not EVER put yourself in a position of a stupid loss." - this may be academic but he has a return policy?
I really gotta go now.
Eric
To submit a MS64 coin to PCGS under reconsideration might get you a 64+ or if lucky a 65. A +2 point increase happens what % of the time? The coin might very well be a 66, but to have any chance of getting there without making a career of the coin is to submit it RAW and let the PCGS rule. Cracked out the coins could have flaws that PCGS would net grade to 63. I cannot tell from pictures. I would offer 64 money, or I would offer 63 money plus 1/2 the upgraded differential. Why does not a PCGS Expert not just submit the coin for reconsideration to resolve the issue of reasonable grade? Why does the buyer have to take the grading risk with PCGS?????
OINK
I LIKE the PCGS model, their rating will be expertly opinioned and guaranteed, and I can feel comfortable buying their plastic based upon their opinion. Unless you are buying cons that are over $50,000 in value, it does not make economic sense to travel to the coin so that you can see it in hand. In many respects my eyes are irrelevent except that if find I don't like the look of the coin. But I do not have the grading expertise of PCGS, if you know what I mean. I may disagree with their grade, but it is a waste of time to fight City Hall, or HRH as is more appropiately stated.
I find little difference between used car dealers and used coin dealers. Their story is very much the same.
OINK
Obviously, a PCGS Expert sugesting a MS64 is really a MS66 is a HUGE problemo for the market........
OINK
<< <i>I find little difference between used car dealers and used coin dealers. Their story is very much the same.
OINK >>
Oh, I see - you are listening to that noise? I am using my eyes, looking at the item...thinking, learning, maybe taking that risk...authenticating and pricing, determining frequency, buying raw and loose, often from the hip now at 44...and doing OK. It's a different field. No grading systems, no price guides, no pop reports. Hardly auction results of meaning. Nothing. No net. I like it.
Eric
I don't see any problems except with those who cannot accept other's opinions. That's what they are.
Okay, now I'm finished. It's bedtime.
https://acoinshop.com/ —-> https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>Ownership adds a point. I know that much. Maybe expertise adds 2 .
I don't see any problems except with those who cannot accept other's opinions. That's what they are.
Okay, now I'm finished. It's bedtime. >>
You know, you are right.
And it is bedtime.
Eric
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. - Bastiat
Pricing and grading are personal.
I have been dealing in coins for nearly 50 years.
I have definite opinions on the state of preservation of various coins and consequently the values of the same.
Neither the TPG's or myself are perfect. We both have opinions.
The coin in question here was part of the Charles Wormser estate sold by the Goldbergs in an earlier professional life (Superior). It is a magnificent Gem coin and I would suggest that anyone commenting on the price of this coin, examine it in person before denigrating my opinion.
Kindly do not question my asking prices because you are unable to buy them for what you think is fair.
There is no one forcing anyone to buy anything.
Numismatics is a luxury.
No one has to collect coins.
I choose to wait until I find someone that appreciates this coin.
I am not selling this coin or any coin for that matter as a good investment.
Again, remember that numismatics is a luxury.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
beyond being questioned. I do not believe you think you are asking an unfair price for an exceptional coin but others may not agree with your determination, without the ability to disagree with your determination all TPGs should just close shop and the coin hobby (luxury)
should just depend on you and your determination of grade and price. This is something I do not believe will happen no one person can have the total and only say in a free market economy and or society. I appreciate your opinions and that you are defending your position
clearly as many in the dealer community of this hobby do not. As to this hobby being a luxury I would in part disagree as coins of interest can be found in pocket change or even on the ground thus making this hobby to the lowest of us in society not just the privileged.
Opinions are just that no matter how right or wrong we all have them and those opinions should be freely given without someone saying do not question me or my opinions as we are not at this point a communist country or dictator ship.
Well done ranting now and my opinion is nice coin but to me the price is to high for it's grade of which has to be considered in the current market set up.
I hope you have a very fair buy-back policy.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
<< <i>Julian , as I have mentioned earlier, my great concern in selling a slabbed ms64 coin for ms66 money, is how in the heck is this buyer (or his family) going to even come close to recouping his money when the time comes to sell this coin? >>
Suppose, instead of an expensive coin, the buyer spends his money on a boat. How in the heck is this buyer (or his family) going to even come close to recouping his money when the time comes to sell this boat? Rhetorical question, of course.
Back on topic, Julian's already answered you...
"I am not selling this coin or any coin for that matter as a good investment."
Also...Show me someone who always profits on everything he/she ever owned and I'll show you someone who's delusional or simply a prevaricator.
I think Julian made it fairly plain that he's selling it as a high grade collectible coin, not an investment vehicle. Argue grade all you want, but at the end of the day he wants $X for it; buy it or don't.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i>I think Julian made it fairly plain that he's selling it as a high grade collectible coin, not an investment vehicle. Argue grade all you want, but at the end of the day he wants $X for it; buy it or don't. >>
Well stated. TPG's and online selling has commoditized collectible coinage. Many of us look at coins for the flip value now or in the future. Some (certainly not all) high value collectors just want the unusually nice coin and give little regard to resale.
I thank you very much for entering your opinion on this forum. It would seem that you are a hero amongst the dealers on this forum and might be reviled amongst the collectors on this forum. Your inventory is a testament to your success in this business, as is your appointment to the PCGS Board of Experts, and nobody on this forum has questioned your expertise to my knowledge. Except when you try to elevate a PCGS MS64 to a MS66 based upon your opinion.
The simple explanation is that you have submitted this coin for reconsideration and it remains at MS64. The eye appeal is high but there are technical issues that limit the grade, but it looks like MS66. And if it looks like a MS66 you might find someone who just like the "looks" and does not care about the technical imperfections. Perhaps you will find that buyer. But from a collector's standpoint, one might think that ALL of your coins are overpriced by two grades. Without reviewing your entire inventory, which would be a major undertaking, I would suggest that you are doing much more harm than benefit by actively selling this coin with the explanation that it is really an MS66 in MS64 disguise.
This forum is a great venue for dealers and collectors to share their opinions, and those opinions are often divergent. You have every right to ask MS66 money for a MS64 coin. But understand that some of us resent your override on the PCGS grading system, especially when you are on the PCGS Board of Experts.
OINK
Old days RAW buy at AU sell as UNC.
Present day buy a TPG slab in MS64--- then sell to buyer as "This should upgrade to a MS65"
Asking price halfway between 64 and 65, or even a 65 price.
This" should upgrade or slab higher" story I hear with regularity.
Even a few TPG graders who I trust more with such a statement have steered me wrong
a few times.
I do not allow that statement to make my mind up anymore.
If you want more get it upgraded, then we will talk.
Krueger
<< <i>I started this thread and posted on page 1 that I was finished with it, but I've thought of one disturbing fact.
After said seller sells his slabbed ms64 coin to a buyer as an ms66 (his grade), what happens after 25 years when the said seller and buyer are no longer around ( retired or deceased) and the buyer's family now tries to sell this slabbed ms64 coin (with a list value of $500) when in fact the buyer paid for an ms66 (a $15,000 price tag)?
What options are available to the family to recoup this investment?
It is this situation specifically where I feel the seller can be looked upon as taking financial advantage of the buyer.
How does one recoup ms66 money from a slabbed ms64 coin?
Tell me, I'm all ears. >>
They won't, they are definitely the end user! What I am wondering is where this buyer who is going to let himself get dumped on big time paying 66 money for a coin in a 64 holder? If they shop it around the bourse at a show when its time to sell, trying to get 66 money on a slabbed 64 coin there is not a dealer in the room who would pay them above 64 money or care a hoot in the world who they bought the coin from. As a matter of fact I believe they would be laughed at. Were someone to come to my table at a show (I don't care if everybody thinks they are the God of coins) and offer me a 64 coin with a lot of blah blah blah how its a 66, trying to keep a straight face, I would pull out my blue sheet and offer them MS64 CCDN bid for the coin just to throw some water on it. Hey wanna get 66 money for your 64 holdered coin on the bay - put in an auction at 99c starting bid and lets see what the market says.
<< <i>You don't know what you are talking about, dealers who specialize in a series will pay more than guide for nice coins. >>
Oh really, like 30x lol? Or 66 money for a 64 holder coin? Go find him.
<< <i>Were someone to come to my table at a show (I don't care if everybody thinks they are the God of coins) and offer me a 64 coin with a lot of blah blah blah how its a 66, >>
But what if you were convinced upon examining the coin that it was an MS66. Would you then pay a premium? I would.
<< <i>
<< <i>Were someone to come to my table at a show (I don't care if everybody thinks they are the God of coins) and offer me a 64 coin with a lot of blah blah blah how its a 66, >>
But what if you were convinced upon examining the coin that it was an MS66. Would you then pay a premium? I would. >>
Assuming I was not ticked at the guys pitch, I probably would make my best offer and it might be slightly above 64 Bid if I really liked the coin but nowhere near 65 money. My being convinced its a 66 coin does not mean the graders will feel the same way. The proof in the pudding is what is the TPG going to grade it when I submit it. The oldest trick in the world sellers use on buyers is the ole "its grossly under graded" line. Don't fall for it. If the coin really is undergraded then 1 why has he not sold it and 2 why has he not set it aside to resubmit for the higher grade.
<< <i>Hard to have a dialogue with someone who keeps editing... >>
Like skateboarding on trampoline.
<< <i>
<< <i>Hard to have a dialogue with someone who keeps editing... >>
Like skateboarding on trampoline. >>
Like a Donkeys headgear.
>>
Funny how most on this forum buy the coin and not the holder or sticker. Now we have to hear the garbage that buying the dealer's reputation is OK????? Please. I'd rather buy the PCGS plastic holder.
OINK
<< <i>Now we have to hear the garbage that buying the dealer's reputation is OK????? >>
Who said that?
<< <i>
<< <i>Now we have to hear the garbage that buying the dealer's reputation is OK????? >>
Who said that? >>
I dunno, I lost much interest around "I do not want to use my eyes" if that helps.
<<I am annoyed but not surprised how the most basic nickel and dime collectors/"dealers" are the ones most offended by a man the don't know on stuff they don't really understand with material they can't afford. Their self righteous indignation does not impress me.>> - Crypto79
Crypto is essentially right on.
Eric
Julian Dropped it on ya and walked off on page 6
www.brunkauctions.com
Visited Julian's table at the '14 FUN show. What caught my eye was a nice rimmed toned bust half in high grade. Quickly looked at my PCGS price guide app. and it was looking like the 4k range. Asked for a best
price and got back a 10k number. Politely declined and moved on, as we should do with this thread.
Somebody post the animated "beating a dead horse" icon PLEASE.
<< <i>Funny how most on this forum buy the coin and not the holder or sticker. Now we have to hear the garbage that buying the dealer's reputation is OK????? Please. I'd rather buy the PCGS plastic holder. >>
Or of course one could buy the coin. Under graded coins are infrequent, but they do come along. I have paid substantial premiums for Morgan dollars on those occasions.
price and got back a 10k number. Politely declined and moved on, as we should do with this thread.
Somebody post the animated "beating a dead horse" icon PLEASE.
>>
Thank you, bolivarshagnmasty,
From a collector's viewpoint it is significant to know that Julian is a high margin dealer. Those that defend him on this forum are dealers that would love to be able to leverage their own reputation in a coin transaction, just like Julian has done for 50 years. At one time it used to be that a dealer could sell a UNC for BU Gem, and the buyer was at the mercy of the dealer and his expertise. TPG's now trump the dealer's expertise and not to the benefit of the dealers. Old dealers like Mr. Leidman will have little respect for TPG's and "new dealers" want to employ Mr. Leidman's business model.
From a collector's standpoint coins NEED to be a commodity, but from a dealer's standpoint ( such as the latest posters on this thread) their financial viability is threatened from a commodity evaluation. I was out of collecting for many years. I only returned to the hobby because of the TPG services that allow me an independent opinion of value. I very much value my relationship with PCGS and consider them to be a partner in assembling a great collection. Dealers can be very helpful in dealing with TPG coins, but it is very distracting to have a dealer suggest that a TPG rating should be 66 instead of 64. This practice should be grounds for decertification from PNG, et al.
I have purchased significant coins from Eagle Eye and Legend, and others, and never have any attempted to describe a 64 coin as really a 66. We as collectors are buying coins, not used cars or investments. The PCGS grade is what it is. It is a standard. And that standard should not be misrepresented. By ANYONE!
OINK
<< <i> We as collectors are buying coins, not used cars or investments. The PCGS grade is what it is. It is a standard. And that standard should not be misrepresented. By ANYONE! >>
If you are not capable of grading coins, your logic makes sense,
>>
I cannot grade PF66 and 67 IHC's from online photos, and maybe not even in hand. Can you?
OINK
That's 250% over market retail - your blowing in the wind with me. And I don't care about some lame argument its under graded or everybody thinks the seller is some coin god.
All I get from this thread is that there are a few of you who aren't going to be Julian's customer......And I bet he's okay with that
www.brunkauctions.com
<< <i>
<< <i>What's funny is if JA (CAC) said something was two grades undergraded, few would question it. Julian's credentials are at least as solid as JA's. >>
Does Jullian pay 65 money for the yellow anacs 63 he feels is undergraded? >>
If he thinks it's worth 65 money, yes. One thing that he has never been afraid of is putting his money where his mouth is. Believe it or not, there are still some people out there who SIMPLY DON"T GIVE A DAMN what the label says. They price a coin based on what they think its value is.
<< <i>
I have purchased significant coins from Eagle Eye and Legend, and others, and never have any attempted to describe a 64 coin as really a 66. We as collectors are buying coins, not used cars or investments. The PCGS grade is what it is. It is a standard. And that standard should not be misrepresented. By ANYONE!
OINK >>
If some web programmer mistakenly altered the 64 coin value and accidentally multiplied it by 10 then you would pay that price?
You could change every single price tomorrow and I wouldn't notice because I don't look at it. If a price feels too high I pass on the coin.
I sell truck parts on ebay . There is one particular part , that is very commonly found by me and easy to remove (5 minutes literally) I always sold for 29.99 . One day while checking to see what others were asking I saw the same part being listed at 249.99 Did I raise my price to 248.99 ? No but I went up to 49.99 and I'm selling at the same pace as before . I was not getting as much as I could before at 29.99 , I'm getting more now but maybe I can go higher . Maybe I'll go to 99.99 , will it sell ? Its a part that can't be bought at a store , Ford no longer makes it. No one else does either , on the other hand on older trucks people often decide to do without certain things if they cost too much. There is a point where no one will buy it and 249 .99 is above that point.
Free listings by the bucketful allow price discovery by just listing and seeing what happens. You learn more from a best offer that never sells than from a listing that sells in 5 minutes.
I list things that I overprice or restrict refusing to ship just to get people to contact me and on rare items that works very well.
Julian can post a coin just to get pictures out on the internet . Someone can go to the store based on those pictures and buy it in person.
So what if they do? No one actually needs a coin , unless they are standing at a payphone. Most collectors are weirdos , the whole business sort of revolves around that.
<< <i>
<< <i>
I have purchased significant coins from Eagle Eye and Legend, and others, and never have any attempted to describe a 64 coin as really a 66. We as collectors are buying coins, not used cars or investments. The PCGS grade is what it is. It is a standard. And that standard should not be misrepresented. By ANYONE!
OINK >>
If some web programmer mistakenly altered the 64 coin value and accidentally multiplied it by 10 then you would pay that price?
You could change every single price tomorrow and I wouldn't notice because I don't look at it. If a price feels too high I pass on the coin.
I sell truck parts on ebay . There is one particular part , that is very commonly found by me and easy to remove (5 minutes literally) I always sold for 29.99 . One day while checking to see what others were asking I saw the same part being listed at 249.99 Did I raise my price to 248.99 ? No but I went up to 49.99 and I'm selling at the same pace as before . I was not getting as much as I could before at 29.99 , I'm getting more now but maybe I can go higher . Maybe I'll go to 99.99 , will it sell ? Its a part that can't be bought at a store , Ford no longer makes it. No one else does either , on the other hand on older trucks people often decide to do without certain things if they cost too much. There is a point where no one will buy it and 249 .99 is above that point.
Free listings by the bucketful allow price discovery by just listing and seeing what happens. You learn more from a best offer that never sells than from a listing that sells in 5 minutes.
I list things that I overprice or restrict refusing to ship just to get people to contact me and on rare items that works very well.
Julian can post a coin just to get pictures out on the internet . Someone can go to the store based on those pictures and buy it in person.
So what if they do? No one actually needs a coin , unless they are standing at a payphone. Most collectors are weirdos , the whole business sort of revolves around that.
+1
And I've seen this same post many times before cloaked in a similar debate about extreme premiums for amazingly toned coins.