"But so that we may not cause offense, go to the lake and throw out your line. Take the first fish you catch; open its mouth and you will find a four-drachma coin. Take it and give it to them for my tax and yours." Matthew 17:27
<< <i>Doesn't ebay rules not allow a person to post grades unless it's in a legitimate slab? He's probably just using the ngc slab to offer his ms66 opinion to avoid getting his auction kicked out. >>
If it's the same seller that bashes PCGS on every coin he has listed then I know i wnt ever deal with him again. Very rude person >>
...I'm i missing something here or isn't this guy on The Board of Experts at PCGS???
Erik >>
For the record I wasn't referring to Julian in my 1st reply. It's another Ebay Seller who sales onlyHigh dollar PCGS coins and Dogs PCGS on every single coin.
I've met Julian and have dealt with him in the past. Nice guy.
Notwithstanding, do I laugh at some of his eBay posting, yes. Does he have some nice coins at times, absolutely! No different than anyone else...every dealer has some material that is better than other, it's just reality.
TBH, I kind of chuckle at how much time some people spend posting on here about what someone might/might not be selling or saying on eBay?
If you don't like what a person is saying or selling, move on... If you feel someone is selling treasure, great. If you feel it's junk, great. Why spend any time stirring the pot?
I guess God has wired us all differently, but it makes no sense to me ....
The seller doesn't only ask insane pricing for coins he grades higher than the TPG. Fine enough people have validated that if he says it's higher grade then so be it. But he also charges premiums out of the atmosphere on coins with toning that are dark and ugly as if they were rainbow toned.
Like someone said. He's a millionaire. And that's all that matters. No matter how you got there. Right?
What if Julian sold MS65 CAC Saints on eBay and said, "these are crap...at least 2 points overgraded...so therefore I'm going to sell them at $200 above melt." What would the people post on here? Ah, let me think, NOTHING! You would buy them all yourself and then post on here how this guy on eBay is an idiot, you're a genius and you ripped him. You would say he is a dealer, and he should know better....
He is doing exactly this same thing but on the other side, and suddenly he is some kind of an enigma?
Some people are too much on here... let's just move on. Let Julian sell/say whatever Julian wants. It is a free country. If you don't like his coins, vote with your money and don't spend it with him.
I don't have to read more than the first line to know who it is within 95% certainty. By the 3rd line, I think I have 99% certainty as to the seller in question. As I type this, I haven't read more than the first post and still think it is who I think it is.
If so, he has been mentioned here more than a few times....and is a board member who doesn't come around too often nowadays. Given the rep, it is a shame.
Anyone is free to offer their wares at whatever price they choose. Sounds fair to me and I have no problem with that.
But after reading the entire thread I was curious and checked his site. 6,000+ items for sale. That is impressive.
He may be able to spot undergraded coins and market them for their true higher grades but I also see that he sells very common coins such as modern gold and silver commemoratives. He has many of the most common high mintage dates for sale raw or in 69 holders for 50% to 100% higher than retail. Not higher than wholesale, but 50% to 100% higher than retail.
But hey, he is selling around 300 listings a month on eBay and that is very impressive. I salute the main. And his business model.
Every coin stands on it's own merit. Seriously. We have "standards with opinions " vs. "opinions of those standards" And in light of that, some people just won't step up to the plate. C'est la vie. I like Julian.
It's too bad Julian doesn't post much here anymore....
Read from those who have dealt with him over the years (...Broadstruck FE ) and you will understand that he's one of the best in the biz....he's not the only top shelf dealer around who plays ebay to win..
This whole thread surprised me, especially some of the assertions around page 2 and 3. Julian is well respected and a nice guy for the 10 years I am here. Maybe more than one person got their Julian's mixed up in responding here?
The conflict is not whether Julian or JA or PCGS are right or wrong on their opinions, but the non sustainable valuation that we as collectors and dealers place on coins as they jump from grade to grade.
To use up some "free" submissions a decade a go, I sent in 4 Classic silver commems with the Eliasberg pedigree. One of the coins upraded from MS65 to 66 and the price soared from $300 to $1600, which an Ebay bidder readily paid. Same coin would not have moved for $400 a month earlier in the old holder.
I do not blame PCGS for a change of opinion, just wonder why we worship numerical grades as we do.
<< <i>What if Julian sold MS65 CAC Saints on eBay and said, "these are crap...at least 2 points overgraded...so therefore I'm going to sell them at $200 above melt." What would the people post on here? Ah, let me think, NOTHING! You would buy them all yourself and then post on here how this guy on eBay is an idiot, you're a genius and you ripped him. You would say he is a dealer, and he should know better....
He is doing exactly this same thing but on the other side, and suddenly he is some kind of an enigma?
Some people are too much on here... let's just move on. Let Julian sell/say whatever Julian wants. It is a free country. If you don't like his coins, vote with your money and don't spend it with him.
My 10 cents
/mdg. >>
Well we can make up fictitious scenarios all day to justify his high prices. What if Julian was a flying unicorn? But at the end of the day there is only one justification for his prices, and that is that we live in a free market and he can ask anything he wants.
<< <i>A lot of Julian's eBay auctions have a best offer feature.
I suspect what he is asking and what he would accept are probably different. I wild suggest you make an offer if you like a piece amd see where you guys end up m >>
My personal experience tells me he sticks very close to the advertised Ebay price. >>
+100
What we've got here is failure to communicate.....
<< <i>Well we can make up fictitious scenarios all day to justify his high prices. What if Julian was a flying unicorn? But at the end of the day there is only one justification for his prices, and that is that we live in a free market and he can ask anything he wants. >>
I have no opinion on Julian but the above quote is probably one of the funniest things I've read on this forum.
The system that's defaulted with eBay is to trust the third party over the individual. And for good reason. If someone wants to participate in that system but still question the 3rd party it an attempt to drive their coin prices up, fine. But to the point that those kinds of tactics make buyers question the ratings on *my* coins, I'm going to be annoyed.
"I'll believe it's a crisis when the people who keep telling me it's a crisis start acting like it's a crisis." Glenn Reynolds
Hmmm...let's see how many board rules are being broken or are on the critical list in this thread so far...
Rule 3) Anyone attacking another poster or making disparaging personal remarks will no longer be allowed to post. No more warnings.
I'd call that one a slam dunk.
Rule 4) Anyone making libelous remarks concerning any individual, any company, or any other entity will no longer be allowed to post. No more warnings.
This one's debatable. It doesn't really rise to the level of libel per se but Julian certainly wouldn't appreciate the knocks on him and his business.
Rule 5) If you have nothing to contribute to an OP then do not post. Snide remarks and other negative comments will result in your losing your ability to post. No more warnings.
Well, I suppose this one gets broken in every thread to one degree or another, but...technically... yep.
Rule 7) This is a PCGS forum. Posts promoting or bashing other grading companies or service are not allowed.
This one's a wobbler I suppose, but JA/CAC was disparaged a bit.
Did I miss anything?
Oh... and for the record- I've done business with Julian on multiple occasions and had nothing but positive outcomes. He's a true legend in both the hobby and business. If you don't like his price on something then either ask if negotiable or simply don't buy the item.
I would not pay anyone more than the grade on the holder. I don't care who they are, what sticker it has on it, blah blah blah. They are blowing in the wind with me trying to get higher grade money than what is on the holder. If they want more then let them get it regraded at that grade. The question one needs to ask is if some guy is asking 65 money or more for a 64 coin then why has he not sent it in especially if there is anything to his rationale.
I don't offer a coin for more than the grade on the holder either. If I think a 65 coin should get 66 or 67 money then I need to take responsibility and get it graded such.
Say some guy does pay 65 or 66 money for a 64 graded coin - unless he is able to convince a buyer down the line its worth much more than 64 money or get it regraded at the higher grade he believes it is, well he got ripped.
I am not sure about the personal attacks, but I tell you this. When I see a seller selling a coin at 20X full retail, I am going to post and laugh about it EVERY single time this subject comes up. Here it is again:!!
<< <i>I am not sure about the personal attacks, but I tell you this. When I see a seller selling a coin at 20X full retail, I am going to post and laugh about it EVERY single time this subject comes up. Here it is again:!! >>
Sure $34,500 seems high but if it was in a sample slab it would be a bargain .
we live in a free market and he can ask anything he wants.
Actually, no. There is a Code of Ethics that restricts the amount a PNG dealer can pay for or sell a coin for to a 'reasonable' level. Is it reasonable to ask ten or more times list price for a coin that PCGS and NGC have both graded a few grades lower? Certainly in some instances it is. I know that the Bullowa 1795 flowing hair dollar graded MS64 the first time through ... retail approximately $150k at the time. Since the owner paid over $1M, I don't blame them for not stopping until it was graded the current MS66.
I started this thread and posted on page 1 that I was finished with it, but I've thought of one disturbing fact.
After said seller sells his slabbed ms64 coin to a buyer as an ms66 (his grade), what happens after 25 years when the said seller and buyer are no longer around ( retired or deceased) and the buyer's family now tries to sell this slabbed ms64 coin (with a list value of $500) when in fact the buyer paid for an ms66 (a $15,000 price tag)?
What options are available to the family to recoup this investment?
It is this situation specifically where I feel the seller can be looked upon as taking financial advantage of the buyer.
How does one recoup ms66 money from a slabbed ms64 coin?
Tell me, I'm all ears.
"Gold is money, and nothing else" (JP Morgan, 1912)
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
<< <i>What options are available to the family to recoup this investment?
Tell me, I'm all ears. >>
Two thoughts...
1. I don't see where the seller has described the coin as an investment. 2. I think it's unreasonable to expect that you will always be able to get your money back from an investment.
<< <i>What options are available to the family to recoup this investment?
Tell me, I'm all ears. >>
Two thoughts...
1. I don't see where the seller has described the coin as an investment. 2. I think it's unreasonable to expect that you will always be able to get your money back from an investment. >>
So are you saying buyer beware?
If so, then wouldn't you say a seller in this particular example could be viewed as taking advantage of the buyer?
"Gold is money, and nothing else" (JP Morgan, 1912)
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
<< <i>One thing getting in the way of a good bash thread but does anyone here not think that the coin is stunningly original and perhaps undergraded based off your first impression? Or are a bunch of marginal posters content to bash a good man because he doesn't conform to their novice opinions of eBay pricing/listing etiquette. This type of garbage is why I grew tried of ATS. >>
I actually thought I was ATS for a split second
MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I think the basic "problem" here is a clash between the old and new.
- The old-time market doesn't accept that one knowledgable opinion isn't acceptable. Resubmitting isn't required, because that's just an added expense in what should be a simple meeting of the minds.
- The followers of new market say the 3rd party grade is the final word, and anyone selling based on anything else is automatically suspect.
Where it gets painful is that to someone on the outside, who doesn't know the parties in question, there is no easily identifiable difference between a pure scammer who tries to sell pocket change as MS-65, and a dealer selling at his honest and knowledgable opinion of grade. So, threads like this come into being.
But ultimately, selling a slabbed coin, based on a picture, on an electronic auction site IS the new market. Someone, either buyer or seller, is going to have to re-submit these coins to either rectify the difference between "old market" and "new market"....or find out the two don't actually match. That old market is on its way out, assuming it isn't gone already.
<< <i>The followers of new market say the 3rd party grade is the final word, and anyone selling based on anything else is automatically suspect. >>
The guaranties provided by the TPG's seem to offer an aura of protection that the new market embraces.
Were I looking for that coin for a long term hold and if it were within my price range, I would trust Julian in a minute. Coin clearly looks 65 or better from the images.
Problem is, long term holders like Eric Newman are a lost breed and quick or medium term flips are the present market.
While Julian has the cred to get MS66 money for an MS64 graded coin, resale for most of the rest of us would be problematic until the plasticmeisters agree with Julian's assessment.
<< <i>I am not sure about the personal attacks, but I tell you this. When I see a seller selling a coin at 20X full retail, I am going to post and laugh about it EVERY single time this subject comes up. Here it is again:!! >>
Even if Julian in his 'heart' completely believes this coin is an ms65 (which I believe he does) and sells it as such, he must also fully understand the impossible task that lies ahead for the buyer of said coin when he or his family has to resell the coin.
If Julian has not yet sold this coin in two years with his impeccable numismatic reputation, how is the ordinary 'Mr. Joe Blow' coin collector going to fare?
It will be an impossible sale for the buyer and this is why I have said in my beginning post either Julian should sell this 'ms65' as either: 1) RAW or 2) get it reslabbed into an ms65.
Getting it reslabbed into the higher grade is the preferred way and if it doesn't grade 65 (after how many tries, I don't care) then you have to swallow your pride and sell it as a 64.
It's the only fair way and truly 'professional' way to deal with your customer.
Selling 'Julian's' way is fine for Julian, but not so fine for when the buyer has to sell.
"Gold is money, and nothing else" (JP Morgan, 1912)
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
<< <i>I am not sure about the personal attacks, but I tell you this. When I see a seller selling a coin at 20X full retail, I am going to post and laugh about it EVERY single time this subject comes up. Here it is again:!! >>
Even if Julian in his 'heart' completely believes this coin is an ms65 >>
Lets pretend it is, the last 5 auction sales of PCGS "GRADED" 65's sold between $17000-$26000. Now what!? This coin is about impossible to get in a 64 holder. There is no way that coin goes 65, but if it did, where is the 35 grand price tag coming from?
The bottom line is it doesn't matter what he thinks, you think, or I think. The 25K value is only there if PCGS thinks it. Sorry!
<< <i>I am not sure about the personal attacks, but I tell you this. When I see a seller selling a coin at 20X full retail, I am going to post and laugh about it EVERY single time this subject comes up. Here it is again:!! >>
Even if Julian in his 'heart' completely believes this coin is an ms65 >>
Lets pretend it is, the last 5 auction sales of PCGS "GRADED" 65's sold between $17000-$26000. Now what!? This coin is about impossible to get in a 64 holder. There is no way that coin goes 65, but if it did, where is the 35 grand price tag coming from?
The bottom line is it doesn't matter what he thinks, you think, or I think. The 25K value is only there if PCGS thinks it. Sorry! >>
FALSE. I have rarely paid close to PCGS prices for anything including five figure coins. Some coins don't compute. Julian has conviction and owns that coin. It looks like he will continue to own it. What's the problem?
MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
The problem is that some people don't like it when other people don't run their businesses the way they (the "some people", that is) think they should.
The problem is that some people don't like it when other people don't run their businesses the way they (the "some people", that is) think they should. >>
I have no problem with the issues raised in this thread. Yes, Julian is an expert numismatist but when you ask many multiples of current price levels for holdered coins without getting them regraded then you need to take the heat that comes with that pricing strategy.
Whether right or wrong, it is still properly subject to scrutiny
I couldn't care any less how he runs his business. I always have and always will think it is hilarious to ask 20X full retail price for a coin, and just as hilarious that he believes a cleaned Anacs AU details coin is worth more than the same problem free PCGS coin, that is graded higher to boot!
As far as a nice guy, I wouldn't know. Seems to be based on all the nice comments. As far as pricing coins on eBay, I do know! Those prices are WHACKED!
<< <i>Whether right or wrong, it is still properly subject to scrutiny >>
Sure, why not? Of the scrutinizers, how many have examined the coin in question in person? Seems like that might be at least somewhat important. But then, that's just me.
<< <i>Whether right or wrong, it is still properly subject to scrutiny >>
Sure, why not? Of the scrutinizers, how many have examined the coin in question in person? Seems like that might be at least somewhat important. But then, that's just me. >>
<<You never heard of Julian and now this? Your first speculation, "alleged credentials", did not pan out so well. Making a broader swipe suggesting some conflict of interest about the entire PCGS Board of Experts, at one go, here at their own message board...is...a good idea?
>>
Eric,
I did not mean to make a swipe at Mr. Leidman, who I respect as a very well known dealer and certainly has more expertise in numismatics than I. But when you sign on to the PCGS, or TPG, market system, I find it somewhat inappropriate to circumvent that grading system on a market like eBay. So, now we have an acknowledged expert, who is on the PCGS Board of Experts, that suggests that a PCGS coin graded at MS64 should really be MS66? And maybe, if the buyer recognized his prominence, the buyer should pay MS66 money based upon his "prominence". What is at question here is the hubris of a PCGS Expert dealer that is trying to extract MS66 money for a PCGS MS64 coin. I could care less if HRH told me the same thing.....although I am sure that this is not his style. Surely Julius could submit the coin for reconsideration and take the risk away from the buyer, and guarantee the deal, could he not?
I deal only with a very few trusted dealers, and prefer to buy most coins on Heritage or similar NO RESERVE auctions. I am only suggesting that Mr. Leidman should properly market this "MS66" coin by cracking it out and selling it RAW on Heritage. Let the market set the price. Reminds me way too much of stock brokers who told me how much a stock was worth.
<< <i><<You never heard of Julian and now this? Your first speculation, "alleged credentials", did not pan out so well. Making a broader swipe suggesting some conflict of interest about the entire PCGS Board of Experts, at one go, here at their own message board...is...a good idea?
>>
Eric,
I did not mean to make a swipe at Mr. Leidman, who I respect as a very well known dealer and certainly has more expertise in numismatics than I. But when you sign on to the PCGS, or TPG, market system, I find it somewhat inappropriate to circumvent that grading system on a market like eBay. So, now we have an acknowledged expert, who is on the PCGS Board of Experts, that suggests that a PCGS coin graded at MS64 should really be MS66? And maybe, if the buyer recognized his prominence, the buyer should pay MS66 money based upon his "prominence". What is at question here is the hubris of a PCGS Expert dealer that is trying to extract MS66 money for a PCGS MS64 coin. I could care less if HRH told me the same thing.....although I am sure that this is not his style. Surely Julius could submit the coin for reconsideration and take the risk away from the buyer, and guarantee the deal, could he not?
I deal only with a very few trusted dealers, and prefer to buy most coins on Heritage or similar NO RESERVE auctions. I am only suggesting that Mr. Leidman should properly market this "MS66" coin by cracking it out and selling it RAW on Heritage. Let the market set the price. Reminds me way too much of stock brokers who told me how much a stock was worth.
OINK >>
"And maybe, if the buyer recognized his prominence, the buyer should pay MS66 money based upon his "prominence"."
Hello OldIndian,
Buyer (IMO) should only pay for the coin based on its qualities and his own experience etc. Not the slab, not the slab grade, not when it was slabbed, not Julian's opinion or credentials, not a sticker color. That stuff is an aid, but not so much at resale time. If someone prefers a slab or sticker color over the coin and their own knowledge...one can't help that. If buyer...If I do not believe/know it is a strong coin/item based on my experience/knowledge etc, I won't buy - no matter who says what to the contrary. If one buys (into) opinions strongly, well...The stock broker example - unless you listened to him you are fine. I am remotely fascinated by this thread.
Buyer (IMO) should only pay for the coin based on its qualities and his own experience etc. Not the slab, not the slab grade, not when it was slabbed, not Julian's opinion or credentials, not a sticker color
And on eBay a reasonable "offer" might be I will pay you MS63 and I will submit and split the value increase assigned by PCGS. Perhaps the coin is really MS66, but when buying on eBay the coin is not in hand and the photography hides more flaws than coin doctors can do. So, cover your downside and offer to split the upside.
<< <i>Buyer (IMO) should only pay for the coin based on its qualities and his own experience etc. Not the slab, not the slab grade, not when it was slabbed, not Julian's opinion or credentials, not a sticker color
And on eBay a reasonable "offer" might be I will pay you MS63 and I will submit and split the value increase assigned by PCGS. Perhaps the coin is really MS66, but when buying on eBay the coin is not in hand and the photography hides more flaws than coin doctors can do. So, cover your downside and offer to split the upside.
OINK >>
So your solution is to offer 63 money for a coin that you already know is a lock 64 and frankly should be one if not two grades higher? Gee, way to stick your neck out. LOL. Why would any seller in his right mind agree to such a proposition? There is no downside to cover in your scenario. Anyone would pay PCGS 64 money for the piece so why would he sell it to you at 63 money when he obviously doesn't care about resubmitting it?
Julian obviously thinks this coin speaks for itself as an undergrade, and I agree. That said I still think his ask is somewhat high; that's why it hasn't sold obviously...but there is a "best offer" button there last I checked.
Now if I were to offer anything, I'd offer to pay the fees for a resubmit with no strings on my end other than first right of refusal to purchase based upon the new (presumably higher) grade. If it came back 64 again, then I'd offer mid 64-65 money and if I bought it, would put it in my personal toner collection because I think it's a premium coin regardless.
<<So your solution is to offer 63 money for a coin that you already know is a lock 64 and frankly should be one if not two grades higher? Gee, way to stick your neck out. LOL. Why would any seller in his right mind agree to such a proposition? There is no downside to cover in your scenario. Anyone would pay PCGS 64 money for the piece so why would he sell it to you at 63 money when he obviously doesn't care about resubmitting it?
Julian obviously thinks this coin speaks for itself as an undergrade, and I agree. That said I still think his ask is somewhat high; that's why it hasn't sold obviously...but there is a "best offer" button there last I checked.>>
We all have different opinions on how a deal can best be structured. While I respect yours, you would probably always win on the basis of your higher price and higher risk to the coin's value. In reality, I have way more respect of PCGS opinion than I do of a dealer who has a dog in the fight. While the dealer may have a good reputation as to customers that like him, some of us do not engage in a popularity contest to determine from whom we buy coins. Mr. Leidman's credentials are exquisite and his inventory is amongst the best that I have ever seen. But I do not think that he got there by selling coins at fair market value. He is not only an expert numismatist, he is also a very skilled promoter.
If you are blinded by Mr. Leidman's expertise and by his credentials, you may feel very secure in paying Julian 66 prices for a 64 coin. If you are, then you are a perfect client for Mr. Leidman. I only offered a reasonable deal structure to start negotiations for the coin. If the coin were to be resubmitted, it might make more sense to crack it and resubmit as PCGS may give you only a one point uptick. Maybe Julian is correct in saying it should be a 66. But cracked out it could just come back a 63. So, I offer 63 price and split the upgrade with Julian for price at actual grade. I don't want the coin at 63, and I really want the coin at 66. But I won't even pay 65 unless he is sharing the TPG grading risk.
Sooooooo, you just go buy a 64 coin for 66 money and when it comes back 64, do you think Julian will refund you the difference?
Comments
<< <i>With most of those prices, Jesus himself would have to start stickering coins before I spent that kind of dough! >>
Jesus doesn't have the numismatic credentials Julian does. He would have to re-submit his 64s and get them into 66 holders.
Julian > Jesus
Jesus:
Jesus < Julian
(Numismatically speaking)
<< <i>Julian:
Julian > Jesus
Jesus:
Jesus < Julian
(Numismatically speaking) >>
"But so that we may not cause offense, go to the lake and throw out your line. Take the first fish you catch; open its mouth and you will find a four-drachma coin. Take it and give it to them for my tax and yours." Matthew 17:27
Happy Easter Sunday
Erik
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Doesn't ebay rules not allow a person to post grades unless it's in a legitimate slab? He's probably just using the ngc slab to offer his ms66 opinion to avoid getting his auction kicked out. >>
If it's the same seller that bashes PCGS on every coin he has listed then I know i wnt ever deal with him again. Very rude person >>
...I'm i missing something here or isn't this guy on The Board of Experts at PCGS???
Erik >>
For the record I wasn't referring to Julian in my 1st reply. It's another Ebay Seller who sales onlyHigh dollar PCGS coins and Dogs PCGS on every single coin.
Hoard the keys
Notwithstanding, do I laugh at some of his eBay posting, yes. Does he have some nice coins at times, absolutely! No different than anyone else...every dealer has some material that is better than other, it's just reality.
TBH, I kind of chuckle at how much time some people spend posting on here about what someone might/might not be selling or saying on eBay?
If you don't like what a person is saying or selling, move on... If you feel someone is selling treasure, great. If you feel it's junk, great. Why spend any time stirring the pot?
I guess God has wired us all differently, but it makes no sense to me ....
But people can also have opinions.
The seller doesn't only ask insane pricing for coins he grades higher than the TPG. Fine enough people have validated that if he says it's higher grade then so be it. But he also charges premiums out of the atmosphere on coins with toning that are dark and ugly as if they were rainbow toned.
Like someone said. He's a millionaire. And that's all that matters. No matter how you got there. Right?
He is doing exactly this same thing but on the other side, and suddenly he is some kind of an enigma?
Some people are too much on here... let's just move on. Let Julian sell/say whatever Julian wants. It is a free country. If you don't like his coins, vote with your money and don't spend it with him.
My 10 cents
/mdg.
As I type this, I haven't read more than the first post and still think it is who I think it is.
If so, he has been mentioned here more than a few times....and is a board member who doesn't come around too often nowadays. Given the rep, it is a shame.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
But after reading the entire thread I was curious and checked his site. 6,000+ items for sale. That is impressive.
He may be able to spot undergraded coins and market them for their true higher grades but I also see that he sells very common coins such as modern gold and silver commemoratives. He has many of the most common high mintage dates for sale raw or in 69 holders for 50% to 100% higher than retail. Not higher than wholesale, but 50% to 100% higher than retail.
But hey, he is selling around 300 listings a month on eBay and that is very impressive. I salute the main. And his business model.
Buyer and seller are operating from the same price guide.
All of my coins are secure in a bank safe-deposit box.
<< <i>It's the basis for all transactions involing coin dealers: If you own it, it's a 45. If I own it, it's a 53.
Buyer and seller are operating from the same price guide. >>
...aaaaaand that's why the numismatic plastic factories were invented
Erik
<< <i>
<< <i>It's the basis for all transactions involing coin dealers: If you own it, it's a 45. If I own it, it's a 53.
Buyer and seller are operating from the same price guide. >>
...aaaaaand that's why the numismatic plastic factories were invented
Erik >>
aaaaaaaannd thats why collectors are now getting bent over for a 1 point grade difference instead of 10 points
C'est la vie. I like Julian.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Read from those who have dealt with him over the years (...Broadstruck FE ) and you will understand that he's one
of the best in the biz....he's not the only top shelf dealer around who plays ebay to win..
Eric
To use up some "free" submissions a decade a go, I sent in 4 Classic silver commems with the Eliasberg pedigree. One of the coins upraded from MS65 to 66 and the price soared from $300 to $1600, which an Ebay bidder readily paid. Same coin would not have moved for $400 a month earlier in the old holder.
I do not blame PCGS for a change of opinion, just wonder why we worship numerical grades as we do.
<< <i>What if Julian sold MS65 CAC Saints on eBay and said, "these are crap...at least 2 points overgraded...so therefore I'm going to sell them at $200 above melt." What would the people post on here? Ah, let me think, NOTHING! You would buy them all yourself and then post on here how this guy on eBay is an idiot, you're a genius and you ripped him. You would say he is a dealer, and he should know better....
He is doing exactly this same thing but on the other side, and suddenly he is some kind of an enigma?
Some people are too much on here... let's just move on. Let Julian sell/say whatever Julian wants. It is a free country. If you don't like his coins, vote with your money and don't spend it with him.
My 10 cents
/mdg. >>
Well we can make up fictitious scenarios all day to justify his high prices. What if Julian was a flying unicorn? But at the end of the day there is only one justification for his prices, and that is that we live in a free market and he can ask anything he wants.
<< <i>
<< <i>A lot of Julian's eBay auctions have a best offer feature.
I suspect what he is asking and what he would accept are probably different. I wild suggest you make an offer if you like a piece amd see where you guys end up m >>
My personal experience tells me he sticks very close to the advertised Ebay price. >>
+100
Successful BST xactions w/PCcoins, Drunner, Manofcoins, Rampage, docg, Poppee, RobKool, and MichealDixon.
<< <i>Well we can make up fictitious scenarios all day to justify his high prices. What if Julian was a flying unicorn? But at the end of the day there is only one justification for his prices, and that is that we live in a free market and he can ask anything he wants. >>
I have no opinion on Julian but the above quote is probably one of the funniest things I've read on this forum.
Rule 3) Anyone attacking another poster or making disparaging personal remarks will no longer be allowed to post. No more warnings.
I'd call that one a slam dunk.
Rule 4) Anyone making libelous remarks concerning any individual, any company, or any other entity will no longer be allowed to post. No more warnings.
This one's debatable. It doesn't really rise to the level of libel per se but Julian certainly wouldn't appreciate the knocks on him and his business.
Rule 5) If you have nothing to contribute to an OP then do not post. Snide remarks and other negative comments will result in your losing your ability to post. No more warnings.
Well, I suppose this one gets broken in every thread to one degree or another, but...technically... yep.
Rule 7) This is a PCGS forum. Posts promoting or bashing other grading companies or service are not allowed.
This one's a wobbler I suppose, but JA/CAC was disparaged a bit.
Did I miss anything?
Oh... and for the record- I've done business with Julian on multiple occasions and had nothing but positive outcomes. He's a true legend in both the hobby and business.
If you don't like his price on something then either ask if negotiable or simply don't buy the item.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
I don't offer a coin for more than the grade on the holder either. If I think a 65 coin should get 66 or 67 money then I need to take responsibility and get it graded such.
Say some guy does pay 65 or 66 money for a 64 graded coin - unless he is able to convince a buyer down the line its worth much more than 64 money or get it regraded at the higher grade he believes it is, well he got ripped.
<< <i>I am not sure about the personal attacks, but I tell you this. When I see a seller selling a coin at 20X full retail, I am going to post and laugh about it EVERY single time this subject comes up. Here it is again:!!
Sure $34,500 seems high but if it was in a sample slab it would be a bargain .
Actually, no. There is a Code of Ethics that restricts the amount a PNG dealer can pay for or sell a coin for to a 'reasonable' level. Is it reasonable to ask ten or more times list price for a coin that PCGS and NGC have both graded a few grades lower? Certainly in some instances it is. I know that the Bullowa 1795 flowing hair dollar graded MS64 the first time through ... retail approximately $150k at the time. Since the owner paid over $1M, I don't blame them for not stopping until it was graded the current MS66.
How is that calculated, Bruce?
After said seller sells his slabbed ms64 coin to a buyer as an ms66 (his grade), what happens after 25 years when the said seller and buyer are no longer around ( retired or deceased) and the buyer's family now tries to sell this slabbed ms64 coin (with a list value of $500) when in fact the buyer paid for an ms66 (a $15,000 price tag)?
What options are available to the family to recoup this investment?
It is this situation specifically where I feel the seller can be looked upon as taking financial advantage of the buyer.
How does one recoup ms66 money from a slabbed ms64 coin?
Tell me, I'm all ears.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
<< <i>""There is a Code of Ethics that restricts the amount a PNG dealer can pay for or sell a coin for to a 'reasonable' level.""
How is that calculated, Bruce? >>
You'd have to ask the PNG. I rather imagine it's like pornography.... impossible to define but you know it when you see it.
<< <i>What options are available to the family to recoup this investment?
Tell me, I'm all ears. >>
Two thoughts...
1. I don't see where the seller has described the coin as an investment.
2. I think it's unreasonable to expect that you will always be able to get your money back from an investment.
<< <i>
<< <i>What options are available to the family to recoup this investment?
Tell me, I'm all ears. >>
Two thoughts...
1. I don't see where the seller has described the coin as an investment.
2. I think it's unreasonable to expect that you will always be able to get your money back from an investment. >>
So are you saying buyer beware?
If so, then wouldn't you say a seller in this particular example could be viewed as taking advantage of the buyer?
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
<< <i>So are you saying buyer beware? >>
No, I'm saying that I don't see where the seller advertised the coin as an investment.
<< <i>One thing getting in the way of a good bash thread but does anyone here not think that the coin is stunningly original and perhaps undergraded based off your first impression? Or are a bunch of marginal posters content to bash a good man because he doesn't conform to their novice opinions of eBay pricing/listing etiquette. This type of garbage is why I grew tried of ATS. >>
I actually thought I was ATS for a split second
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
- The old-time market doesn't accept that one knowledgable opinion isn't acceptable. Resubmitting isn't required, because that's just an added expense in what should be a simple meeting of the minds.
- The followers of new market say the 3rd party grade is the final word, and anyone selling based on anything else is automatically suspect.
Where it gets painful is that to someone on the outside, who doesn't know the parties in question, there is no easily identifiable difference between a pure scammer who tries to sell pocket change as MS-65, and a dealer selling at his honest and knowledgable opinion of grade. So, threads like this come into being.
But ultimately, selling a slabbed coin, based on a picture, on an electronic auction site IS the new market. Someone, either buyer or seller, is going to have to re-submit these coins to either rectify the difference between "old market" and "new market"....or find out the two don't actually match. That old market is on its way out, assuming it isn't gone already.
<< <i>The followers of new market say the 3rd party grade is the final word, and anyone selling based on anything else is automatically suspect. >>
The guaranties provided by the TPG's seem to offer an aura of protection that the new market embraces.
Were I looking for that coin for a long term hold and if it were within my price range, I would trust Julian in a minute. Coin clearly looks 65 or better from the images.
Problem is, long term holders like Eric Newman are a lost breed and quick or medium term flips are the present market.
While Julian has the cred to get MS66 money for an MS64 graded coin, resale for most of the rest of us would be problematic until the plasticmeisters agree with Julian's assessment.
<< <i>I am not sure about the personal attacks, but I tell you this. When I see a seller selling a coin at 20X full retail, I am going to post and laugh about it EVERY single time this subject comes up. Here it is again:!!
Even if Julian in his 'heart' completely believes this coin is an ms65 (which I believe he does) and sells it as such, he must also fully understand the impossible task that lies ahead for the buyer of said coin when he or his family has to resell the coin.
If Julian has not yet sold this coin in two years with his impeccable numismatic reputation, how is the ordinary 'Mr. Joe Blow' coin collector going to fare?
It will be an impossible sale for the buyer and this is why I have said in my beginning post either Julian should sell this 'ms65' as either: 1) RAW or 2) get it reslabbed into an ms65.
Getting it reslabbed into the higher grade is the preferred way and if it doesn't grade 65 (after how many tries, I don't care) then you have to swallow your pride and sell it as a 64.
It's the only fair way and truly 'professional' way to deal with your customer.
Selling 'Julian's' way is fine for Julian, but not so fine for when the buyer has to sell.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
<< <i>
<< <i>I am not sure about the personal attacks, but I tell you this. When I see a seller selling a coin at 20X full retail, I am going to post and laugh about it EVERY single time this subject comes up. Here it is again:!!
Even if Julian in his 'heart' completely believes this coin is an ms65 >>
Lets pretend it is, the last 5 auction sales of PCGS "GRADED" 65's sold between $17000-$26000. Now what!? This coin is about impossible to get in a 64 holder. There is no way that coin goes 65, but if it did, where is the 35 grand price tag coming from?
The bottom line is it doesn't matter what he thinks, you think, or I think. The 25K value is only there if PCGS thinks it. Sorry!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I am not sure about the personal attacks, but I tell you this. When I see a seller selling a coin at 20X full retail, I am going to post and laugh about it EVERY single time this subject comes up. Here it is again:!!
Even if Julian in his 'heart' completely believes this coin is an ms65 >>
Lets pretend it is, the last 5 auction sales of PCGS "GRADED" 65's sold between $17000-$26000. Now what!? This coin is about impossible to get in a 64 holder. There is no way that coin goes 65, but if it did, where is the 35 grand price tag coming from?
The bottom line is it doesn't matter what he thinks, you think, or I think. The 25K value is only there if PCGS thinks it. Sorry! >>
FALSE. I have rarely paid close to PCGS prices for anything including five figure coins. Some coins don't compute. Julian has conviction and owns that coin. It looks like he will continue to own it. What's the problem?
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i> What's the problem? >>
The problem is that some people don't like it when other people don't run their businesses the way they (the "some people", that is) think they should.
<< <i>
<< <i> What's the problem? >>
The problem is that some people don't like it when other people don't run their businesses the way they (the "some people", that is) think they should.
I have no problem with the issues raised in this thread. Yes, Julian is an expert numismatist but when you ask many multiples of current price levels for holdered coins without getting them regraded then you need to take the heat that comes with that pricing strategy.
Whether right or wrong, it is still properly subject to scrutiny
I couldn't care any less how he runs his business. I always have and always will think it is hilarious to ask 20X full retail price for a coin, and just as hilarious that he believes a cleaned Anacs AU details coin is worth more than the same problem free PCGS coin, that is graded higher to boot!
As far as a nice guy, I wouldn't know. Seems to be based on all the nice comments. As far as pricing coins on eBay, I do know! Those prices are WHACKED!
Cheers!
<< <i>Whether right or wrong, it is still properly subject to scrutiny >>
Sure, why not? Of the scrutinizers, how many have examined the coin in question in person? Seems like that might be at least somewhat important. But then, that's just me.
<< <i>
<< <i>Whether right or wrong, it is still properly subject to scrutiny >>
Sure, why not? Of the scrutinizers, how many have examined the coin in question in person? Seems like that might be at least somewhat important. But then, that's just me. >>
>>
Eric,
I did not mean to make a swipe at Mr. Leidman, who I respect as a very well known dealer and certainly has more expertise in numismatics than I. But when you sign on to the PCGS, or TPG, market system, I find it somewhat inappropriate to circumvent that grading system on a market like eBay. So, now we have an acknowledged expert, who is on the PCGS Board of Experts, that suggests that a PCGS coin graded at MS64 should really be MS66? And maybe, if the buyer recognized his prominence, the buyer should pay MS66 money based upon his "prominence". What is at question here is the hubris of a PCGS Expert dealer that is trying to extract MS66 money for a PCGS MS64 coin. I could care less if HRH told me the same thing.....although I am sure that this is not his style. Surely Julius could submit the coin for reconsideration and take the risk away from the buyer, and guarantee the deal, could he not?
I deal only with a very few trusted dealers, and prefer to buy most coins on Heritage or similar NO RESERVE auctions. I am only suggesting that Mr. Leidman should properly market this "MS66" coin by cracking it out and selling it RAW on Heritage. Let the market set the price. Reminds me way too much of stock brokers who told me how much a stock was worth.
OINK
<< <i><<You never heard of Julian and now this? Your first speculation, "alleged credentials", did not pan out so well. Making a broader swipe suggesting some conflict of interest about the entire PCGS Board of Experts, at one go, here at their own message board...is...a good idea?
>>
Eric,
I did not mean to make a swipe at Mr. Leidman, who I respect as a very well known dealer and certainly has more expertise in numismatics than I. But when you sign on to the PCGS, or TPG, market system, I find it somewhat inappropriate to circumvent that grading system on a market like eBay. So, now we have an acknowledged expert, who is on the PCGS Board of Experts, that suggests that a PCGS coin graded at MS64 should really be MS66? And maybe, if the buyer recognized his prominence, the buyer should pay MS66 money based upon his "prominence". What is at question here is the hubris of a PCGS Expert dealer that is trying to extract MS66 money for a PCGS MS64 coin. I could care less if HRH told me the same thing.....although I am sure that this is not his style. Surely Julius could submit the coin for reconsideration and take the risk away from the buyer, and guarantee the deal, could he not?
I deal only with a very few trusted dealers, and prefer to buy most coins on Heritage or similar NO RESERVE auctions. I am only suggesting that Mr. Leidman should properly market this "MS66" coin by cracking it out and selling it RAW on Heritage. Let the market set the price. Reminds me way too much of stock brokers who told me how much a stock was worth.
OINK >>
"And maybe, if the buyer recognized his prominence, the buyer should pay MS66 money based upon his "prominence"."
Hello OldIndian,
Buyer (IMO) should only pay for the coin based on its qualities and his own experience etc. Not the slab, not the slab grade, not when it was slabbed, not Julian's opinion or credentials, not a sticker color. That stuff is an aid, but not so much at resale time. If someone prefers a slab or sticker color over the coin and their own knowledge...one can't help that. If buyer...If I do not believe/know it is a strong coin/item based on my experience/knowledge etc, I won't buy - no matter who says what to the contrary. If one buys (into) opinions strongly, well...The stock broker example - unless you listened to him you are fine.
I am remotely fascinated by this thread.
Best wishes,
Eric
OINK
<< <i>Buyer (IMO) should only pay for the coin based on its qualities and his own experience etc. Not the slab, not the slab grade, not when it was slabbed, not Julian's opinion or credentials, not a sticker color
OINK >>
So your solution is to offer 63 money for a coin that you already know is a lock 64 and frankly should be one if not two grades higher? Gee, way to stick your neck out. LOL.
Why would any seller in his right mind agree to such a proposition? There is no downside to cover in your scenario. Anyone would pay PCGS 64 money for the piece so why would he sell it to you at 63 money when he obviously doesn't care about resubmitting it?
Julian obviously thinks this coin speaks for itself as an undergrade, and I agree. That said I still think his ask is somewhat high; that's why it hasn't sold obviously...but there is a "best offer" button there last I checked.
Now if I were to offer anything, I'd offer to pay the fees for a resubmit with no strings on my end other than first right of refusal to purchase based upon the new (presumably higher) grade. If it came back 64 again, then I'd offer mid 64-65 money and if I bought it, would put it in my personal toner collection because I think it's a premium coin regardless.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
Why would any seller in his right mind agree to such a proposition? There is no downside to cover in your scenario. Anyone would pay PCGS 64 money for the piece so why would he sell it to you at 63 money when he obviously doesn't care about resubmitting it?
Julian obviously thinks this coin speaks for itself as an undergrade, and I agree. That said I still think his ask is somewhat high; that's why it hasn't sold obviously...but there is a "best offer" button there last I checked.>>
We all have different opinions on how a deal can best be structured. While I respect yours, you would probably always win on the basis of your higher price and higher risk to the coin's value. In reality, I have way more respect of PCGS opinion than I do of a dealer who has a dog in the fight. While the dealer may have a good reputation as to customers that like him, some of us do not engage in a popularity contest to determine from whom we buy coins. Mr. Leidman's credentials are exquisite and his inventory is amongst the best that I have ever seen. But I do not think that he got there by selling coins at fair market value. He is not only an expert numismatist, he is also a very skilled promoter.
If you are blinded by Mr. Leidman's expertise and by his credentials, you may feel very secure in paying Julian 66 prices for a 64 coin. If you are, then you are a perfect client for Mr. Leidman. I only offered a reasonable deal structure to start negotiations for the coin. If the coin were to be resubmitted, it might make more sense to crack it and resubmit as PCGS may give you only a one point uptick. Maybe Julian is correct in saying it should be a 66. But cracked out it could just come back a 63. So, I offer 63 price and split the upgrade with Julian for price at actual grade. I don't want the coin at 63, and I really want the coin at 66. But I won't even pay 65 unless he is sharing the TPG grading risk.
Sooooooo, you just go buy a 64 coin for 66 money and when it comes back 64, do you think Julian will refund you the difference?
OINK