Free crossovers at Long Beach?

Billet7 · January 24, 2014 1:46AM

I was surprised to receive this email ad from PCGS. Is this a sign that crossover attempts have dropped since the introduction of the 1% premium, or just a marketing venture? Any insights people? I will look into it further.

FYI, I have sent only a single coin in for crossover since the change, it was a higher dollar ANACS. Everything else I have just kept in NGC holders, or cracked and submitted raw. I used to send coins frequently for crossover, it's just become less advantagous recently. I don't blame PCGS for doing it, but perhaps it's been detrimental in the long run.

LindeDad · January 24, 2014 1:59AM

Have the odds improved last I checked it was only a 30% chance of crossing at grade? So with higher cost less players is what I see as the driving factor.

UtahCoin · January 24, 2014 2:05AM

I got the same email. I really would like the definition of "Free" at the Long Beach show....

WaterSport · January 24, 2014 2:21AM

Well, I got it also and will take advantage of it - if they are willing to do a Variety designated crossover which is on the other holder. I figure that by avoiding mail fees, and grading fees that my $1000 base value coin should only cost me $24 + $10 and no doubt they will stick a $8 fee in there. BUT its still cheaper than a crack out and mail in for me.

WS

Billet7 · January 24, 2014 2:31AM

I too was wondering about the "Free" thing. Does this mean that we don't pay the 1% premium, the standard grading fee, or both?

1tommy · January 24, 2014 2:36AM

<< I too was wondering about the "Free" thing. Does this mean that we don't pay the 1% premium, the standard grading fee, or both? >>

If the Coin does Cross.....Coin is removed from current holder and crossed over to PCGS holder; you are charged the standard grading fee + 1% Guarantee Premium............If the Coin does NOT CROSS Coin is returned to you in its original holder; you are charged the standard grading fee...............So either way you get charged.............Enjoy

Edited to provide the link.CrossOver Info..............

Billet7 · January 24, 2014 2:38AM

I understand how crossovers normally work. What exactly is happening at Long Beach?

DennisH · January 24, 2014 2:47AM

My big question is, do they have to be submitted at the show in order to qualify for the special deal?

1tommy · January 24, 2014 2:48AM

Submit Your Coins On-Site Without Risk

Exclusively at the Long Beach Expo (Jan 30 – Feb 1)

Call 1-800-447-8848 or email for more info. I sent them a email asking them what is Free..................

Bochiman · January 24, 2014 2:48AM

<< 

<< I too was wondering about the "Free" thing. Does this mean that we don't pay the 1% premium, the standard grading fee, or both? >>

If the Coin does Cross.....Coin is removed from current holder and crossed over to PCGS holder; you are charged the standard grading fee + 1% Guarantee Premium............If the Coin does NOT CROSS Coin is returned to you in its original holder; you are charged the standard grading fee...............So either way you get charged.............Enjoy

Edited to provide the link.CrossOver Info.............. >>

Ummm...yeah....nothing on you as you posted the info and the link as PCGS states it, but, given that, I see nothing "FREE" about it.
Looks like everything is still charged...unless they are paying the shipping back or not charging the $8 handling fee. Still nothing FREE about the crossover portion though.

Maybe someone didn't finish their marketing set up before it got sent out?

dbldie55 · January 24, 2014 2:54AM

<< 

<< I too was wondering about the "Free" thing. Does this mean that we don't pay the 1% premium, the standard grading fee, or both? >>

If the Coin does Cross.....Coin is removed from current holder and crossed over to PCGS holder; you are charged the standard grading fee + 1% Guarantee Premium............If the Coin does NOT CROSS Coin is returned to you in its original holder; you are charged the standard grading fee...............So either way you get charged.............Enjoy

Edited to provide the link.CrossOver Info.............. >>

This is missing the point of the thread. Most know how cross overs work, we are wondering about the email received today with a special "free" offer for crossovers. What part is "free"?

blu62vette · January 24, 2014 2:57AM

I read it as risk free... as in no risk which has always been the case since crossovers are not cracked out.

valente151 · January 24, 2014 2:57AM

They used the term "risk free." I think the risk they are referencing isn't the financial one that you are thinking of, but the risk of cracking a coin out to send in raw. I don't believe it is a promotion for the LB show that they aren't charging the fee, but that they are advertising that the service in general is available at the show and you don't have to risk cracking the coins out yourself.

CuKevin · January 24, 2014 3:07AM

The email clearly says "Free PCGS Crossover Special". If nothing else, it says there is a Long Beach Special, so if it isn't free, what is the special?

Nickcap · January 24, 2014 3:16AM

Billet7 · January 24, 2014 3:19AM

YEP, right at the top of the page it says FREE PCGS CROSSOVER SPECIAL. It also says risk free later in the ad. HERE

Billet7 · January 24, 2014 3:21AM

I take it that the top banner is a free special. The remainder of the ad is explaining how the crossover system works.

BustHalfBrian · January 24, 2014 4:20AM

The joy of marketing

messydesk · January 24, 2014 4:36AM

So did anyone call or e-mail for details, as it says to do in the ad?

coinsarefun · January 24, 2014 4:49AM

<< So did anyone call or e-mail for details, as it says to do in the ad? >>

I emailed for details, will post when I hear back.

Flash · January 24, 2014 5:46AM

Lets see if I have this right. If you send a coin to cross at any grade, the 1% guarantee fee is based on the value of the coin. I'm assuming that would be the value of the coin after it crosses to whatever grade they assign the coin. Therefore, a higher grade they give the coin, the more fees they collect. That just doesn't seem right.. basically, they're charging by the grade point; the higher the grade the more money they get. To me this raises an ethics question and gives the appearance of impropriety on the part of PCGS.

lkeigwin · January 24, 2014 6:27AM

<< Lets see if I have this right. If you send a coin to cross at any grade, the 1% guarantee fee is based on the value of the coin. I'm assuming that would be the value of the coin after it crosses to whatever grade they assign the coin. Therefore, a higher grade they give the coin, the more fees they collect. That just doesn't seem right.. basically, they're charging by the grade point; the higher the grade the more money they get. To me this raises an ethics question and gives the appearance of impropriety on the part of PCGS. >>

Nothing new here...this has been in effect for a year. And while I see your point, which others noted last year, I seriously doubt PCGS would intentionally overgrade to collect a higher guarantee premium. Brand name and reputation are far more important. And a later downgrade (from a spot review, regrade, etc.) would more than erase any gain from earlier overgrading.
Lance.

AMRC · January 24, 2014 6:46AM

I was thinking that someone really goofed on this Ad. I do not get the "Free" part either and it is not like our host to rely on a whole lot of fine print to explain these things.

Billet7 · January 24, 2014 6:48AM

Flash, As Lance says, it's been talked about a bunch before, and you have a good point...so does Lance. I think one of the big reasons for the 1% premium is to offset their payout costs, since they are likely to have guarantee claims with crossovers, they don't get as good a look at the coin as they would if it were raw. I'm not necessarily saying that it's a good idea, but that's probably the mentality.

I fear that the 1% premium is hurting them more than they had planned on. I'm sure they expected a drop in the submission rate of crossovers when the program was introduced, but I have a gut feeling that they expected the rate to recover and that recovery has languished. This is all conjecture of course. I would be willing to bet that the low dollar coins ($500 and less) aren't getting sent in nearly as much as they used to. Sure they may be seen as small potatoes, but that's a huge segment of the market that just decided to leave their coins in NGC, ANACS or ICG holders.

dbcoin · January 24, 2014 7:04AM

<< Flash, As Lance says, it's been talked about a bunch before, and you have a good point...so does Lance. I think one of the big reasons for the 1% premium is to offset their payout costs, since they are likely to have guarantee claims with crossovers, they don't get as good a look at the coin as they would if it were raw. I'm not necessarily saying that it's a good idea, but that's probably the mentality.

I fear that the 1% premium is hurting them more than they had planned on. I'm sure they expected a drop in the submission rate of crossovers when the program was introduced, but I have a gut feeling that they expected the rate to recover and that recovery has languished. This is all conjecture of course. I would be willing to bet that the low dollar coins ($500 and less) aren't getting sent in nearly as much as they used to. Sure they may be seen as small potatoes, but that's a huge segment of the market that just decided to leave their coins in NGC, ANACS or ICG holders. >>

I see no fall off in crossover numbers in the past year based on numbers on their stats page. Crossovers are 0.1% of total volume. Insignificant.

KeyLargoRareCoins · January 24, 2014 7:20AM

Nothing free about that offer, you just wont get your coin cracked out is all. Still all normal fees apply vs previously where they would crack your coin now they just wont crack your coin however your still getting charged. Nothing free about that offer and imo very very deceptive marketing.

CuKevin · January 24, 2014 7:27AM

<< Nothing free about that offer, you just wont get your coin cracked out is all. Still all normal fees apply vs previously where they would crack your coin now they just wont crack your coin however your still getting charged. Nothing free about that offer and imo very very deceptive marketing. >>

Not getting the coin cracked is nothing new. Been happening for a year now as Lance said.

lkeigwin · January 24, 2014 7:27AM

<< Nothing free about that offer, you just wont get your coin cracked out is all. Still all normal fees apply vs previously where they would crack your coin now they just wont crack your coin however your still getting charged. Nothing free about that offer and imo very very deceptive marketing. >>

There is no change to PCGS's practice with regard tot cracking the holder. It is only cracked when the cross is approved.
Lance.

KeyLargoRareCoins · January 24, 2014 7:34AM

My apologies, I still thought they were cracking coins. Thats even a worse offer then I previously thought, whats free?

dbldie55 · January 24, 2014 7:51AM

<< My apologies, I still thought they were cracking coins. Thats even a worse offer then I previously thought, whats free? >>

That has never been the case on a cross over. If they crack it, they have to grade it or buy it. Imagine the uproar if you sent a coin in for cross holder and it came back raw.

There is now a regrade service for PCGS graded coins where they will not crack it if it would not upgrade. This is new (past year or so)

lkeigwin · January 24, 2014 7:53AM

As far as I can tell there is nothing free, unless it is risk. Certainly nothing appears new.

I'm hoping PCGS will tell us what crossover special is happening at the Long Beach show.
Lance.

KeyLargoRareCoins · January 24, 2014 8:01AM

<< 

<< My apologies, I still thought they were cracking coins. Thats even a worse offer then I previously thought, whats free? >>

That has never been the case on a cross over. If they crack it, they have to grade it or buy it. Imagine the uproar if you sent a coin in for cross holder and it came back raw.

There is now a regrade service for PCGS graded coins where they will not crack it if it would not upgrade. This is new (past year or so) >>

Thats what I was refering to sorry got the two mixed up for a sec.

Treashunt · January 24, 2014 8:11AM

Inquiring minds want to know............

Stay tuned

Billet7 · January 24, 2014 8:22AM

<< 

<< Flash, As Lance says, it's been talked about a bunch before, and you have a good point...so does Lance. I think one of the big reasons for the 1% premium is to offset their payout costs, since they are likely to have guarantee claims with crossovers, they don't get as good a look at the coin as they would if it were raw. I'm not necessarily saying that it's a good idea, but that's probably the mentality.

I fear that the 1% premium is hurting them more than they had planned on. I'm sure they expected a drop in the submission rate of crossovers when the program was introduced, but I have a gut feeling that they expected the rate to recover and that recovery has languished. This is all conjecture of course. I would be willing to bet that the low dollar coins ($500 and less) aren't getting sent in nearly as much as they used to. Sure they may be seen as small potatoes, but that's a huge segment of the market that just decided to leave their coins in NGC, ANACS or ICG holders. >>

I see no fall off in crossover numbers in the past year based on numbers on their stats page. Crossovers are 0.1% of total volume. Insignificant. >>

Do you have stats for last year? Otherwise I can't imagine how you know if there was a drop or not. All I know from looking at their stats page is that this month is down from the average.

dbcoin · January 24, 2014 9:41AM

Do you have stats for last year? Otherwise I can't imagine how you know if there was a drop or not. All I know from looking at their stats page is that this month is down from the average.

Crossovers last year were less than 0.1% of total coins. It is insignificant. It doesn't matter if it went from 0.11% to 0.09%.

Billet7 · January 24, 2014 9:59AM

<< Do you have stats for last year? Otherwise I can't imagine how you know if there was a drop or not. All I know from looking at their stats page is that this month is down from the average.

Crossovers last year were less than 0.1% of total coins. It is insignificant. It doesn't matter if it went from 0.11% to 0.09%. >>

Perhaps it is insignificant, and I believe it's 1%, not a tenth of a percent, anyway, is this numbers of coins or value of coins? Do you know how much value that 1% represents? I imagine that many coins that are attempted for crossover are quite valuable.

Even if it is a very small amount of the business PCGS does, do you really think they want to drive it away?

Billet7 · January 24, 2014 10:02AM

BTW it seems as though the % of successful crossovers is much higher now, I remember it used to be around 30%, now it says it's 40%.

dbcoin · January 24, 2014 10:09AM

coins graded in last year: 2,167,192
crossovers in last year 26,740

You are correct. It is 1%. So if coin revenue is $40M/yr we are talking $400K/yr in crossover fees. After gross margin and taxes, it comes to about $156,000 in profit/yr or about 2c GAAP EPS which is about 2% of profits. Not insignificant if all of it went away.

So I looked on the internet wayback machine and found the Feb 2013 statistics page. It looks like crossovers are UP since that time. There were 22,511 for the year last year. Crossovers are up 20% as are general submissions

Billet7 · January 24, 2014 10:30AM

How'd you find that? Huh...I stand corrected. It looks like crossovers are keeping in pace with general growth. I'm surprised.

Billet7 · January 24, 2014 10:34AM

I also noticed that the average coin that gets graded is worth just north of $1000. Kind of interesting, not sure why.

dbcoin · January 24, 2014 10:44AM

<< I also noticed that the average coin that gets graded is worth just north of $1000. Kind of interesting, not sure why. >>

Every gold 1 oz coin is over that amount. PCGS tends to do the higher value coins, NGC is gravitating towards the lower value stuff. I know I will get crap from the NGC fanboys but facts is facts.

you can find old internet pages here:

wayback machine

AnkurJ · January 24, 2014 11:11AM

Truthfully, at this point I have no problem with my coins in NGC/CAC holders. I feel they are equal to PCGS/CAC holders.
No need for crossovers for me.

roadrunner · January 24, 2014 11:22AM

<< I was surprised to receive this email ad from PCGS. Is this a sign that crossover attempts have dropped since the introduction of the 1% premium, or just a marketing venture? Any insights people? I will look into it further.

FYI, I have sent only a single coin in for crossover since the change, it was a higher dollar ANACS. Everything else I have just kept in NGC holders, or cracked and submitted raw. I used to send coins frequently for crossover, it's just become less advantagous recently. I don't blame PCGS for doing it, but perhaps it's been detrimental in the long run. >>

I'm not surprised. Between the few NGC coins getting crossed over these days and CAC pretty much weeding out all the lower end NGC coins, there's no reason to send them for crossover any more...even if free. The coin's
fetch less than PCGS money and often the next grade down (ie lower end NGC 65's realizing 64+ money). So you might as well just crack them out and then got a proper review of them. There used to be considerable
downside risk in doing this. But, these days that risk is now only 0-10% while the upside potential of a cross is + (20-30)%. I learned my lesson from 1998-2009 that crossovers just don't work for what I collect. When it's time
to sell them, just crack them out and let PCGS grade them. PCGS may be overestimated this 1% fee rather than looking at the factors in play (ie NGC coins bringing so much less money now you are almost forced to crack them
out when it's time to sell....unless you want a 20-40% haircut). I've been trying to cross choice MS and gem seated/bust/barber coins since 1998. Out of several dozen attempts I've yet to cross any. And a lot of those "misses"
later stickered once CAC showed up in the marketplace. And I'm not talking about crossing MS64 and MS65 common date Morgan dollars....because there the cross rate may really be 30-40%. It certainly isn't anywhere near
that in gem silver or gold type coins.

Billet7 · January 24, 2014 11:23AM

<< 

<< I also noticed that the average coin that gets graded is worth just north of $1000. Kind of interesting, not sure why. >>

Every gold 1 oz coin is over that amount. PCGS tends to do the higher value coins, NGC is gravitating towards the lower value stuff. I know I will get crap from the NGC fanboys but facts is facts.

you can find old internet pages here:

wayback machine >>

Sorry, I mean I'm not sure why I think it's interesting.

EagleEye · January 24, 2014 12:26PM

The show special is that you have to pay the fee and 1% only if your coin crosses to PCGS. The free part is getting your coin back in the NGC holder just as it was when you submitted it.

I think they have to be submitted at the Long Beach show.

lkeigwin · January 24, 2014 12:36PM

<< The show special is that you have to pay the fee and 1% only if your coin crosses to PCGS. The free part is getting your coin back in the NGC holder just as it was when you submitted it.

I think they have to be submitted at the Long Beach show. >>

So what is different? It is exactly the same for any non-LB submission. You pay the fee regardless. You pay the premium only if it crosses. Non-crosses come back in the original holder, as always.

Sorry...I don't get it.
Lance.

roadrunner · January 24, 2014 12:58PM

<< Truthfully, at this point I have no problem with my coins in NGC/CAC holders. I feel they are equal to PCGS/CAC holders.
No need for crossovers for me. >>

And that's how I felt too....before I went and sold those coins at major auction. They fetched far less than PCGS stickered coins and not much more than non-stickered PCGS coins were bringing.
But as you long as you don't have to sell, it makes no difference. Who knows, in 5 years this stickering effect could be long gone with NGC stickered coins fetching more than PCGS because they will have become so
rare (ie 90% of them cracked out and placed into equivalent PCGS holders). As long as one ever has to sell anything, things are just as we believe they are. Unfortunately, the market place is the great equalizer where our
thoughts and opinions really don't matter. What matters is what someone will pay. And it's probably true that at some point in time 4 figure and up stickered NGC coins will probably be a rare breed...as scarce as rattlers.
PCGS is right in that all the good coins eventually end up in PCGS holders. At some point in time someone will crack it and cross it. The only hitch to this would be yet another gradeflation era where PQ coins gravitate back
towards NGC as they did in 1998-2008. But for that you need a steadily rising market with enough new demand that these coins can get absorbed in their new higher grades.

cointime · January 24, 2014 1:10PM

It sounded real straight forward to me - submit a coin for cross over and if it does not cross - no charge.

PCGS will be accepting coins for the Crossover Service promotion from January 27 to February 1. The usual Crossover Service submission fee will be waived only during that time period on coins that do not crossover into PCGS holders.

Link to the page

Ken

wondercoin · January 24, 2014 1:41PM

Ken. You are right.

With there being no Heritage auction at Long Beach for the first time I can remember in many decades, PCGS needed to do something for its dealers and collectors that would bring them out to the show and this is just the thing. And, it is "win-win". Think about it... If you have a $90,000 coin, the $110 show grading fee is no big deal. The big deal is the $900 surcharge for the successful cross. PCGS still gets this on every successful cross. But, if you have a $300 NGC valued coin that jumps to $400-$500 in a PCGS holder ( and I have tons of them), you simply can not afford to submit them all at $65/coin show fee plus the surcharge. If 33% of these coins cross, you end up losing money as the submittor. But, now, I can submit these type of coins and pay about $70/coin grading fee to end up with a coin worth $100-$200 more as a PCGS coin (per my hypothetical). Win-win, as PCGS picks up extra grading fees too, as I would have never submitted these for cross in the first place at the show at $70 per. IMHO, PCGS should do this at every Long a Beach show from now on! They did this once before at the Hong Kong show as well as with world coins and I believe it was a good thing for PCGS. Keep up the "thinking outside the box" PCGS brain trust.

One final suggestion to PCGS management... Take the time to tell submittors exactly what their coins would have crossed at PCGS if the grade would have been within one point of the current grade. Why? Because, once again, it would be "win-win. There are many coins I might accept the one point downgrade on if given the choice. Or, even the half point downgrade to a +. In fact, do this only at Long Beach shows for now and allow submittors up until the time of the next Long Beach to resubmit their coin for the lower grade (so PCGS can make something on these coins and not end up grading them for free). Easy money for PCGS and a benefit to submittors too.

As always, just my 2 cents. Wondercoin.

KeyLargoRareCoins · January 24, 2014 2:15PM

<< It sounded real straight forward to me - submit a coin for cross over and if it does not cross - no charge.

PCGS will be accepting coins for the Crossover Service promotion from January 27 to February 1. The usual Crossover Service submission fee will be waived only during that time period on coins that do not crossover into PCGS holders.

Link to the page

Ken >>

That is not waht this page says Whether or not the coin crosses, you will be charged the standard grading fees; if the coin crosses, you will also be charged a Guarantee Premium based on the value of the coin.

tradedollarnut · January 24, 2014 2:45PM

The usual Crossover Service submission fee will be waived only during that time period on coins that do not crossover into PCGS holders.

Free crossovers at Long Beach?

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