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$1 CC 68+ - yowza - warning - 2200px wide image
LanceNewmanOCC
Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭
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i think this falls into the moose category?
i think this falls into the moose category?
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"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.american-legacy-coins.com
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
maybe 66+
67* at NGC.
68 is wrong IMO.
<< <i>68+ is wrong IMO. >>
That's not an opinion, it is without debate.
This is clearly a very overgraded coin - 66+ at best --> Too much field chatter (even when considering that this photo is well blown up!)
Would an ASE (or similar modern coin) get graded 68+ with these many hits.....NO!
<< <i>Jack Lee pedigree probably added a grade. >>
And a lot of Jack Lee provenanced coins initially brought strong money from those who idolized the name. However, ultimately a lot of the coins from both Lee I and Lee II have softened substantially in the market since the initial round of sales.
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.american-legacy-coins.com
<< <i>It's a beautiful thing, but I don't see it ever crossing into one of our hosts holders at same. Especially with the field chatter below the M of UNUM. YMMV. >>
cert verify
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-Paul
<< <i>You guys are funny, two minor marks on a coin dripping with luster and nice original patina, and you're knocking it to a 66 or 67? This coin is clearly a moose, and I would wager good money it would grade at least 68 every time.
-Paul >>
Serial Number: 28286088
Grading Service: PCGS
Description: 1885-CC Dollars Morgan MS68
Status: CAC
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.american-legacy-coins.com
same color as the fields. Not a coin I would pay up for. I know this sounds a little harsh, but it's my honest opinion.
<< <i>You guys are funny, two minor marks on a coin dripping with luster and nice original patina, and you're knocking it to a 66 or 67? This coin is clearly a moose, and I would wager good money it would grade at least 68 every time.
-Paul >>
Paul, with all due respect, I quickly counted at least 15 marks on the obverse and reverse combined.
Several marks on the neck, streak below the M in UNUM, dentil hit under the wing at 9 o'clock, and several marks between the Star and U in UNITED.
These are just the most visible marks.
<< <i>The OP's images gave the coin the appearance of being in a NGC holder, with white insert.
i wasn't trying to be trixie. i've changed the image in the op.
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I'll also take the slight weakness over the ear in favor of this coin's overall eye appeal and luster. I guess if you dipped it out it just might end up being a 67+.
At least no one told the owner to dip this one so they could get an MS69.
It's a silver dollar that come out of a bag of a thousand. One can't expect a MS68 Morgan to look as clean as a MS68 Ike Dollar.
I'm ready to buy MS66's and MS67's out there that look similar to this coin.
Looks pretty nice to me. Here is a little smaller view. Fields are like glass!
I have seen this coin in person. On technical merits the assigned grade of MS68 is merited. The issue with this coin is the toning as not everybody may agree that it is attractive toning. CAC seems to like it for what it is and their opinion carries more weight than those of the online know-it-alls.
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
<< <i>The members of this forum are talented. They can accurately grade coins from photos alone...This sounds like a great idea for a new grading service where people won't need to send coins over. They can simply send over pictures and a grade will be assigned.
I have seen this coin in person. On technical merits the assigned grade of MS68 is merited. The issue with this coin is the toning as not everybody may agree that it is attractive toning. CAC seems to like it for what it is and their opinion carries more weight than those of the online know-it-alls. >>
What about strike? It's obviously a rather soft strike.........not something I've ever seen on a 68 Morgan that's not an O-mint Morgan....
<< <i>Wei, with all due respect to you, there is A LOT of TPG-worthy talent on these boards...and using photo's for grading is a reasonable alternative with professional photos such as this >>
Grading off of an image the size of a Buick hubcap probably isn't the best measure……………….just sayin
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>
<< <i>You guys are funny, two minor marks on a coin dripping with luster and nice original patina, and you're knocking it to a 66 or 67? This coin is clearly a moose, and I would wager good money it would grade at least 68 every time.
-Paul >>
Paul, with all due respect, I quickly counted at least 15 marks on the obverse and reverse combined.
Several marks on the neck, streak below the M in UNUM, dentil hit under the wing at 9 o'clock, and several marks between the Star and U in UNITED.
These are just the most visible marks. >>
Compare it to any 6+ in PCGS plastic, and I think you will want to renege on your comment that it is only a 6+.
Even without seeing it in hand it is easy to see that the coin in the OP is of a totally different caliber.
But no doubt they aren't for everyone. Just those few building the finest sets known. This 85-cc is cleaner than my PCGS MS67 1887 CAC and that coin is very strong for the grade.
The lack of marks on Liberty's face and the strength of luster covering that area is probably the #1 factor in determining what is a 67 and what's a 68. I suspect the funky mottled toning
on this coin gives an appearance of the strike being weaker than it really is. The smaller photo posted above is still 4X the actual size of the real coin. The marks will look even smaller still.
I might not see the 68+ grade....but I can understand a 68. The Vermeulle coin is cleaner and better struck than this 85-cc. The luster and eye appeal on the 85-cc is probably better. There
are dozens of 85-cc in MS67. The only way I know to identify the best coin((s) of that group is to grade it 67+ or 68 (there's only 1 of each). Sort of tells me that this is the best one graded
and hence the highest assigned grade. That really is the bottom line. And you know PCGS would have spent extra time on this coin before letting it out the door as the first MS68. A future owner
always has the option of grade review if they don't think it's every bit a 68. If someone has a better 85-cc in a 66 or 67 holder...show 'em.
You'd think after seeing 20,000 or so 85-cc's over the years that PCGS would be quite capable of determining what single coin was heads and tails better than all the rest. JA didn't disagree either.
Pop report
<< <i>Wei, with all due respect to you, there is A LOT of TPG-worthy talent on these boards...and using photo's for grading is a reasonable alternative with professional photos such as this >>
Actually not really. There is some but I can count the number of them on one hand and still have digits left over. Unlike the vast majority of forum members here, PCGS and CAC had the opportunity to examine the coin in person then assigned their opinions accordingly. I do not doubt the credibility of PCGS and CAC especially considering the fact they both had the opportunity to grade that coin.
If you think people can grade as (or more) accurately from pictures than in person you are out of your mind.
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
<< <i>If you think people can grade as (or more) accurately from pictures than in person you are out of your mind. >>
So I guess we all supposed to line up and drool at this beautiful coin, rather than comment on whether (based on the images) we think it is fairly numbered or not.
I have handled more 1885-CC's than most on the board, though I defer on grading ability to many members here.
Only way I see a 68 on this coin is if one considers that CC Morgans are generally graded less tightly than say San Fran dollars. Also as I stated earlier, Jack Lee, also adds a point.
Considering that this coin pops by $40k from MS67 to 68, compromised grading should not be taken lightly.
<< <i>
<< <i>If you think people can grade as (or more) accurately from pictures than in person you are out of your mind. >>
So I guess we all supposed to line up and drool at this beautiful coin, rather than comment on whether (based on the images) we think it is fairly numbered or not.
I have handled more 1885-CC's than most on the board, though I defer on grading ability to many members here.
Only way I see a 68 on this coin is if one considers that CC Morgans are generally graded less tightly than say San Fran dollars. Also as I stated earlier, Jack Lee, also adds a point.
Considering that this coin pops by $40k from MS67 to 68, compromised grading should not be taken lightly. >>
Nobody is asking you to drool over this coin and a high grade doesn't mean anybody has to like it by default. What people here are doing is claiming that the grade they assigned based solely on photos is more accurate than the decisions of both PCGS and CAC. Not only is that wishful thinking and pretentious, that is a dangerous habit to follow while navigating through this industry.
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
The 13th coin in this listing is a somewhat similar looking CAC 67 with vibrant mottled toning that was sold in 2013. Has the same apparent slight softness in strike as well. You be the judge.
Coin #13
For 1/4 to 1/8th the price of a 68 I'd probably take the above 67. It doesn't have a "perfect" cheek because of a multitude of tiny ticks and chatter. Fields are clean though.
<< <i>What people here are doing is claiming that the grade they assigned based solely on photos is more accurate than the decisions of both PCGS and CAC. >>
Both PCGS and CAC are fallable. Few of us have the opportunity to see the coin in hand, and many here are sharp eyed, even on digital images.
Nothing is going to unflatten the hair or diminish the marks.
Nobody is asking you to drool over this coin and a high grade doesn't mean anybody has to like it by default. What people here are doing is claiming that the grade they assigned based solely on photos is more accurate than the decisions of both PCGS and CAC. Not only is that wishful thinking and pretentious, that is a dangerous habit to follow while navigating through this industry. >>
So are you saying that PCGS NEVER overgrades a coin, or they didn't overgrade this one because JA put a sticker on it?
<< <i>Nobody is asking you to drool over this coin and a high grade doesn't mean anybody has to like it by default. What people here are doing is claiming that the grade they assigned based solely on photos is more accurate than the decisions of both PCGS and CAC. Not only is that wishful thinking and pretentious, that is a dangerous habit to follow while navigating through this industry. >>
So are you saying that PCGS NEVER overgrades a coin, or they didn't overgrade this one because JA put a sticker on it? >>
Without having the coin within arm's reach I'm more inclined to believe that it's closer to being a legitimate MS68 than it is to being a true MS66 like many people here claim it is based on photos alone.
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
<< <i>It may be an 8+ but the toning is a 3 outa 10, JMO. Does nothing for me, especially the cheek area. >>
For those grading it 66, I'd love to buy all of your handpicked MS-66 dollars!
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<< <i>it looks pretty fantastic to me. >>
Me too, but not 68+ $100,000 fantastic.
<< <i>Maybe it's time for another PCGS World Series of Grading so all the online grading maestros can test their eyes on real coins in real time.
Been there, done that...
I will shut up if you say yes!
<< <i>Bruce, if the coin says 1881-S on it instead of 1885-CC, does it still grade 68+?
I will shut up if you say yes!
I have no idea, I haven't seen it in hand. Since I haven't, I will give PCGS, Laura and CAC [who all have] the benefit of the doubt. I can say from the heart that Laura will not put just any coin into a top tier Registry Set ....I have first hand experience with her making me pass on a holder.
<< <i>
<< <i>Bruce, if the coin says 1881-S on it instead of 1885-CC, does it still grade 68+?
I will shut up if you say yes!
I have no idea, I haven't seen it in hand. Since I haven't, I will give PCGS, Laura and CAC [who all have] the benefit of the doubt. I can say from the heart that Laura will not put just any coin into a top tier Registry Set ....I have first hand experience with her making me pass on a holder. >>
Fair enough. Thank you for responding.
Collector since 1976. On the CU forums here since 2001.
i wonder if the color and luster can compensate for the contact in-hand?
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<< <i>.
i wonder if the color and luster can compensate for the contact in-hand?
. >>
Not much room for compensation on a 68+. Coin needs to be all there.
Would love to see it in hand.
The luster must be stunning though!
Definitely a terrific coin and CAC approved for the 68 grade (so really- what do we know?).