eBay seller offered me a return policy, then proceeded to renege on said policy
FadeToBlack
Posts: 7,847 ✭✭✭✭✭
I hate people who think they can conduct business in this way. I'd say I have very good odds of seeing eBay side with me, and I don't understand why they would risk the negative or issues with eBay over a few bucks.
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<< <i>I hate people who think they can conduct business in this way. I'd say I have very good odds of seeing eBay side with me, and I don't understand why they would risk the negative or issues with eBay over a few bucks. >>
Don't count on Ebay. I went through this with a major dealer in the Chicago area. Ebay didn't care. The seller ignored all my attempts to contact them until the return priv had expired. Then they miraculously started responding.
That one cost me $500. If you have something in writing and have not exceeded the return policy limit already you might have a leg to stand on. I've had several issues with Ebay sellers over the years and not once did Ebay
stand behind me....not even when it was outright fraud from a lifted auction where the seller didn't even own the coin and never shipped anything to me. For good reason I don't mess with Ebay anymore.
That said, it seems that Ebay/PP virtually always decide in the buyer's favor with SNAD claims. Did you file such a claim for the $500 item?
<< <i>not even when it was outright fraud from a lifted auction where the seller didn't even own the coin and never shipped anything to me. For good reason I don't mess with Ebay anymore. >>
I have a hard time believing this statement. I use eBay all the time and sell there all the time. This is not possible since there has to be proof that it was delivered. Come on!!
It's always over a "few" bucks. IDK why people get so bent out of shape over the small stuff.
I don't doubt RR experience, I can only state mine.
I haven't sold on Ebay for over 10 yrs. OTOH, I'm a frequent Buyer. Due to the items I purchase I have ran into MANY scammers. I have always had Ebay bend over backwards for me in taking my side. I do have to say though, I always make clear what has transpired. Usually the scammers are too dumb to cause any real issues with me. Your own mileage may vary according to your specific history and item catefory, idk
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<< <i>not even when it was outright fraud from a lifted auction where the seller didn't even own the coin and never shipped anything to me. For good reason I don't mess with Ebay anymore. >>
I have a hard time believing this statement. I use eBay all the time and sell there all the time. This is not possible since there has to be proof that it was delivered. Come on!! >>
I agree. I've had problems with plenty of ebay sellers, not shipping the product, shipping the wrong product, or shipment gets lost in the mail. I've had all of these problems on ebay and ebay has always sided with me and refunded my money or helped me resolve the issue with the seller. I would say that ebay is very buyer friendly, I know that people complain about ebay all the time in this forum, but the only reason I buy on ebay is because I know that they have my back and will make it right when one of the many less than reputable sellers tries to screw people. Sellers need to realize that the only reason so many people use ebay is because ebay forces sellers to uphold their end of the bargin and to have good customer service practices. They have to if they want to compete with Amazon.
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<< <i>not even when it was outright fraud from a lifted auction where the seller didn't even own the coin and never shipped anything to me. For good reason I don't mess with Ebay anymore. >>
I have a hard time believing this statement. I use eBay all the time and sell there all the time. This is not possible since there has to be proof that it was delivered. Come on!! >>
I don't make up stories for my health.
You can believe it happened. The coin was a MS64 PCGS 1903-s $20 Lib. The coin had been auctioned months earlier by another dealer. The scam guy came in and convinced a 3rd party Ebay seller with a good account to
market the coin for them. They'd provide the auction and all they would have to do was collect the money, keep 10% commish, and send them the rest. The Ebay account holder never even saw the coin or had
any intentions of shipping it. Ebay looked at this and told me they couldn't do a thing. They didn't even close the account of the seller or file a complaint. There was no proof of shipping because the coin never existed
for the seller. They had no record of shipping it because the other party was supposed to do that. When I contacted the Ebay, USPS, FED's Crimecen, local police in each jurisdiction, etc. they all told me they would do nothing.
And that's what they all did. Nothing. There was a valid address, phone number for the seller....a real person in Union City, Georgia outside Atlanta. I had a nice aerial shot of their large house in a new development. My bank
csent me bank the cancelled check with the Ebay seller's hand written signature on it. The money cleared their bank and then they shipped it out Western Union to the crooks. All I got was the run around. It was outright fraud
nothing was shipped because the "sellers" didn't own the coin. I even talked with the seller at their home address on two occasions. They claimed they were innocent of anything and knew nothing. Yeah, this occurred before
PayPal became mandatory. It doesn't change the fact that it was fraud and that Ebay did nothing. It was and is possible. And don't believe for a minute that PayPal is fool proof and Ebay has your back. Ebay is buyer friendly?
They would never communicate with me on the phone.... only by some Ebay messages. What really bothered me was that the FED internet crime guy for the Atlanta area wouldn't do anything. And the other ones nearby said
it wasn't their jurisdiction so they weren't able to help either. The FED official from Dallas was particularly helpful...but couldn't actually pursue the seller. He said it was probably a crime cartel like the Russians. I don't think these
criminal goups stopped what they were doing because of PayPal.
<< <i>I paid $350 for the coin, the "few bucks" I'm referring to is the cost of shipping they'd be out. Which I offered to pay out of my refund. The seller hardly ever sells coins, they claimed this coin came from their father who passed away about 10 years ago. The coin was kept in some kind of flip that caused some kind of surface contamination. I broke it out of the old, cracked and decayed flip, and threw it in acetone for a night since there was some contaminants on the surface of the coin, then pulled it out the next evening to reveal some issues that I didn't like with the coin. At any rate, this was the message she sent me referring to my treatment of the coin, as if putting it in acetone was a bad thing;
"I am not happy about this. That coin has sat in my box for over 14 years, never touched by my hands. It has been that long since my father passed. He bought that coin in Denver and lived in AZ for over 5 years before he passed so that is close to 20 years that that coin was not touched by human hands. Now, you tell me you put the coin in acetone. When you asked me to take a photo of the back of the coin, that is when the plastic broke, I have never messed with that coin."
Inexperienced sellers can be both a boon and a bane. This one is more the latter. >>
I really don't know what to tell you, but in this instance, I have to agree with the seller. Once you buy a coin (whether from eBay or a B&M) and you break it out of the holder and then proceed to dip it in acetone or E-Zest, then you own the coin in my opinion. If you did not like the look of the coin when you got it, you should have returned it. Plain and simple. And, in this case, I hope eBay does side with the seller. You have no grounds for complaining.
It's never a smart thing to curate a seller's coins without telling them what you're thinking. And how do they know what you're going to do or that you're even going to use acetone and not something else?
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<< <i>not even when it was outright fraud from a lifted auction where the seller didn't even own the coin and never shipped anything to me. For good reason I don't mess with Ebay anymore. >>
I have a hard time believing this statement. I use eBay all the time and sell there all the time. This is not possible since there has to be proof that it was delivered. Come on!! >>
Be aware that proof "it" was delivered is actually proof "something" was delivered. A seller can throw anything in a box and have it tracked for delivery. The "proof" received is just that the package was delivered, not that it contained anything in particular. It's hard to believe eBay would allow a "sale" to stand if nothing was delivered, but stranger things have been reported with eBay.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
I really don't know what to tell you, but in this instance, I have to agree with the seller. Once you buy a coin (whether from eBay or a B&M) and you break it out of the holder and then proceed to dip it in acetone or E-Zest, then you own the coin in my opinion. If you did not like the look of the coin when you got it, you should have returned it. Plain and simple. And, in this case, I hope eBay does side with the seller. You have no grounds for complaining."
If you crack a coin you just bought out of its slab, you own it (regardless of the return policy).
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
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<< <i>not even when it was outright fraud from a lifted auction where the seller didn't even own the coin and never shipped anything to me. For good reason I don't mess with Ebay anymore. >>
I have a hard time believing this statement. I use eBay all the time and sell there all the time. This is not possible since there has to be proof that it was delivered. Come on!! >>
Be aware that proof "it" was delivered is actually proof "something" was delivered. A seller can throw anything in a box and have it tracked for delivery. The "proof" received is just that the package was delivered, not that it contained anything in particular. It's hard to believe eBay would allow a "sale" to stand if nothing was delivered, but stranger things have been reported with eBay. >>
Yes. Nothing was sent. The seller even told me and Ebay they didn't send anything because they were "only a 3rd party" handling the money....if you can believe that. I told Ebay to ask them for proof of shipping. None was
supplied. Still, Ebay did nothing. They didn't have the decency to say anything to me other than a non-descript Ebay message saying the "case was closed" and they found nothing actionable. Your are correct that strange
things have happened. And this one was one of them. A crime was committed. USPS fraud as my check went through the US mail. Probably wire fraud as well as my money was wired to the actual crooks via the ebay seller.
These people weren't even smart enough, or didn't care to bother sending an empty box. If that was the case Ebay would have showed me "proof" of something being sent to me. Still, there would have been the "little issue" of
showing I signed for a package. Never happened though. Sending a package (empty or not) might have complicated things or increased the level of fraud. They kept it simple as only a check/wire scam. That was probably smart
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
<< <i>I paid $350 for the coin, the "few bucks" I'm referring to is the cost of shipping they'd be out. Which I offered to pay out of my refund. The seller hardly ever sells coins, they claimed this coin came from their father who passed away over 10 years ago. The coin was kept in some kind of flip that caused some kind of surface contamination. I broke it out of the old, cracked and decayed flip, and threw it in acetone for a night since there was some contaminants on the surface of the coin, then pulled it out the next evening to reveal some issues that I didn't like with the coin. At any rate, this was the message she sent me referring to my treatment of the coin, as if putting it in acetone was a bad thing;
"I am not happy about this. That coin has sat in my box for over 14 years, never touched by my hands. It has been that long since my father passed. He bought that coin in Denver and lived in AZ for over 5 years before he passed so that is close to 20 years that that coin was not touched by human hands. Now, you tell me you put the coin in acetone. When you asked me to take a photo of the back of the coin, that is when the plastic broke, I have never messed with that coin."
Inexperienced sellers can be both a boon and a bane. This one is more the latter. >>
If you had a conservation agreement I am surprised you did not mention it here.
Even still you should have known better.
Link to the auction, and your before and after pics?
Jim
<< <i>Inexperienced sellers can be both a boon and a bane. >>
You knew the seller was inexperienced. What did you expect? To get a "You Suck" after you got the coin and posted about it here?
Hoard the keys.
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<< <i>not even when it was outright fraud from a lifted auction where the seller didn't even own the coin and never shipped anything to me. For good reason I don't mess with Ebay anymore. >>
I have a hard time believing this statement. I use eBay all the time and sell there all the time. This is not possible since there has to be proof that it was delivered. Come on!! >>
I don't make up stories for my health.
You can believe it happened. The coin was a MS64 PCGS 1903-s $20 Lib. The coin had been auctioned months earlier by another dealer. The scam guy came in and convinced a 3rd party Ebay seller with a good account to
market the coin for them. They'd provide the auction and all they would have to do was collect the money, keep 10% commish, and send them the rest. The Ebay account holder never even saw the coin or had
any intentions of shipping it. Ebay looked at this and told me they couldn't do a thing. They didn't even close the account of the seller or file a complaint. There was no proof of shipping because the coin never existed
for the seller. They had no record of shipping it because the other party was supposed to do that. When I contacted the Ebay, USPS, FED's Crimecen, local police in each jurisdiction, etc. they all told me they would do nothing.
And that's what they all did. Nothing. There was a valid address, phone number for the seller....a real person in Union City, Georgia outside Atlanta. I had a nice aerial shot of their large house in a new development. My bank
csent me bank the cancelled check with the Ebay seller's hand written signature on it. The money cleared their bank and then they shipped it out Western Union to the crooks. All I got was the run around. It was outright fraud
nothing was shipped because the "sellers" didn't own the coin. I even talked with the seller at their home address on two occasions. They claimed they were innocent of anything and knew nothing. Yeah, this occurred before
PayPal became mandatory. It doesn't change the fact that it was fraud and that Ebay did nothing. It was and is possible. And don't believe for a minute that PayPal is fool proof and Ebay has your back. Ebay is buyer friendly?
They would never communicate with me on the phone.... only by some Ebay messages. What really bothered me was that the FED internet crime guy for the Atlanta area wouldn't do anything. And the other ones nearby said
it wasn't their jurisdiction so they weren't able to help either. The FED official from Dallas was particularly helpful...but couldn't actually pursue the seller. He said it was probably a crime cartel like the Russians. I don't think these
criminal goups stopped what they were doing because of PayPal. >>
What was the timeframe that this happened? I'm no expert but from what I can tell this would not happen today.
...I hope it works out for you none the less,
Erik
On the other hand, risk goes both ways on these transactions and this one was a loser. Had the acetone bath yielded a big hit, the OP would have been thrilled. In this instance it was a fail.
No big deal, just move on and learn.
<< <i>I'm even more surprised that you thought a house full of dealers would side with you on this one
Do you think a house full of collectors would have sided with him on this one?
<< <i>Pay with PayPal? You can always return with magic Silver Bullet called "item not as described." >>
Based on what the OP has written, I'm not seeing a "not as described" issue here. As such, claiming it to be so would be lying, would it not?
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<< <i>I'm even more surprised that you thought a house full of dealers would side with you on this one
Do you think a house full of collectors would have sided with him on this one?
...no...that's why I (as a collector only) said I was surprised that he didn't already know this was the way of the eBay world
Erik
I agree to an extent. I do believe that Ebay has gone overboard. Not allowing sellers to leave buyers feedback, always - or almost always siding with buyers who file SNAD claims when they just want to return an item which had a no return policy, etc. has really allowed lousey buyers to just walk all over sellers. I've experienced this first hand. We've seen many threads on such situations as well. There needs to be a balance. Ebay has tipped too far to the buyers. There are too many lousey buyers and, w/no buyer feedback, buyer FB is meaningless.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
<< <i>not even when it was outright fraud from a lifted auction where the seller didn't even own the coin and never shipped anything to me. For good reason I don't mess with Ebay anymore.
Yes. Nothing was sent. The seller even told me and Ebay they didn't send anything because they were "only a 3rd party" handling the money....if you can believe that. I told Ebay to ask them for proof of shipping. None was
supplied. Still, Ebay did nothing. They didn't have the decency to say anything to me other than a non-descript Ebay message saying the "case was closed" and they found nothing actionable. Your are correct that strange
things have happened. And this one was one of them. A crime was committed. USPS fraud as my check went through the US mail. Probably wire fraud as well as my money was wired to the actual crooks via the ebay seller.
These people weren't even smart enough, or didn't care to bother sending an empty box. If that was the case Ebay would have showed me "proof" of something being sent to me. Still, there would have been the "little issue" of
showing I signed for a package. Never happened though. Sending a package (empty or not) might have complicated things or increased the level of fraud. They kept it simple as only a check/wire scam. That was probably smart >>
This is confusing. Am I reading it right, you said " USPS fraud as my check went through the US mail."?
If you pay by sending a check instead of paypal, I don't know if there is protection without using paypal.
<< <i>Sorry, but once the coin is opened and then given an acetone bath, I would NEVER take the coin back and I have to say, I consider myself a fair and honest person. >>
I agree, but FDB, I can see how this became a misunderstanding.
Rob
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