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Is 1868 a good year for the 2 drachma?
bronco2078
Posts: 9,964 ✭✭✭✭✭
I was browsing completed listings of greek coins on ebay and stumbled over this .
worn 2 drachma 1868
Why did that go so high?
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bronco2078
Posts: 9,964 ✭✭✭✭✭
I was browsing completed listings of greek coins on ebay and stumbled over this .
worn 2 drachma 1868
Why did that go so high?
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Interesting that there is a nicer one, without the corrosion, available for half the money here. (not mine)
I was going through my foreign scrap silver and turned up a small pile of 1 and 2 drachmas. Most of what I have is 1911 dated , but there were 3 from 1873 and 1 1868. The only book I have on hand is the krause book from 1978.
The NGC page
That shows 1873 at 150 in VF but they don't go anywhere near that on ebay. The 1911 seems to go less than guide also so I just discounted what I thought was an inflated price on the 1868 .
But then again so is 1873 and the toughest of all in 63+ is the 1883. I have only one friend who owns the latter in any grade above 62 and his is an MS66 very prooflike and with a terrific toning. It's an impossible coin that will never show up again like this. Below my own 1873 PCGS SP63 (could have done better). The reason I sold the PCGS MS64 from 1868 was an annoying stain on the reverse, and before that I had it in NGC MS62 which also sold for $4.5K.
The 1911 is a one year type and clearly more easy to obtain up to AU, and even up to MS62. It gets very tricky and expensive over 63 and a 64 should be worth $3500-$3800. Below, my own PCGS MS64.
The one drachma from that period ( 6 dates: 4 young heads, 2 older heads) are a much more approachable way to obtain this type of coin in high grade, especially the 1868,1873 and 1910.
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I have a certain fascination with the silver coins of the Latin Monetary Union . Whenever I can grab them out of the foreign silver buckets at the local coin shops at melt I do that , assuming I have room in the budget .
I just did a count and I have 10 1 drachmas split between 1910 and 1911 and 3 of the 1911 2 drachmas as well as 1 1868 and 3 1873 2 drachmas. The 1910 and 1911 dates are all heavily mottled with black gunk . I wouldn't call it toning more like deposits.
Two questions ,
Due to the political situation at the time is it safe to say they wouldn't have circulated very long?
Because they were equivalent to all the other 1's and 2's might they have circulated freely in France , Italy etc. alongside those countries coins until their silver went into hiding ?
I always felt like 1 and 2 franc French coins for instance , would have disappeared from circulation by 1920 at the latest but in Switzerland the 1 and 2 franc coins would have stayed in circulation due to the economic strength of that country.
<< <i>I have a certain fascination with the silver coins of the Latin Monetary Union . Whenever I can grab them out of the foreign silver buckets at the local coin shops at melt I do that , assuming I have room in the budget . >>
Unless you are a fanatic supporter of ultra low grades such as my buddy ajaan
<< <i> I just did a count and I have 10 1 drachmas split between 1910 and 1911 and 3 of the 1911 2 drachmas as well as 1 1868 and 3 1873 2 drachmas. The 1910 and 1911 dates are all heavily mottled with black gunk . I wouldn't call it toning more like deposits. >>
Are you a hoarder? The 1911 drachma is rare in choice unc and above. Its price isn't that far below the 2 drachmai. The 1910 is extremely common and affordable up to MS63-64. If you'd like an MS66 though, you'd have to pay around $1200-$1300, twice the price of an MS65 . This price is unjustifiable, but Greece is going through a huge gradeflation ever since PCGS opened up for business in Paris.
<< <i>Two questions ,
Due to the political situation at the time is it safe to say they wouldn't have circulated very long?
Because they were equivalent to all the other 1's and 2's might they have circulated freely in France , Italy etc. alongside those countries coins until their silver went into hiding ?
I always felt like 1 and 2 franc French coins for instance , would have disappeared from circulation by 1920 at the latest but in Switzerland the 1 and 2 franc coins would have stayed in circulation due to the economic strength of that country. >>
Switzerland was the last country to leave the strict Monetary Union's technical demands. Two decades after all of the LMU countries had not only quit following the Union's rules, but had also dropped the gold standard,(along with a very big number of other countries, not officially LMU, but following the same weight, diameter and fineness in their coins), Switzerland was still minting gold and silver coins as if the 2 world wars never took place. Neutrality has its advantages.
Greece declared bankruptcy in the mid-late 1880s and the drachma took almost 25 years to recapture the same ratio with the French franc in 1909. I can't remember the exact year, because I'm posting this from memory and in the space of 190 years since the rebirth of Modern Greece, the country went bankrupt 13 times, most of which due to previous heavy loans with very unfavorable rates and conditions.
As a result, we have the minting of 1910 and 1911, but no more fivers were allowed to be minted, so the Cretan 5ers (as well as the smaller denominations from 1901) served as a good and reliable substitute. Crete had spent 15 years as a semi autonomous island before being annexed by Greece in 1913, and therefore it minted its own coins (and printed its own banknotes) in the meantime.
I don't really think that the Greek drachmas circulated as much abroad, as the French franc or other coins from the LMU did. The LMU was in fact a monetary union that was formed in order to follow the French franc and make it one of the dominant coins of Europe at the time, along with the British shilling which was used in the UK and the Commonwealth, the German mark and its followers as well as the Scandinavian unified currencies. History repeats itself in many ways, if you think of the recent Greek bankruptcy or the euro monetary union, without further comments on that.
As a collector, I can tell you that the 1910 drachma is not exactly readily available in unc, but it won't take very long or too many dollars to locate a choice unc example, if you're not disgusted by the sight of such shiny and new coins.
The last one is a Cretan 5 drachmai, graded very conservatively as AU50. With 2-3 exceptions not for sale, it's as good as they come.
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<< <i>[
Are you a hoarder? The 1911 drachma is rare in choice unc and above. Its price isn't that far below the 2 drachmai. The 1910 is extremely common and affordable up to MS63-64. If you'd like an MS66 though, you'd have to pay around $1200-$1300, twice the price of an MS65 . This price is unjustifiable, but Greece is going through a huge gradeflation ever since PCGS opened up for business in Paris.
Switzerland was the last country to leave the strict Monetary Union's technical demands. Two decades after all of the LMU countries had not only quit following the Union's rules, but had also dropped the gold standard,(along with a very big number of other countries, not officially LMU, but following the same weight, diameter and fineness in their coins), Switzerland was still minting gold and silver coins as if the 2 world wars never took place. Neutrality has its advantages.
Greece declared bankruptcy in the mid-late 1880s and the drachma took almost 25 years to recapture the same ratio with the French franc in 1909. I can't remember the exact year, because I'm posting this from memory and in the space of 190 years since the rebirth of Modern Greece, the country went bankrupt 13 times, most of which due to previous heavy loans with very unfavorable rates and conditions.
As a result, we have the minting of 1910 and 1911, but no more fivers were allowed to be minted, so the Cretan 5ers (as well as the smaller denominations from 1901) served as a good and reliable substitute. Crete had spent 15 years as a semi autonomous island before being annexed by Greece in 1913, and therefore it minted its own coins (and printed its own banknotes) in the meantime.
I don't really think that the Greek drachmas circulated as much abroad, as the French franc or other coins from the LMU did. The LMU was in fact a monetary union that was formed in order to follow the French franc and make it one of the dominant coins of Europe at the time, along with the British shilling which was used in the UK and the Commonwealth, the German mark and its followers as well as the Scandinavian unified currencies. History repeats itself in many ways, if you think of the recent Greek bankruptcy or the euro monetary union, without further comments on that.
As a collector, I can tell you that the 1910 drachma is not exactly readily available in unc, but it won't take very long or too many dollars to locate a choice unc example, if you're not disgusted by the sight of such shiny and new coins.
The last one is a Cretan 5 drachmai, graded very conservatively as AU50. With 2-3 exceptions not for sale, it's as good as they come. >>
I'm not a hoarder so much as a bullion stacker .
I always had the idea that unusual foreign coins were a good bet if bought at melt prices figuring I could flip them on ebay in small lots or singly. Over the years the execution of that has hit a few snags. I tended to keep the ones I liked instead of selling them. Sometimes its a bit of history about the time and location the coin came from , sometimes its the design.
The 1910 and 1911 drachmas had both things going for them . They are a beautiful design and come from an interesting period in history. I decided to sell off the 1868 and 1873 drachmas because they were lower grade pieces and not all that attractive. Normally when I do that I just start them at .99 cents and let it fly so I took a few group photos , started writing the listing and then decided to check and see what other completed listings had sold for. Seeing that $190 sale price made me pause and reevaluate. It makes sense to me what you said about a bidder getting carried away Especially with that other listing live on ebay at $90 .
Those coins you posted are beautiful . The high end examples really showcase the design on the 1911 . It's a shame they didn't make a 5 drachma in the later 1911 style , that design would be very impressive on that size coin . For that matter a 100 Drachma gold coin with that design would be pretty sweet also.
I do have some of the french francs in AU and unc from the WWI era I love that design too . Those are raw also, I only own 1 slabbed coin
<< <i>WOW! What a post D. I nominate this for a DPOTD. >>
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<< <i>
The 1910 and 1911 drachmas had both things going for them . They are a beautiful design and come from an interesting period in history. I decided to sell off the 1868 and 1873 drachmas because they were lower grade pieces and not all that attractive.
Those coins you posted are beautiful . The high end examples really showcase the design on the 1911 . It's a shame they didn't make a 5 drachma in the later 1911 style , that design would be very impressive on that size coin . For that matter a 100 Drachma gold coin with that design would be pretty sweet also.
>>
This is a very astute observation about the hypothetical appearance of a 1910-11 design in the size of a crown. However, like I said, Greece was not allowed to mint any more fivers by that time. I'm not sure if this had to do with the fact that they already knew that it was a matter of time until the LMU would come to an end, or because of Greece's unpredictable politics and unreliable economic policy. The reason that the 1910 drachma is much more attractive is credited to its engraver, George Iakovidis, the first Greek engraver of Greek coins since 1828-1831 and despite the fact that the coins were still minted in Paris and not in Athens. The previous designs were by Barre hence the tremendous resemblance with French coins.
Iakovidis decided to drop the usual coat of arms on the reverse, and used instead an allegorical design, with Thetis, mother of Achilles, waiting to deliver the arms to her son. At the time Greece was about to embark in an offensive 12 years continuous Balkan war that coincided with WW1 for a few years ,during which time it actually tripled its territories and despite the tragic ending of 1923 and the second loss of Constantinople to the newly formed NeoTurkish army under Kemal Ataturk who had overthrown the sultan in between and was backed by England and France who couldn't afford to see Russia conquering most of the Ottoman empire's European territories.
Five francs/liras/drachmas, had a .900 fineness, unlike the smaller denominations that had a 0.825 , and there were strict rules about how many fivers could be minted (according to each country's population) as well as the percentage of them necessary in a payment between citizens and the state. In other words, the fiver was the only denomination whose intrinsic value was equal to its face value. The reason that the smaller denominations had a slightly higher face value than their precious metal content, had to do with previous unpleasant experiences of massive hoarding, export and melting of the coins, by speculators, who had replaced them with other foreign coins of a smaller intrinsic value. The LMU technical standards made sure that this wasn't going to happen again.
<< <i>For that matter a 100 Drachma gold coin with that design would be pretty sweet also. >>
You are undoubtedly right, I totally agree with you. Still, the 50 and 100 drs gold from the 5 piece gold 1876 set, were actually coins intended to simply complete the set, but offered to dignitaries etc, rather than for real circulation, judging from their ultra tiny mintages of 176 and 72 pieces accordingly. Even the much richer Switzerland minted a single one year type 100 gold as late as 1925, and in a relatively very small mintage compared to the French or some Italian 100 francs/liras gold.
The irony is that Greece minted one more gold pair of 20 and 100 drs as late as 1940 (the order was placed at Spink), way after the LMU coins had ceased to exist, and only to commemorate the restoration of the monarchy, which had been abolished in 1923. The design is a heavy neoclassical late 19th century style, with King George B on the obverse, and the royal coat of arms on the reverse, but the mintage was very tiny, half of what was initially ordered, due to the Italian invasion of Albania in between, and the coins were proof and never meant for circulation anyway.It is believed that 70 gold 100 drs, 140 gold 20 drs and 500 silver crowns were finally delivered in Greece.
The silver crown (that should have had a denomination of 5 drachmai, but for some idiotic reason it had the same nominal value as the big gold coin, ie 100 drs) was a third coin that had been ordered, supposedly minted in 500 pieces, but it's been proved by now, that Spink never destroyed those dies, which somehow resurfaced in the early 1970s in the US, in the hands of Paramount who clearly minted several more silver crowns and most likely a few more gold 100s as well. The more recent unauthorized copies can be spotted by naked eye, due to the large number of hairlines on the fields, because of the aging of the dies in between.We now consider these coins as the first 3 NCLT Greek coins.
Still, all of them are very popular, very expensive ,albeit practically readily available if a collector can afford to pay for them. One of the reasons of their popularity is their precious metal content, and the other was that these are the only coins portraying King George B whose reign was short lived and mostly abroad, with a government in exile due to the German occupation in WW2, and a civil war between communists guerillas and the regular army that tore the country apart for 5 more years.
The final joke with using LMU's denominations for minting NCLT precious metal coins took place in 1970, during the military junta that governed the country from 1967 till 1974. This time, the self appointed generals, chose the old symbol of the phoenix and its rebirth from the ashes, but with an added soldier in front of the bird, and the royal coat of arms on the reverse. Two more silver coins were also minted, again with the absurd denominations of 50 and 100 drachmai, all of which very popular, on ebay or elsewhere.
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Once again another awesome post full of pictures
Of the 1873 2 drachmas I happen to have this is the most worn. I posted it on ebay alone just to see how it would do . I think I'll be lucky to get melt . This is the worst of the group so it should set a floor value for the type.
How did it get so worn with all the political turmoil( where I presume silver coinage was hoarded) and the removal of silver from the coinage in this denomination by 1926? Even when silver returned to Greek coins in 1930 these shouldn't have come out of hiding unless people traded them back and forth the way people do with 90% coinage here in the US now. It was physically larger and purer than the 1930 10 drachma nobody would spend it at face value. I wonder if because it was relatively the largest denomination coin in general use that made these circulate faster than say a barber half dollar would have here in the U.S.
Many of the better condition raw Drachma coins I have appear to have been put away a long time. They don't have a lot of circulation wear but they are mottled with black spots.
I tried leaving them in acetone for a month in a sealed container but I don't think it did much. Would they respond to something like mineral oil the way copper coins often do?