Would It Be Possible to Pull Off a Ford-Like Scam Today?

Coinosaurus · February 17, 2014 5:26AM

Franklin/Ford fake gold first showed up in the early 1950s. We can argue about who made the stuff and who knew what & when, that is a side issue.

The point is, the material wasn't formally challenged until the mid-1960s.

Would it be possible to pull off a similar fakeroo in today's market - introduce a whole class of stuff and have an apparently legitimate market going?

Or is it something that we wouldn't find out about until way after the fact?

Zoins · February 17, 2014 5:38AM

I've been curious about where the stuff is now.

Does anyone know who has a Clark Gruber Type 2 double eagle?

Sonorandesertrat · February 17, 2014 5:42AM

Two issues here:
1. The world today is very different in terms of the flow of communication. Tougher for scammers today.
2. Fool me once.... Experienced and knowledgeable collectors are likely to be doubters.

A possible third reason:
3. The analytical tools are better today. Isotopic analyses are easier to perform today than in the 1950's. Gold isotope distributions have been used to brand some gold collectibles as fakes.

I think that the short answer is no.

JCMhouston · February 17, 2014 6:25AM

Well you probably couldn't get through the same scam, but sure, there are scams going on every day in the coin market.

People just never learn, evidence the folks over on the Precious Metals forum who were all supportive of a particular dealer, who many of us remember as a well known convicted scammer from back in the day. But they were all saying he's a changed man, just look at how good his prices are, now he's sitting on a bunch of peoples money and apparently not delivering product.

Most people still don't understand that if a story is too good to be true ... it probably isn't.

crypto79 · February 17, 2014 8:32AM

One could argue that fakes will always be made and people will always try to profit off of them be they manufacturing or middle men. Really the only variable is market acceptance holistically from the collector and dealer side.

Pulling away the nefarious context of absolute forgery, there is a large sub-market of grey items in our hobby that are counterfeit in the absolute definition of the word (posing to be something they are not) these include:
Confederate cents
Clandestine mint products
Restrikes
Tributes
Overstikes
Counterfeits (contemporary and period)

All of the above have found market acceptance to various degrees with various degrees of their origin being misrepresented or exaggerated. While it is rare that pure forgeries are embraced as genuine out of ignorance, it isn't close to unique and will most certainly happen again. I would argue modern variance would be that the exact same thing happens when they embrace the gray (Dcarr). Even today those fake gold coins find willing buyers, just the sales pitch has changed which is no real difference at all to these eyes.

I say use the art market as a gauge, it is much more mature than ours and the forgers are always one step ahead of the pack.

Zoins · February 17, 2014 9:22AM

In terms of sheer bravado and brazenness, the Washington Nugget was almost pulled off in broad daylight with exhibits, videos, front cover magazine articles, etc.

I've also been thinking about the George Dixon double eagle given that the first written story is from 1904 and other issues.

So, I'd say people are certainly still trying.

ebaybuyer · February 18, 2014 12:33AM

I can think of at least one scam being perpetrated on the coin collecting public as we read this.

PerryHall · February 18, 2014 12:58AM

<< I can think of at least one scam being perpetrated on the coin collecting public as we read this. >>

Care to share some details?

nags · February 18, 2014 1:16AM

Sure it's possible, especially if respected folks are knowingly or unknowingly involved.

Frankly, that sort of scam probably doesn't have nearly the negative impact on the hobby as the smaller dollar screw-jobs that target inexperienced and new collectors.

WillieBoyd2 · February 18, 2014 1:18AM

"Care to share some details?"

I believe he means the Chinese counterfeits.

Zoins · February 18, 2014 1:24AM

<< Sure it's possible, especially if respected folks are knowingly or unknowingly involved.

Frankly, that sort of scam probably doesn't have nearly the negative impact on the hobby as the smaller dollar screw-jobs that target inexperienced and new collectors. >>

I get the impression that many people are okay with new collectors losing money as indicated by the use of the word "tuition" instead of "screw-job." A bit unfortunate IMO.

ColonelJessup · February 18, 2014 1:52AM

<< 

<< Sure it's possible, especially if respected folks are knowingly or unknowingly involved.

Frankly, that sort of scam probably doesn't have nearly the negative impact on the hobby as the smaller dollar screw-jobs that target inexperienced and new collectors. >>

I get the impression that many people are okay with new collectors losing money as indicated by the use of the word "tuition" instead of "screw-job." A bit unfortunate IMO. >>

No amount of due diligence on the part of some will serve to save from harm those who, by their own ignorance, laziness or whatever, choose, by default, to be screwed. Telemarketers made a living out of this "phenomenon". So do used car salesmen.

This is part of "Life".

Even the most well-researched actions can bring in "sub-optimal" results. Life is full of such lessons, which are scarcely limited to the realm of coins.

"Tuition, it's a b--ch"

Zoins · February 18, 2014 1:57AM

<< 

<< 

<< Sure it's possible, especially if respected folks are knowingly or unknowingly involved.

Frankly, that sort of scam probably doesn't have nearly the negative impact on the hobby as the smaller dollar screw-jobs that target inexperienced and new collectors. >>

I get the impression that many people are okay with new collectors losing money as indicated by the use of the word "tuition" instead of "screw-job." A bit unfortunate IMO. >>

No amount of due diligence on the part of some will serve to save from harm those who, by their own ignorance, laziness or whatever, choose, by default, to be screwed. Telemarketers made a living out of this "phenomenon". So do used car salesmen.

This is part of "Life".

Even the most well-researched actions can bring in "sub-optimal" results. Life is full of such lessons, which are scarcely limited to the realm of coins.

"Tuition, it's a b--ch" >>

Having coin dealers compared to telemarketers and used car salesmen as mentioned may help warn unsuspecting buyers and let them realize they are in danger. This isn't like buying many retail things in America given the consumer protection laws we have. This could be more like buying things in China

Would It Be Possible to Pull Off a Ford-Like Scam Today?

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