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How confident are you that YOU can spot fake TPG slabs?
291fifth
Posts: 25,182 ✭✭✭✭✭
I'm not confident at all and it is becoming a concern.
Am I the only one who feels this way?
What are the TPGs doing about this problem when these slabs appear in the US, where they can take legal action?
How about outside the US ... can they do anything?
Am I the only one who feels this way?
What are the TPGs doing about this problem when these slabs appear in the US, where they can take legal action?
How about outside the US ... can they do anything?
All glory is fleeting.
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I mostly focus on the coin anyway - so I could probably be tripped up by a fake slab fairly easily.
However, I don't feel the solution is wholly owned by the TPG's.....there are knockoffs of everything in the marketplace.
As usual, buyer beware.
there is more going on behind the scenes that we can even guess. even the hobby protection act was modified to accommodate this escalating issue(s).
it is hard to have faith or understand about possible actions/solutions w/o having some information about it and while i haven't seen it discussed here too much, there have been a few conversations about what can/is being done to address raw counterfeits and counterfeits in counterfeit slabs and even authentic coins in counterfeit slabs.
i agree that it isn't pcgs's responsibility but like ebay, one must protect their brand by acting to show they do care and to help thwart this type of activity. while i would like to see the TPGs talk more about this, on the legal side, i do understand why they don't and support it to some extent, especially in a public forum such as this.
the legal and emotional risk is too high than what is able to be accepted not to mention any disclosure issues probably would arise. we've proven it on numerous occasions here. emotional issues elicit emotional responses.
it would be a great topic though for the battle arena i proposed a while back and while it may have appeared as if i was being funny, i was being serious.
if one really wants to learn more about what is being done or attempted. learning to search court cases, case law etc. will yield more info that most would even desire to see.
hope it helps.
edited to add:
<< <i>How confident are you that YOU can spot fake TPG slabs? >>
- i feel rather confident but mostly if i can use the coin as part of the detection process. an authentic coin in a fake holder could be easily missed by me depending on the generation of holder. just like with raw coins, some are easy, some aren't. just depends on training and experience.
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It helps to do business with high volume, full-time dealers, especially those with good eyes, that have their ear to the ground. If a big fake hoard is dispersed into channels and they will know to be careful. Dealers in the know will know right away. Those on the fringes may not ever hear about it. I'd guess that millions of dollars worth of fake slabs are finding their ways into collections via Ebay and other channels every few months. The crude ones might be removed, but the high quality ones? Those can't be policed by examining photos. What does this mean? It means I've stopped buying from Ebay from unknown sellers. Same for small time venues. If there is any doubt, I stay away.
You can look up/verify any cert number online, even on any device.
You can also see the coin in hand and grade it, and if you can't, then the seller (like Heritage, etc.) takes the responsibility for it being genuine...
So why is this a problem?
Are you talking about bad sellers selling fakes on eBay?
You can look up/verify any cert number online, even on any device.
>>
And when you look up the cert there is often a TrueView image that will allow you to compare the bogus coin to the cert.
OINK
<< <i>I might not be seeing the whole picture [disclaimer] but why is this a problem? >>
you aren't.
it is unwise to group the entirety of numismatics into one group. between counterfeit coins, holders, medals, tokens, currency, etc, altered coins, added mintmarks and much much more, asking a question like what is this a problem seems a bit out of place to me. - i've probably done grouping before and i shouldn't.
i'll refute a couple of your examples, not to be argumentative or rude but to show this issue is not black and white. if a person doesn't study and then complains or gets hit, then i agree with your question.
<< <i>You can look up/verify any cert number online, even on any device. >>
- nearly a useless tool seeing how as the majority of cert #s i've looked up from counterfeits match an authentic one. kind of the same effect of weighing and/or measuring them or using a magnet(imo, any bad enough to "stick" to a magnet are bad enough to detect w/o one). sure it will get you a part of the way but on the whole, an unreliable methods imo.
<< <i>You can also see the coin in hand and grade it, and if you can't, then the seller (like Heritage, etc.) takes the responsibility for it being genuine >>
- these are far from the only types of sellers so expecting to be covered in every instance is not reliable.
i will go ahead and throw this one in too -
<< <i>often a TrueView image that will allow you to compare the bogus coin to the cert >>
- with most of the counterfeit certs that match an authentic coin, the majority do not have T.V., so this is not an effective fail-safe. people doing more image comps to share with all is really how we are going to start making some headway, or books, dvds, whatever. sure the idiots making these things will be able to use the info too but i'd rather have them get a bit better and bring the whole of numismatics up a few notches because imo, it is easier to detect high class III and above with some knowledge than trying to detect class II, low III with none.
i think the jist of it all is that people probably want to be able to relax and just trust their dealer and/or their experience but this is unfortunately not a reality because i've seen fakies/altered items in many well-known dealer booths/shops and since everyone in numismatics isn't going to do business with the elite small group of people that may be fortunate enough to never be fooled and thusly allow a customer to buy one unknowingly. i understand everyone is at different levels of knowledge about numismatics and then they have counterfeits on top of it all. it requires a lot of effort.
i do try to not be so hard on others (whether i accomplish this or not idk) because i am biased having looked at so many, some just seem like they would be obvious but i bet there are class IV and V out there, coins etc and holders, that i may not detect but the elite counterfeit detectors would wonder why i would/could miss them but they would have to realize that it is a life-long goal to be a master counterfeit detector. yes, i still think a person is accountable for their own actions but the unfortunately reality is that we are always going to have to be on our toes because of counterfeits, robberies, companies selling defunct products and dozens of other things. hard to protect one's self again all things at all times.
not attacking. just discussing, citing examples, offering opinions. if you catch me being hard on someone for not knowing, feel free to "nudge" me.
ok. i'm done typing for a while lol
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Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
A scammer could purchase a real coin in a legit slab and take pictures of it for his ebay listings copy it times 100 then ship the fakes to the buyer .
If it was something like a MS63 morgan in a common date and they were priced right they may not attract a lot of scrutiny.
<< <i>A scammer could purchase a real coin in a legit slab and take pictures of it for his ebay listings copy it times 100 then ship the fakes to the buyer .
If it was something like a MS63 morgan in a common date and they were priced right they may not attract a lot of scrutiny. >>
From what I have seen up until this point is that slabbed forgeries are +$1000 coins - stuff that might rarely purchase and I'd be extra careful about. If someone started polluting the mid grade/low end of the TPG market that would be it for me. There would be just too many scumbags to enjoy the hobby.
I really like NGC imaging each coin which is my first of second goto resource when authenticity is an issue.
Time for our host to do the same.
<< <i>I might not be seeing the whole picture [disclaimer] but why is this a problem?
You can look up/verify any cert number online, even on any device.
You can also see the coin in hand and grade it, and if you can't, then the seller (like Heritage, etc.) takes the responsibility for it being genuine...
So why is this a problem?
Are you talking about bad sellers selling fakes on eBay? >>
Why is it a problem? Like I wrote, I'd guess that millions of dollars worth of fake slabs are being moved on Ebay. Most of the buyers have no idea. This is a ticking time bomb. Some of those buyers resell their fakes. Some never sell and when they do it will be a terrible day for the heirs. The flippers might sell at the local coin club, to the local coin shop on the bid board, at the local flea market, at small shows where they set up as dealers. Again, the seller and buyers often have no idea they are trading in fakes. This gets the fakes to many low expertise venues.
As to learning to authenticate, maybe 5% of collectors have decent authentication skills, probably less. It is not a skill someone can learn casually, except to spot the low level fakes. Even for that 5%, top quality fakes will fool them or challenge them. Talk to the TPG authenticators off the record, and anyone with any sense will realize it is a tough game. The fakes are always getting better. Every time a new reference comes out, the best fakers are first in line to buy that reference book. At my local club, which averages 30 to 40 in attendance, there might be one or two collectors that have any skill at authentication. The rest have little to no skill at authentication. I wouldn't trust any of them to authenticate a high dollar raw coin. One of the smartest of the bunch recently brought in a 1916-D added mintmark dime that he bought as authentic. He looked at that dime very closely with a 10x loupe and got it wrong. I see the club sample as average, and these are the coin geeks that look at coins in person a lot. The ones sitting at home buying off Ebay likely have less skill on average than the club attendees.
As for high dollar items, in raw coins there have been fakes reported for low value items such as foreign minors, Civil War tokens, common large cents that might sell for $5, $10 or $20. If this is any indication, the fake slabbers either already have or likely will soon move down stream too. Why do it? A quick $50 or $100 adds up, if it is easy and the chance of getting caught is tiny.
PCGS slab looks like.
<< <i>My concern is that with the large number of slab varieties it may get confusing eventually. I think they should pick one slab style and keep it so we can get good at knowing what a real
PCGS slab looks like. >>
Well said.
How low can they go? I saw fake Sacajawea dollars on alibaba.com selling for under 10 cents each in lots of 10,000. There is 90 cents of upside on each if they would work in a vending machine.
<< <i>For myself, I feel fairly confident in my ability to detect such, but I am used to playing attention to miniscule details. I agree that for the better ones, taking only a casual glance could let me miss one. But as to fonts, its surprisingly hard to get them right, and just as easy to spot them done wrong.
I believe that anyone mostly looking at fonts is going to get burned. Some fakers took real inserts from cracked slabs and used them. Smart scammers can use a high quality scanner and a microscope for touch up, to get their fonts to 99.99% correct. A resourceful crew can get them close to right. The fakers can hire someone like you or have someone like you on staff to authenticate their fake fonts. They could hire crews that work on fake paper currency where the attention to detail tends to be 100x the level required to make a fake slab label and hologram.
You aren't the only person with your skill set. Anyone making high quality fakes tends to have an eye for miniscule details as well. Plus they have the feedback loop of rejects. The buyer often has no idea that they bought a fake, often times no one is checking their buys. Once near perfect, and the fakes are passing, the job is mostly done. There are so many legacy slabs that they don't have to change and update whenever the company changes.
there are numerous ones posted to this thread. if you know how to search a page, just type PIC to find all the instances where there is a link to an imaged fake slab.
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``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>Confident enough by looking at the coin, usually. Sometimes not, but it all depends. That's just me.
sums it up perfectly imo. most are case-by-case basis and how we are viewing the item(s).
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That's why I buy mostly from dealers or from major auction houses. At least that way you have some recourse......
sums it up perfectly imo. most are case-by-case basis and how we are viewing the item(s).
. >>
Thank you kindly. I think there is a large contingency of wise men and women, boys and girls who are as confident, but will NEVER post here.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>
<< <i>For myself, I feel fairly confident in my ability to detect such, but I am used to playing attention to miniscule details. I agree that for the better ones, taking only a casual glance could let me miss one. But as to fonts, its surprisingly hard to get them right, and just as easy to spot them done wrong.
I believe that anyone mostly looking at fonts is going to get burned. Some fakers took real inserts from cracked slabs and used them. Smart scammers can use a high quality scanner and a microscope for touch up, to get their fonts to 99.99% correct. A resourceful crew can get them close to right. The fakers can hire someone like you or have someone like you on staff to authenticate their fake fonts. They could hire crews that work on fake paper currency where the attention to detail tends to be 100x the level required to make a fake slab label and hologram.
You aren't the only person with your skill set. Anyone making high quality fakes tends to have an eye for miniscule details as well. Plus they have the feedback loop of rejects. The buyer often has no idea that they bought a fake, often times no one is checking their buys. Once near perfect, and the fakes are passing, the job is mostly done. There are so many legacy slabs that they don't have to change and update whenever the company changes. >>
Well I didn't say fonts were the only thing I'd look at. Just one example. With enough experience, you can get to know if something "smells" or not, even if it's just a whiff. So, if you're about to embark on something you'd rather not lose right from the start on, and you don't know the grade, or series well, better know your seller.
Do you think the average coin investor is going to make themselves an expert in spotting counterfeit slabs? I doubt it.
If these folks lose confidence in the product they will leave the field.
Legal considerations aside, I think it is long past the time for the TPGs to start making some very public examples of just what they are doing to stop the makers and sellers of counterfeit slabs.
The TPGs also need to standardize their product. The profusion of special labels just adds to the potential confusion of real versus counterfeit.
16Dlink
Nevermind that…. How could a TPG call it anything less than AU 55 ?
From an eBayer who even tries to explain it. It's still each man for himself. (not to exclude woman, per se) The GREAT CAVEAT remains in ALL MARKETS.
A fair warning on eBay
as an addendum and follow up for comparative purposes, only….
, Take a look at this one.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
- with most of the counterfeit certs that match an authentic coin, the majority do not have T.V., so this is not an effective fail-safe. people doing more image comps to share with all is really how we are going to start making some headway, or books, dvds, whatever. sure the idiots making these things will be able to use the info too but i'd rather have them get a bit better and bring the whole of numismatics up a few notches because imo, it is easier to detect high class III and above with some knowledge than trying to detect class II, low III with none.
i think the jist of it all is that people probably want to be able to relax and just trust their dealer and/or their experience but this is unfortunately not a reality because i've seen fakies/altered items in many well-known dealer booths/shops and since everyone in numismatics isn't going to do business with the elite small group of people that may be fortunate enough to never be fooled and thusly allow a customer to buy one unknowingly. i understand everyone is at different levels of knowledge about numismatics and then they have counterfeits on top of it all. it requires a lot of effort.
i do try to not be so hard on others (whether i accomplish this or not idk) because i am biased having looked at so many, some just seem like they would be obvious but i bet there are class IV and V out there, coins etc and holders, that i may not detect but the elite counterfeit detectors would wonder why i would/could miss them but they would have to realize that it is a life-long goal to be a master counterfeit detector. yes, i still think a person is accountable for their own actions but the unfortunately reality is that we are always going to have to be on our toes because of counterfeits, robberies, companies selling defunct products and dozens of other things. hard to protect one's self again all things at all times.
not attacking. just discussing, citing examples, offering opinions. if you catch me being hard on someone for not knowing, feel free to "nudge" me.
>>
Thanks for your very thoughtful response. You have a much greater understanding of the issue than I do, and I can tell everyone on this forum that I am a collector and not any type of expert in detecting fakes. I still struggle with determining AT vs NT. But for collectors who rely to a great deal on TPG's to provide authentication in the investment we make in our collections, I would offer the following suggestions to provide a more reliable verification system:
1. For all coins valued over $1,000 (or some other reasonable value) a Title of Ownership should be maintained by the TPG's and any transaction has to pass Title through the TPG. Obviously, this will raise certification prices, but it may be useful for the TPG's to be the guards at the gate if they are providing the guarantees.
2. Auction houses, dealers and eBay, et al have to issue a Certificate of Authenticity and be bonded for their opinion. Onerous for the sellers, and will reduce liquidity in the market, at least on the high end items. But I sometimes wonder why one would want to buy a very high end and expensive coin on eBay, or even Heritage for that matter without a COA from those that are profiting from the transaction. Indemnification agreements do not seem to be part of Heritage, eBay et al agreements. Or alternatively, see item 4 below.
3. PCGS and NGC certs should include coin ownership history, at least as relates to the coins history with PCGS.
4. All transactions in excess of a set $$ standard have to be recertified by the TPG prior to sale. Some people will not be happy about this because they are more impressed by an OGH, but OGH's are probably a significant part of the problem.
I would think that less than 20% of professionals in the business can detect a sophisticated fake, and almost 0% of collectors. The TPG's are at significant risk as well if they recertify or cross a fake. The TPG's have been hacked and their current model is not working for them or is working for collectors.
OINK