Question about this 1974 Rack Pack with Clemente and Rose on top
edmundfitzgerald
Posts: 4,306 ✭✭
74 Rack w/ Clemente and Rose
Obviously a beautiful rack because of Clemente and Rose on top, but how much does the centering on the star cards affect the value/desireability of the item ?
Obviously a beautiful rack because of Clemente and Rose on top, but how much does the centering on the star cards affect the value/desireability of the item ?
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But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep."
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
Collecting:
Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.
Perhaps its the centering or perhaps its something else (like the price for example).
The bottom line is that this pack is currently not very desireable based on the fact that it hasn't sold despite being
offered for a long time.
Dave
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Anyhow, any insight would be appreciated
http://thehistorykids.net/packs
<< <i>I am thinking about putting in an offer on this one. I don't have much experience with pre-1974 rack packs, but this is obviously one-of-a-kind. I am wondering if anyone on this forum has an idea if the Rose and Clemente are in their usual panels? Obviously the GAI label is meaningless or virtually meaningless. I have never seen a 73 rack with Rose or Clemente on top, so I have no frame of reference here. The short description is a bit worrisome to me as it seems resealed racks in the past have similarly short descriptions with the owner not wanting to go into great detail or wanting to discuss anything about it. Not necessarily a sign, but just my experience in the past. Same thing with that elsipep guy and the NC guys. The centering doesn't matter so much to me as long as the cards are sharp. I think the price is about $300 too high as evidenced by the fact that it has been on Ebay for ages. There have been many offers though, which leads to believe the seller is sticking to the price and would seem to indicate at least on the surface, the guy is not desperate to sell it.
Anyhow, any insight would be appreciated
http://thehistorykids.net/packs >>
Cards from 1973 Topps baseball can appear in different sections as they were all series or mixed series packs, though panels were consistent with same series cards in that specific cell. Cards in specific sections began in 1974 with the all series format, but became especially consistent and true beginning in 1975, as in 74 racks it is not uncommon to see same card in both middle and far sections from header card.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
102 then you are taking a risk (flips starting with those digits are from
the time period that GAI accuracy became very suspect).
As for value, in the current market a single 1973 rack without stars visible
is probably valued fairly at $550-$650 if it is in decent shape and verified
as legitimate by a reliable source.
FWIW, I picked up a GAI-slabbed 1973 rack with Aaron and Brooks Robinson
on top at National this year for under $1000 (and it was checked by myself, Cpamike
and Strve Hart). The flip number was before the problem era at GAI too.
Best if luck if you decide to go for it.
Dave
<< <i>The GAI label may not be meaningless. If the flip for it starts with
102 then you are taking a risk (flips starting with those digits are from
the time period that GAI accuracy became very suspect).
As for value, in the current market a single 1963 rack without stars visible
is probably valued fairly at $550-$650 if it is in decent shape and verified
as legitimate by a reliable source.
FWIW, I picked up a GAI-slabbed 1973 rack with Aaron and Brooks Robinson
on top at National this year for under $1000 (and it was check by myself, Cpamike
and Strve Hart). The flip number was before the problem era at GAI too.
Best if luck if you decide to go for it. >>
The 102 GAI cert #s have a bad rep due to all the grocery cellos being slabbed at that time, but the idea that packs with those cert #s are generally bad is a myth, as there are many packs outside that particular group that are questionable, too, and many packs with GAI cert #s begining with 102 that are perfectly fine.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
prior to those starting with 102.
That doesn't mean all 102s are bad, but based on observation that is the earliest
flip sequence that I am aware of where issues began to arise at GAI.
Dave
<< <i>I don't recall ever seeing or hearing about a bogus pack of any kind in a GAI slab
prior to those starting with 102.
That doesn't mean all 102s are bad, but based on observation that is the earliest
flip sequence that I am aware of where issues began to arise at GAI. >>
Unfortunately, David, this is not the case. The issues extend far beyond simply that group of GAI cert #s.
That said, the majority of packs even with that cert prefix are fine. Each pack must be judged on its merits (or lack thereof).
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Dave
Sorry to derail the thread op
It is NOT an absolute that all packs with flip numbers that start with XXX are bad (or all packs after flip number XXX) are bad.
All we know (from observation and hearsay) is that the GAI "quality control" issues started manifesting themselves with packs that
were graded at the time they were up to the flips that started with 102 (and later). I have not seen or heard of any GAI-graded packs
with flip numbers that start with digits lower than 102 which have come up as being no good (that does not mean there aren't any...
I just have not seen or heard of any bad ones from their earlier history).
Therefore, I agree with Tim that all 102s are NOT bad. However I also believe that I am accurate in my understanding that bad graded packs
from GAI (grocery cellos, racks and wax) started showing up when they were doing flips that started with 102 and higher (and not before).
That does not mean that they may not have made an honest error here or there prior to this time. I just have never seen or heard of a bogus
one with a flip that started with digits lower than 102 (hence the reason why I view GAI packs that start with 102 and higher with an extra
level of caution).
Hope that helps.
Dave
<< <i>I have a 75 mini pack starting with the cert 103 and a 84 topps football pack with cert 100. Are those good?
Sorry to derail the thread op >>
Not sure about football, but I could tell you if baseball 75 mini rack is likely authentic based on which cards are on front and back of each section.
If it's that one that had Ryan and Ryan HL cards on top that recently sold on ebay, the answer unfortunately is no.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>$550-$600 for a 73 rack with stars, has that gone down? When I was at the National somebody told me a dealer had a 73 rack box with a $20K price tag on it. Doing the math, that's $833 per pack. >>
I said a COMMON rack is probably around $550-$650. They don't come up that often even as single racks. I also said I bought a 1973 rack at National
this year (that was checked by several respected knowledgeable people) with 2 stars showing for under $1000.
As for a rack box, I would think there would definitely be a premium for a full rack box. Other than at this year's National, I cant recall one being offered
in many years. Plus the one at 2013 National was from series 2/3 (probably the most star-rich series of the whole set) and known to contain several star
racks, including one with Ryan showing.
Dave
From a straight "star" perspective, here's a comparison:
Series 1 - Ruth/Aaron/Mays, Clemente, Fingers, B Robinson, Aaron, Rose
Series 2 - Munson, Palmer, Aparicio, Killebrew, Gossage RC, F Robinson, Jenkins, Gibson,
Fisk, Blyleven, B Williams, Garvey, Ryan, Morgan, Hunter, Yaz, Jackson, Berra,
Series 3 - Perez, Kaline, Carlton, Mays, Brock, Carew, Seaver, Stargell, Bench
Series 4 - Perry, McCovey, All-Time Leader cards, Niekro
Series 5 - Cepeda, Yankees, Boone RC, Evans RC, Cey/Schmidt RC
In looking at what you could pull (assuming you were going to rip such a rack), I would argue that although the Schmidt RC is much more
valuable than any other card you could pull from series 2/3, you have a significantly greater chance of pulling value from the series 2/3 rack
because there are more than 5x as many stars to get.
This does not consider the fact that there are also some expensive lo-pops to be had across the whole set.
Overall, unless stars were showing, I would probably value a 1973 series 2/3 rack very similarly to a 1973 series 5 rack.
BTW - Note the lack of major stars in series 4. Then look at the Collect Auctions results for selling series 4 wax boxes. They used
to go for about $1800 a few years ago, but Collect Auctions has seen a dramatic ramp up in them since then. And when you consider
what could potentially be inside (see above) I have to ask why??? It's not like there's even a remote chance of pulling more than
a $1000-$1500 card versus (say) a series 5 box where a GEM MINT Schmidt RC would net you around $20K.
Perhaps just being "unopened" is enough these days, regardless of what the contents might be....
Dave
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>Back in early 90s, Mr. Mint sold a sealed 3-box 1973 5th series rack case for 4K. >>
And we all could not believe that someone paid so much!!!!!
Doug
Liquidating my collection for the 3rd and final time. Time for others to enjoy what I have enjoyed over the last several decades. Money could be put to better use.
you'll never be able to outrun a bad diet
<< <i>
<< <i>Back in early 90s, Mr. Mint sold a sealed 3-box 1973 5th series rack case for 4K. >>
And we all could not believe that someone paid so much!!!!! >>
LOL, I wonder if it's still sealed!
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>
<< <i>I have a 75 mini pack starting with the cert 103 and a 84 topps football pack with cert 100. Are those good?
Sorry to derail the thread op >>
Not sure about football, but I could tell you if baseball 75 mini rack is likely authentic based on which cards are on front and back of each section.
If it's that one that had Ryan and Ryan HL cards on top that recently sold on ebay, the answer unfortunately is no. >>
Tim it's a mini pack not rack. I've had it for a few years now.
Dave
Thanks for your input. The seal looks good to me as well as the corner folds.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I have a 75 mini pack starting with the cert 103 and a 84 topps football pack with cert 100. Are those good?
Sorry to derail the thread op >>
Not sure about football, but I could tell you if baseball 75 mini rack is likely authentic based on which cards are on front and back of each section.
If it's that one that had Ryan and Ryan HL cards on top that recently sold on ebay, the answer unfortunately is no. >>
Tim it's a mini pack not rack. I've had it for a few years now.
Dave
Thanks for your input. The seal looks good to me as well as the corner folds. >>
There were many 75 mini wax packs graded during the "103 cert # era," including most of those that were sent in after we broke a case on these boards (right after the Gary saga). Many of these packs also bear the designation "from a sealed case" on the flip.
You should not be questioning the authenticity of a pack based solely on a cert #. Each pack must be evaluated on its own merits. Of course, if you see an early 70s grocery cello in a GAI holder, you don't need any other info than to know it's no good.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Take the 1977 topps racks for example. These cards seem to be strictly collated so that the "rookie" series of cards (like Dawson, Jack Clark, Murphy etc.) always appear on the last panel. There was, however, a 1977 topps rack pack on sale on ebay for several months where the seemingly gem mint Dawson showed face-up in the middle panel. There is absolutely no chance the dealer who was selling this tampered with it as it was pulled from a rack box and the dealer would have no idea, nor the time, to do this. That being said I actually believe that there are people who can manufacture old rack packs from scratch 100% identical to the original factory ones. I have seen one dealer introduce an influx of rack packs from 1983 (like Gwynn Boggs racks and Gwynn Sandberg racks) 1984, and 1985 with all of the rookies and stars in the wrong panels all of the time (once in a while wouldn't raise a red flag, but with so many multiple star racks that have the stars in the wrong places it is definitely a manufacture). I bought a couple of these out of curiosity and there is no way to detect they are fakes --- they are made perfectly.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I have a 75 mini pack starting with the cert 103 and a 84 topps football pack with cert 100. Are those good?
Sorry to derail the thread op >>
Not sure about football, but I could tell you if baseball 75 mini rack is likely authentic based on which cards are on front and back of each section.
If it's that one that had Ryan and Ryan HL cards on top that recently sold on ebay, the answer unfortunately is no. >>
Tim it's a mini pack not rack. I've had it for a few years now.
Dave
Thanks for your input. The seal looks good to me as well as the corner folds. >>
There were many 75 mini wax packs graded during the "103 cert # era," including most of those that were sent in after we broke a case on these boards (right after the Gary saga). Many of these packs also bear the designation "from a sealed case" on the flip.
You should not be questioning the authenticity of a pack based solely on a cert #. Each pack must be evaluated on its own merits. Of course, if you see an early 70s grocery cello in a GAI holder, you don't need any other info than to know it's no good. >>
Tim,
This pack I picked up on eBay a few years back for now next to nothing. It does not have the from a sealed case marked on it. I can say a few years ago I opened a 73 wax pack gai graded from eBay that I'm almost certain was no good. Luckily back then the pack only set me back like 50 bucks.
<< <i>I always enjoy discussions regarding rack pack authenticity. While certainly there are members of this forum more knowledgable than me on rack packs from 1975, most of the 1975 topps mini rack packs I have seen (at least on ebay) show cards in panels different from those seen on the 1975 topps regular series. I think that there MUST be at least some variability some times. All 1975 topps mini rack packs I have seen with George Brett showing on top occur on the middle panel, rather than the panel closer to the header card, where the Brett card seems to usually occur in regular series racks. Some of you might know I own a 1975 topps mini rack pack with the Brett and Yount cards both showing on top (and both seemingly in different panels than they would occur in regular rack packs), though the cards are nearly perfect and I bought at a time (2000) when I would think tampering would be less of an issue. Seams are definitely a bit worn with some minor "cracking" along the bottom seam. Who knows?
Take the 1977 topps racks for example. These cards seem to be strictly collated so that the "rookie" series of cards (like Dawson, Jack Clark, Murphy etc.) always appear on the last panel. There was, however, a 1977 topps rack pack on sale on ebay for several months where the seemingly gem mint Dawson showed face-up in the middle panel. There is absolutely no chance the dealer who was selling this tampered with it as it was pulled from a rack box and the dealer would have no idea, nor the time, to do this. That being said I actually believe that there are people who can manufacture old rack packs from scratch 100% identical to the original factory ones. I have seen one dealer introduce an influx of rack packs from 1983 (like Gwynn Boggs racks and Gwynn Sandberg racks) 1984, and 1985 with all of the rookies and stars in the wrong panels all of the time (once in a while wouldn't raise a red flag, but with so many multiple star racks that have the stars in the wrong places it is definitely a manufacture). I bought a couple of these out of curiosity and there is no way to detect they are fakes --- they are made perfectly. >>
I am sorry to be the bearer of bad news but that 75 rack is not genuine. Both Brett and Yount are both from lower number sheet with one * on back and should both be located in the section next to the header card. It is not accurate to say that sequencing and collation for 1975 mini racks differs from that of regular 1975 racks. To the contrary, it is exactly the same. The mini racks you see with different cards in different sections are invariably racks with stars, not commons, on top. Just curious: which cards are on the back of the cells with the Brett and Yount cards?
Unfortunately, racks like these with multiple star cards on top are often resealed to enhance value, going back as far as the 1980s, even.
There is, however, a known aberration in both 1975 and 1977 racks in which cards from the two ** sheets are housed in both the middle and far sections of the rack, which explains why you will occasionally see a card like the Dawson RC (or the Rice RC in 1975) in the middle section. In those cases, however, the card on back of the cell should also be from the same two ** sheet. You should NEVER see cards from both one * and two ** sheets mixed in same cell in ANY rack. I have never seen a legitimate (or non-star-topped) 1975 rack in which you would find either the Brett in the middle section OR the Yount in the far section.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i> I have seen one dealer introduce an influx of rack packs from 1983 (like Gwynn Boggs racks and Gwynn Sandberg racks) 1984, and 1985 with all of the rookies and stars in the wrong panels all of the time (once in a while wouldn't raise a red flag, but with so many multiple star racks that have the stars in the wrong places it is definitely a manufacture). I bought a couple of these out of curiosity and there is no way to detect they are fakes --- they are made perfectly. >>
Are you referring to bruingirl on eBay?
I am not trying to name names as that has gotten me in hot water before on this forum, but...
<< <i>
<< <i> I have seen one dealer introduce an influx of rack packs from 1983 (like Gwynn Boggs racks and Gwynn Sandberg racks) 1984, and 1985 with all of the rookies and stars in the wrong panels all of the time (once in a while wouldn't raise a red flag, but with so many multiple star racks that have the stars in the wrong places it is definitely a manufacture). I bought a couple of these out of curiosity and there is no way to detect they are fakes --- they are made perfectly. >>
Are you referring to bruingirl on eBay? >>
I believe he is, but I'll say it for him. Stay away from bruingirl, the rack packs are all over the place except in the right places.
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep."
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
Collecting:
Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.