Options
General rules for purchase returns at BM shops/Shows
BLUEJAYWAY
Posts: 11,630 ✭✭✭✭✭
They are?
Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
0
Comments
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Returns for a purchase you made in person? Why? >>
Ever hear of buyer's remorse?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
When you buy a coin from a dealer at a show in person, there should not be any returns period. Unless you had arrangements discussed for what ever reason. ( excpet of course if counterfeit or something of that nature)
I have two friends who if they buy something at a show, and later find out they no longer need it or want it , find a better one or had somebody look at it who pointed out an issue, if still at the show they would take it back to the dealer and expect a refund. This is just plain bad business and wrong. it would be okay to ask, but don't expect it.
jim
<< <i>Returns for a purchase you made in person? Why? >>
Exactly. There should not be any reason to do so.
Exactly. It has always been my understanding that whenever you buy a coin 'sight seen', whether at a show or at a B&M, the transaction is final. You see the coin, you have it in hand, and make a decision whether to purchase or not. Buyers remorse is not a valid reason for a return. Returns are generally offered only when the purchase is 'sight unseen', as with an online purchase.
<< <i>
<< <i>Returns for a purchase you made in person? Why? >>
Exactly. There should not be any reason to do so. >>
Unless the coin or holder are proven to be counterfeit there are generally no returns for coins purchased in person.
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
<< <i>Returns for a purchase you made in person? Why? >>
Because at most coin shows the lighting is sub-par for the retail buyer. A good example of this is the Wespnex Westchester, NY November show held in the auditorium. The high ceiling flourescent lighting interferes with the grading in nearly all parts of the main room. You have to seek out those individual lower spot lights scattered across the room to get a better view. The same comment for shows held in middle school gymasiusms or even ballrooms. In short, that lighting is deceptive and makes everything look better than it is. I've gotten coins home that looked totally different (ie 1/2 to 1 grade lower) once I got them in a darkened room with a quality lamp. And there are many newbies out there who just make plain dumb decisions on what they buy and don't realize they've been screwed until they show the coin around to a few dealers on that same bourse floor...been there, done that decades ago.
There are literally dozens of reasons to have a valid reason to return a coin purchased in person. And most of them are probably related to the fact that the buyer paid too much or got screwed. They just didn't realize it until they had someone else look at their prized "newp." I recall my first run in with a bourse "return" back in 1977 at the MANA show in Maryland. I had driven 300 miles to attend that show. I wanted to come back with something neat in a choice or gem better date seated quarter. Most of what I liked was priced too high. So I decided on a "ch" BU 1854-0 seated quarter. It's not like you saw many unc "O" mints back then. I purchased the coin even though it wasn't exactly as nice as I wanted. Must have shown that around at the show (with neg reviews) because I came back to the dealer and wanted to return the coin. They would not do that but offered full value in trade towards anything else in their inventory. Thing was, if they had anything else I liked in their inventory (that was fairly priced) I would have already bought it instead of that 54-0.. So when I got that coin home I liked it even less. It was covered in fine hairline swirls, would probably grade at best MS61 today. I sold that within a few months for a 20% loss. Never bought another coin off that dealer though I often saw them at major east coast shows over the next 15 years. Of course, they were fully in the right and did what they could. From my view, I preferred not to do future business with someone who charged "a little too much" for so-so coins that really weren't "choice" BU. One lesson learned from that was to take such a coin for "other opinions" I trusted without first buying it. No one sees a coin exactly as you do. And for the majority of collectors out there....that isn't a good thing. These days, I'd get a 2nd opinion on the coin before shelling out $$ on something I wasn't certain on. I've had a number of dealers take coins from me and show them to someone else before they made a buying decision. Collectors shouldn't be bashful about doing the same if they have doubts. Either that, or have someone you trust wander by that table and take a "confidential" look for you.
And I explicitly stated that it would be a one time only courtesy. It worked for both of us.
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.american-legacy-coins.com
<< <i>Any return policy or buy back policy should be discussed before the transaction is completed. >>
What Perry said.
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
<< <i>"When you buy a coin from a dealer at a show in person, there should not be any returns period."
Exactly. It has always been my understanding that whenever you buy a coin 'sight seen', whether at a show or at a B&M, the transaction is final. You see the coin, you have it in hand, and make a decision whether to purchase or not. Buyers remorse is not a valid reason for a return. Returns are generally offered only when the purchase is 'sight unseen', as with an online purchase. >>
Imagine trying to play the "buyers remorse" card with a recently purchased car?
I don't think the dealer would go for it.
However, I did know of one young lady who purchased a car and her father marched her back the very next day and convinced the car dealership to take the car back and return her her down payment.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>Because at most coin shows the lighting is sub-par for the retail buyer. >>
From what I've seen, the lighting isn't any different for dealers and they buy at shows, too.
<< <i>
<< <i>Because at most coin shows the lighting is sub-par for the retail buyer. >>
From what I've seen, the lighting isn't any different for dealers and they buy at shows, too. >>
Not exactly. The sharper dealers who rely on getting upgrades, crackouts, etc. often bring their own high powered grading lamps with them. A lot of top dealers will take a coin you may be offering and then swing around to
check it out under their halogen lamp. That's not an option they often give to you. And it's not like you can drag your halogen around with you and plug it in wherever. Some dealers will take it a step further and have a simplel
"dark room" set up at their booth. That's the way the graders will see the coin and the best way for a dealer to buy them. Not all coins have the same risk or require that kind of attention. It's true that the lighting at the show
is somewhat similar for most buyers and sellers. Some dealers offer so little for coins that it doesn't matter if they don't even look at the coin under a lamp. Other dealers offer weak wattage at the table (60w or less) in most of
their lights. But there will usually be one at a stronger wattage for grading their newps. The way the most table lamps are set up the collector can only look at the coin at 12-18" from the lamp. The guy behind the table can swing
that lamp around and look at it under more depth or in a slightly darker environment down in their lap. You be surprised how those florescent ceiling lights can screw up your grading. I've been seriously tricked before and learned
some valuable lessons back in the raw coin days. And let's face it, at shows dealers are buying at wholesale, some with plenty of room to protect themselves regardless of what they might miss. The collector is often paying a
hefty premium and really can't afford to miss a single hairline or scuff or end up being well in the hole as soon as they walk out the door. The collector is getting bombarded with varying lighting conditions as they move around.
The guy buying at the table has the some conditions during the show and it's often the same conditions they've seen during previous shows. Much easier. But, be careful at those shows like FUN, Baltimore, Long Beach,
etc. where the lights are way up there. Whatever localized lighting you are using it has to burn through those overhead lights....not easy. At least in the auction lot viewing rooms it's often pretty dark and is far superior to the
bourse floor. And you can bring your own lamp as well. But, it wasn't always like that. Until you've lost some serious money due to lightning I guess there's no problem. Not a big deal though for a MS64/65 common date
Morgan or an XF/AU 1909-vdb cent. Is a big deal on a toned MS65 bust, seated, Barber half though. One of the top PNG graders I know would often buy from my table at shows but take anything of higher value back to his
table for a closer look where he could use his own high quality lamp. Grading consistently and accurately sort of requires that you duplicate the same conditions all the time. What most of us do at coin shows is rather haphazard
when you come down to it. In the 1980's and 1990's when I used to get a lot of coins via the mail, I'd have perfect conditions at home to inspect them (dark room, multiple choice of light sources). You just don't get that on
the bourse floor.
<< <i>Returns for a purchase you made in person? Why? >>
That's affirmative.
When I see dealers who don't have their own lamps, I just walk on by, because they're not even making the slightest effort at accommodating customers.
I've found that dealers without lamps also offer predominately raw coins, too - never a good combination!
Check out the Southern Gold Society
I'm in the "you bought it, you own it" category. The only exception is if some sort of obvious deception took place....which isn't common.
Heck, I've accidentally bought the wrong waist size in jeans, and they sat in my closet for years...waiting for me to lose the weight that I never did.
The wife, on the other hand, will buy 5 things, try them on, and return the ones she decides she doesn't like.
A related observation to the original question:
I've had dealers ask me, "If you ever sell this, promise to bring it to me first". I smile, nod, and walk away fully knowing that I'll sell it any way I please, thank you very much! "I bought it, I own it".
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>In many states when you purchase a car you can void the contract from 3 to 5 days. Many states have buyer protection but most people do not know it. If you buy a shirt off the rack at K Mart and want to return it the next day you can do so. At Best Buy any purchase I make I have 45 days to return it. If a customer is unhappy with a purchase from you, why would you want to stick that customer with that item. An unhappy customer will tell 78%+ more people about their experience than a happy one, I would rather have happy customers than angry customers talking about me in a bad way. Just good business IMO, treat others as you want to be treated and things will usually go well for you. >>
I disagree with the 78% stat you quote. If I'm happy with a good deal from a coin dealer I tell no one about it. If I am unhappy I will tell everyone . The jump from no one to everyone represents a +infinty % which is a smidgeon over 78%
<< <i>Any return policy or buy back policy should be discussed before the transaction is completed. >>
It can't be any simpler or more correct than this.
Lance.
<< <i>I realize that the lighting at shows isn't perfect, but I'd NEVER buy a coin from a dealer who didn't at least have 60W lamps at his table.
When I see dealers who don't have their own lamps, I just walk on by, because they're not even making the slightest effort at accommodating customers.
I've found that dealers without lamps also offer predominately raw coins, too - never a good combination! >>
Agree to a point. If I see something I like and it's worth a closer look, I'll ask to walk it across the aisle to a table with a light (and usually someone I know). I understand the laziness of some dealers (and craftiness on others
who purposely don't have lights) but if I drove an hour to a show, I'm going to look under every rock to find something worth buying. Sometimes those dealers making little effort have underpriced coins. For what little they do
with coins they must might not need lights. That's a possible opportunity for those that do use lights.
discussing a return policy up front
Makes perfect sense. But, it's also telling the seller than the first thing you're thinking about is returning their coin when someone else may have bought it without all the conditions. Many dealers after hearing conditions will just
close up shop and say they forgot that this coin was already spoken for by another collector...sorry for the mistake. To be honest, of a buyer came up to me stating all the requirements for a return, I'd start thinking about raising
the price or just tell them I have a headache and have to go. I compare this to going to a job interview and the first questions out of one's mouth is what are the benefits, salary, vacation days, and promotion ladder....before you
even know what the details of the job are. For most items (cars, coins, collectibles, etc.)....one you drive if off the lot....it's yours. Though the sticky, ungreased wheel can sometimes get it undone.
I think a sight-seen purchase is "done deal" when the money and coin change hands. If the buyer wants to get someone else's opinion, by all means bring it up BEFORE you complete the deal. I have heard some dealers say the main reason they don't allow return privileges once the coin leaves the table (unless arrangements have been made for the buyer to get someone else's opinion) is that you have people who want to buy a coin from Dealer A, then try to sell it to someone else for a profit - if it doesn't work out then they want their money back from Dealer A. You can't blame people for not enabling that.
If a potential buyer wants to have someone else who is at the same show look at the coin before you close the deal, I think most dealers at a show would be OK with that. But before the deal is done, not after.
If a dealer offers full credit towards another coin, that's more than many would offer.
roadrunner makes a good point that if at a show a buyer wants to discuss rules for returning a coin, it would make the seller think that the customer expects to return it, and that would cause concern. I know I wouldn't be surprised if the dealer would put the kibosh on the deal.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.