Why isn't the Newman collection in PCGS holders?

Manorcourtman · November 15, 2013 2:35AM

I sure would feel more comfortable bidding if they were. I am totally unimpressed with many of the NGC grades................

ambro51 · November 15, 2013 2:37AM

Coke/Pepsi

kimber45ACP · November 15, 2013 2:42AM

Topic discussed in this thread, in a couple of places. May be of some help

Manorcourtman · November 15, 2013 2:55AM

<< Topic discussed in this thread, in a couple of places. May be of some help >>

Thank you!!

RYK · November 15, 2013 3:06AM

<< Coke/Pepsi >>

BMW/Volkswagen

Broadstruck · November 15, 2013 3:11AM

I like the label that NGC designed for Newman it's pretty classy

RYK · November 15, 2013 3:18AM

<< I like the label that NGC designed for Newman it's pretty classy

>>

I also like the flower holder in the VW bug--nice touch.

maibockaddict · November 15, 2013 3:23AM

Id be curious if anything went on behind the scenes. Were PCGS and NGC asked to submit bids to grade the coins, the winner being lowest bidder, or the one who could do them all in a certain time frame? The coins are the coins, regardless of holder. With the wide variety of dates and types here, no matter what service, you will get undergraded, overgraded, and WTF results.

And what must NOT be overlooked is the FACT that PCGS has been SLAMMED with submissions the past many months, (they just graded 450 busties from one nut for example) so who knows what went on behind the scenes?

CaptHenway · November 15, 2013 3:34AM

<<

I sure would feel more comfortable bidding if they were. I am totally unimpressed with many of the NGC grades................ >>

Are you buying coins or plastic?

lusterlover · November 15, 2013 3:56AM

<< 

<<

I sure would feel more comfortable bidding if they were. I am totally unimpressed with many of the NGC grades................ >>

Are you buying coins or plastic? >>

With all due respect, like it or not, right or wrong, many are buying the plastic or pondering whether they will be able to cross a potential purchase.

RYK · November 15, 2013 3:58AM

<< 

<< 

<<

I sure would feel more comfortable bidding if they were. I am totally unimpressed with many of the NGC grades................ >>

Are you buying coins or plastic? >>

With all due respect, like it or not, right or wrong, many are buying the plastic or pondering whether they will be able to cross a potential purchase. >>

More important than that, the price/value is anchored to the grade.

coinbuf · November 15, 2013 4:01AM

<< 

<<

I sure would feel more comfortable bidding if they were. I am totally unimpressed with many of the NGC grades................ >>

Are you buying coins or plastic? >>

I assume thats a retorical question given this audence, the kool-aid jug is never half-empty around here.

CalGold · November 15, 2013 4:05AM

<<Are you buying coins or plastic? >> Said the dealer to the customer when trying to sell at full PCGS retail a coin that would not cross.

CG

mrpotatoheadd · November 15, 2013 4:32AM

I saw a coin that was cracked out of a recently graded MS65 ANACS holder that was sent to NGC and graded MS67 as well as an NGC AU details (hairlined) coin cracked out of an NGC holder and sent to PCGS, where it graded MS63 BN.

I'm sure there's a lesson in there somewhere.

NebuchadnezzarTheGreat · November 15, 2013 4:34AM

Because Heritage and NGC are very close?

djdilliodon · November 15, 2013 4:39AM

Whatever the reason why it doesn't matter! Anyone interested in blowing 7 figures on a coin for there personal enjoyment or for investment purposes should be viewing them in hand. If the plastic is your only deciding factor on whether you should bid or not, I'd say you need to get your head checked!

rays · November 15, 2013 4:52AM

It does matter, and only the consignor and Heritage are privy as to why.

crypto79 · November 15, 2013 4:52AM

<< I saw a coin that was cracked out of a recently graded MS65 ANACS holder that was sent to NGC and graded MS67 as well as an NGC AU details (hairlined) coin cracked out of an NGC holder and sent to PCGS, where it graded MS63 BN.

I'm sure there's a lesson in there somewhere. >>

Yes! The lesson is after millions of grading events one can find any type of occurrence they can think up to support any argument they can also think up. But it you look at the trends and patterns in the fog one will quickly see why NGC is NGC esp when factoring in liquidity.

I bet the person who made the call to go the grading route was not blind to the fact that these coins were going to push the envelope no matter the plastic so one should really just go with the biggest deal and company that has a trend to grade to their own standard even if it isn't aligned with the core market.

The part that surprised me was the number that stickered. With the mission statement to make a market in CAC coins, I guess having a blue blood pedigree eases JAs hesitation to lock in a open offer to make an offer as the total coin concept has many categories to earn extra credit.

Could be wrong, What do I know

djdilliodon · November 15, 2013 5:02AM

<< 

<< I saw a coin that was cracked out of a recently graded MS65 ANACS holder that was sent to NGC and graded MS67 as well as an NGC AU details (hairlined) coin cracked out of an NGC holder and sent to PCGS, where it graded MS63 BN.

I'm sure there's a lesson in there somewhere. >>

Yes! The lesson is after millions of grading events one can find any type of occurrence they can think up to support any argument they can also think up. But it you look at the trends and patterns in the fog one will quickly see why NGC is NGC esp when factoring in liquidity.

I bet the person who made the call to go the grading route was not blind to the fact that these coins were going to push the envelope no matter the plastic so one should really just go with the biggest deal and company that has a trend to grade to their own standard even if it isn't aligned with the core market.

The part that surprised me was the number that stickered. With the mission statement to make a market in CAC coins, I guess having a blue blood pedigree eases JAs hesitation to lock in a open offer to make an offer as the total coin concept has many categories to earn extra credit.

Could be wrong, What do I know >>

You are absolutely correct. I'm sure every possible scenario has happened already with crossing. Have you ever purchased a coin before that you knew was a lock and didn't cross? Sometimes it's the coin but more so politics or they just don't feel comfortable grading a coin through a plastic holder. Cracking is the only way to go and if that's the game you wanna play you better know your series first.

CaptHenway · November 15, 2013 5:26AM

<< I saw a coin that was cracked out of a recently graded MS65 ANACS holder that was sent to NGC and graded MS67 as well as an NGC AU details (hairlined) coin cracked out of an NGC holder and sent to PCGS, where it graded MS63 BN.

I'm sure there's a lesson in there somewhere. >>

As in, "Buy the coin, not the plastic!"?

CoinJunkie · November 15, 2013 5:29AM

<< 

<< I like the label that NGC designed for Newman it's pretty classy

>>

I also like the flower holder in the VW bug--nice touch.

>>

I'd prefer more power, less flower...

mrpotatoheadd · November 15, 2013 5:40AM

<< As in, "Buy the coin, not the plastic!"?

>>

That's kind of what I was thinking but the appetite for plastic + labels with numbers on them is strong with many.

maibockaddict · November 15, 2013 5:51AM

I should also throw out therr the NGC generation holders post Fattie and pre-prong are terrible for viewing a coin. I have traded all my older NGC holders (Bust Halves) except fatties for new prong holders and I have found a marketable improvement in my judgement of the NGC grade. Now, there is still a difference in how a coin will grade at pcgs on some coins, but I can see where NGC was coming from on many of them, and think that coins in prong holders would stand a better chance of crossing at grade than the old holders because you can actually see the coin surfaces better.

Just an observation.

Manorcourtman · November 15, 2013 6:12AM

100 by 6 am Saturday

tradedollarnut · November 15, 2013 6:22AM

Because the consignor tends to make more money when a bidder is staring at a 67 unstickered insert wondering if it will downgrade to a plus and sticker and how much to bid for that scenario vs when a bidder is staring at a 65+ CAC stickered insert wondering if it will upgrade and sticker again....JMHO

dbcoin · November 15, 2013 6:31AM

Not stirring the pot (though I do love that little jpeg), but maybe the fact that PCGS is running at record levels with hefty backlogs and NGC is (ahem, cough) begging for business (see NGC cuts Modern costs to $10 thread), maybe NGC just cut them a deal that PCGS was not willing to? Maybe PCGS figured some of the coins would be crossed at top dollar anyway so if 100 of the total coins cross, PCGS gets whatever NGC got for the grand total.

so the Newman folks maybe got a deal to grade everything for $250K from NGC vs $400K from PCGS? Those are made up numbers. I have no idea how many coins are involved but they are worth a lot of money.

RYK · November 15, 2013 6:32AM

<< Because the consignor tends to make more money when a bidder is staring at a 67 unstickered insert wondering if it will downgrade to a plus and sticker and how much to bid for that scenario vs when a bidder is staring at a 65+ CAC stickered insert wondering if it will upgrade and sticker again....JMHO >>

As I said earlier, "the price/value is anchored to the grade. "

nags · November 15, 2013 6:34AM

<< Because the consignor tends to make more money when a bidder is staring at a 67 unstickered insert wondering if it will downgrade to a plus and sticker and how much to bid for that scenario vs when a bidder is staring at a 65+ CAC stickered insert wondering if it will upgrade and sticker again....JMHO >>

When purchasing a 7 figure coin does the insert really matter? Out of curiosity, If we use the NGC slabbed collection's net sales price as a baseline, how would the Newman results differ from selling the same collection with PCGS slabs, ANACS slabs, or selling the entire collection raw?

tradedollarnut · November 15, 2013 6:36AM

When purchasing a 7 figure coin does the insert really matter?

Yes, to an extent. Plastic always has a value.

Photoguy · November 15, 2013 6:38AM

Missouri Cabinet (with many coins from Newman) are all PCGS graded.

AMRC · November 15, 2013 7:00AM

I will take that coin, hold the plastic please.

mozin · November 15, 2013 7:19AM

I believe one of the reasons the Newman collection went to NGC, was the fact that PCGS simply will not grade coins with certain kinds of toning, and NGC will grade them. I also believe NGC is more willing to grade coins with hairlines, and some of the Newman coins certainly have hairlines.

Just think of all the business PCGS will have, with many Newman NGC coins sent in for crossover, again, and again, and again. Also, don't forget that new 1% of PCGS retail fee for crossovers. PCGS could well come out the winner on the Newman set.

I wonder what the PCGS label will look like for the Newman crossovers. Bet we find out in about a week.

maibockaddict · November 15, 2013 8:18AM

<< I believe one of the reasons the Newman collection went to NGC, was the fact that PCGS simply will not grade coins with certain kinds of toning, and NGC will grade them. >>

Tom, I do agree with this statement, and I agree more with NGC's standards on toning, especially on 200 year old coins where the types of natural toning acquired can almost be infinite when you take into account all the different environments and possible storage options for these coins. Though I can see PCGS's point, where coin doctors have ruined their acceptance for many toned coins...look at all the questionables Whitham and Frederick got....

dbcoin · November 15, 2013 8:32AM

<< I believe one of the reasons the Newman collection went to NGC, was the fact that PCGS simply will not grade coins with certain kinds of toning, and NGC will grade them. I also believe NGC is more willing to grade coins with hairlines, and some of the Newman coins certainly have hairlines.

Just think of all the business PCGS will have, with many Newman NGC coins sent in for crossover, again, and again, and again. Also, don't forget that new 1% of PCGS retail fee for crossovers. PCGS could well come out the winner on the Newman set.

I wonder what the PCGS label will look like for the Newman crossovers. Bet we find out in about a week. >>

Well stated

Nic · November 15, 2013 9:03AM

ambro51 · November 15, 2013 10:46AM

I think Mozin hit the nail on the head. Hairlines=Genuine Details slabs from PCGS and a preponderance of these would taint the Colldction.

thisnamztaken · November 15, 2013 10:48AM

<< 

<< Coke/Pepsi >>

BMW/Volkswagen >>

Six of one/a half dozen of the other...

amwldcoin · November 15, 2013 10:55AM

<< 

<< Coke/Pepsi >>

BMW/Volkswagen >>

LOL! I traded an AMG Benz and a Suburban for my VW! I am still tickled pink with my VW after 13K miles!

roadrunner · November 15, 2013 11:08AM

Big time collections have been sold raw as recent as Vermeulle (2001) and Queller (2002). They did that because the buyers would naturally push the observed grades higher. This is basically the same
concept with Newman. But rather than pushing them higher as they are already graded, it's more a matter of will the grades stick? In any case, most of the coins will probably sell for the labeled grades,
not one grade lower. If the Newman MS bust/seated quarters and halves coins were spread out all over the country w/o a Newman pedigree attesting to their long term storage.....how many would get through
the TPG's on their own? In thinking back on the "raw" Pittman and Eliasberg collections, those coins were pretty liberally graded as they hit the TPG's following the sale. That's really when the loosening took off.

I don't think the Coke/Pepsi comparison even applies.

erickso1 · November 15, 2013 11:23AM

Wait. I thought holders and phones were counter cyclical. You mean that all the rattlers and old anacs commems I've been buying aren't the prefered holder of the market??? Dag nab it.

mrpotatoheadd · November 15, 2013 11:52AM

<< 

<< I saw a coin that was cracked out of a recently graded MS65 ANACS holder that was sent to NGC and graded MS67 as well as an NGC AU details (hairlined) coin cracked out of an NGC holder and sent to PCGS, where it graded MS63 BN.

I'm sure there's a lesson in there somewhere. >>

Yes! The lesson is after millions of grading events one can find any type of occurrence they can think up to support any argument they can also think up. But it you look at the trends and patterns in the fog one will quickly see why NGC is NGC esp when factoring in liquidity. >>

It's not just one occurrence in millions. When the popular perception is that TPG Coke is preferrable to TPG Pepsi, TPG Pepsi coins that are considered to be equal to TPG Coke coins will get crossed to TPG Coke slabs, leaving the ones that aren't considered equal to remain in TPG Pepsi slabs, reinforcing the popular perception that TPG Pepsi coins are not as desirable as TPG Coke coins.

edited to add... of course, some people actually look at the coins and make their own determination regarding whether the price asked is reasonable or not regardless of whether it's in a Coke or Pepsi slab, and what the slab insert says. I suspect it's likely these people are in the minority of collectors.

johnny9434 · November 16, 2013 2:02AM

<< I will take that coin, hold the plastic please.

>>

that works best. ups/fed ex.

Why isn't the Newman collection in PCGS holders?

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