So I guess only the 'crossover' coins are safe from downgrades(?)
Probably right. Anything in a PCGS holder is fair game. It's their coin/slab after all
Although I didn't buy and sell much before the late 1980's, I've been around the hobby/industry since the 1970's, and in my experience very few people used MS numbers until the mid to late eighties, (until then only 60 and 65, like the Greysheet, although some people used 'unc' or bu, 'choice', and 'gem' ) ...and grades were a joke anyway, one dealer's 'choice' being another dealer's 'BU', etc.
Also, when you bought uncirculated coins they were all 'choice' or 'gems', but when you *sold* coins to dealers, you were told yours were 'uncs'. Until PCGS arrived, you had to either work wholesale with a dealer and then sell retail, if you could, or try to buy cheaply from the public and sell them to dealers. Very little attention was given to quality among the BU coins, except to decide if they were better than typical. It was pretty much a two-tiered system
Well I bought and sold a lot of coins from 1974-1986. I attended many auctions in NYC and Boston (Stacks, NERCG, NIOF, etc.). My own MS grading system in 1976 was 60, 60+, 60++, 65, 65+, 65++. I was using the MS grading system to buy nice coins at auctions. And my competition was also doing it. There were huge premiums for superb coins above MS65 (ie what we call 66, 67, 68 today). In many cases those coins brought 3X MS65 money. Surely, there was a MS grading system in play even if only in the heads of the bidders. I bought a gem 1907-s 25c in 1976 at a NERCG auction for around $750. It was graded MS67/70. I just graded it 65 or 65+ as I recall. I really didn't care how the local coin shops were grading. Most just used CDN which had unc, choice unc, and gem unc. 3 grades. The sharper shops would split the grades if the coin was too nice to be just a 60, or choice, or gem. So that's 6 grades no matter how you slice it. So it's incorrect to say all choice uncs were the same and all gem uncs were the same. Even in 1975-1977 there was low end, average, and high end for any descriptive MS grade. It may have been 2 tiered system to 95% of the hobby, but for those people I bid against at auction (Ivy, NERCG, Kutcher, Hendleson, Bellisario, Avenas, Terranova, Akers, Edwards, Renrob (Rose and Iskowitz), NPI (Miller and Tracey), Marty Haber, JA, and dozens more, it was anything but that. From 1974-1986 and spent lots of time in auction viewings separating out the better uncs from the others. I learned in the mid to late -1970's that I could buy an "unc" coin from my local shop (that was really choice) and flip it to NERCG (Halperin's group) for a 20-50% profit. All PCGS did in 1986 was solidify the system that leading dealers (and ANACS) had been creating and using from 1975-1985. And I would say by 1983-1984 it was essentially fully formed. Many higher profile dealers of that era made their living splitting hairs on choice and gem coins. And obviously there was an end retail sale after all the dealers got their cut. Even the 1983 Eliasberg gold coin sale showed the huge premiums superb coins brought over MS65 money. I had my eyes set on the amazing 1894-s $5 LIb. I think I graded it 65++ or 67ish. It went for 50% over my high bid at near $20,000. I under-estimated the grade again. NGC graded that MS69 in the late 1980's.
My first and biggest lesson on "quality" at auction was in March 1975 at the James Stack collection of quarters. My primary target was a gem 1867-s quarter than Red Booked for $300 in unc. It was a $75 coin in XF. I knew it was a special coin and probably the finest there could ever be. I put in a bid of $900 (3X book) figuring that was more than enough to win it. It sold for over $1800 to the Kleinmans. David Akers of Paramount was probably one of the higher under-bidders. I wasn't even in the game. That same coin sold for $30,000 five years later at auction. When it was first slabbed in August 1986 it went PCGS MS66. A really high grade for that early in the cycle. That 1975 loss clearly showed me that I totally misunderstood the premiums on superb coins and that there were many tiers not shown on a greysheet. From 1972-1975 Jim Halperin, Steve Ivy, and maybe others brought MS grading to the investment side of coins. And they cut the MS lines finer than most. Clearly they saw that there was more than unc, choice unc, and gem unc. and profited handsomely from it.
Late to the party here but as to the OP coin... no doubt a killer piece, but protestations by others to the contrary aside, absent the toning and pedigree it's a 6 imo. I give CCs leeway for bagmarks but not that much leeway, especially considering what looks to be a softer than normal strike. Perhaps if viewed in hand my opinion would change but I just can't see an 8 here. Awesome coin nonetheless.
By looking at these on my iphone I don't think either compare to the coin in opening post. The cheek on the first one looks hairlined pretty bad. The second one looks like it has cabinet friction o the high points - I do like the color though. Let see more contenders.
Comments
Probably right. Anything in a PCGS holder is fair game. It's their coin/slab after all
Although I didn't buy and sell much before the late 1980's, I've been around the hobby/industry since the 1970's, and in my experience very few people used MS numbers until the mid to late eighties, (until then only 60 and 65, like the Greysheet, although some people used 'unc' or bu, 'choice', and 'gem' ) ...and grades were a joke anyway, one dealer's 'choice' being another dealer's 'BU', etc.
Also, when you bought uncirculated coins they were all 'choice' or 'gems', but when you *sold* coins to dealers, you were told yours were 'uncs'.
Until PCGS arrived, you had to either work wholesale with a dealer and then sell retail, if you could, or try to buy cheaply from the public and sell them to dealers.
Very little attention was given to quality among the BU coins, except to decide if they were better than typical.
It was pretty much a two-tiered system
Well I bought and sold a lot of coins from 1974-1986. I attended many auctions in NYC and Boston (Stacks, NERCG, NIOF, etc.). My own MS grading system in 1976 was 60, 60+, 60++, 65, 65+, 65++. I was using the MS
grading system to buy nice coins at auctions. And my competition was also doing it. There were huge premiums for superb coins above MS65 (ie what we call 66, 67, 68 today). In many cases those coins brought 3X MS65
money. Surely, there was a MS grading system in play even if only in the heads of the bidders. I bought a gem 1907-s 25c in 1976 at a NERCG auction for around $750. It was graded MS67/70. I just graded it 65 or 65+ as I
recall. I really didn't care how the local coin shops were grading. Most just used CDN which had unc, choice unc, and gem unc. 3 grades. The sharper shops would split the grades if the coin was too nice to be just a 60, or
choice, or gem. So that's 6 grades no matter how you slice it. So it's incorrect to say all choice uncs were the same and all gem uncs were the same. Even in 1975-1977 there was low end, average, and high end for any
descriptive MS grade. It may have been 2 tiered system to 95% of the hobby, but for those people I bid against at auction (Ivy, NERCG, Kutcher, Hendleson, Bellisario, Avenas, Terranova, Akers, Edwards, Renrob (Rose and
Iskowitz), NPI (Miller and Tracey), Marty Haber, JA, and dozens more, it was anything but that. From 1974-1986 and spent lots of time in auction viewings separating out the better uncs from the others. I learned in the
mid to late -1970's that I could buy an "unc" coin from my local shop (that was really choice) and flip it to NERCG (Halperin's group) for a 20-50% profit. All PCGS did in 1986 was solidify the system that leading dealers (and
ANACS) had been creating and using from 1975-1985. And I would say by 1983-1984 it was essentially fully formed. Many higher profile dealers of that era made their living splitting hairs on choice and gem coins. And
obviously there was an end retail sale after all the dealers got their cut. Even the 1983 Eliasberg gold coin sale showed the huge premiums superb coins brought over MS65 money. I had my eyes set on the amazing 1894-s $5
LIb. I think I graded it 65++ or 67ish. It went for 50% over my high bid at near $20,000. I under-estimated the grade again. NGC graded that MS69 in the late 1980's.
My first and biggest lesson on "quality" at auction was in March 1975 at the James Stack collection of quarters. My primary target was a gem 1867-s quarter than Red Booked for $300 in unc. It was a $75 coin in XF. I knew it
was a special coin and probably the finest there could ever be. I put in a bid of $900 (3X book) figuring that was more than enough to win it. It sold for over $1800 to the Kleinmans. David Akers of Paramount was probably
one of the higher under-bidders. I wasn't even in the game. That same coin sold for $30,000 five years later at auction. When it was first slabbed in August 1986 it went PCGS MS66. A really high grade for that early in the
cycle. That 1975 loss clearly showed me that I totally misunderstood the premiums on superb coins and that there were many tiers not shown on a greysheet. From 1972-1975 Jim Halperin, Steve Ivy, and maybe others
brought MS grading to the investment side of coins. And they cut the MS lines finer than most. Clearly they saw that there was more than unc, choice unc, and gem unc. and profited handsomely from it.
Rainbow Stars
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i>Looks pretty nice to me. Here is a little smaller view. Fields are like glass!
I love the coin except for the bandaged cheek. Maybe not a moose, but close to a caribou.
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