First PCGS graded... Hard Times Token

Broadstruck · October 12, 2013 1:20AM

Well beyond the Feuchtwanger German silver issues.

Not sure if this means they are doing the whole HTT series yet?

Maybe just the 1/2c as it's been in Redbook's Half Cent section forever and collected by collectors of such ever since Wayte Raymond included it on his boards.

Cert Verification Info Link

Cert Verification #: 28236955
PCGS Coin #: 521356
Date, mintmark: 1837
Denomination: Token
Variety: HT-73 Copper Half Cent Worth of
Country: The United States of America
Grade: AU58BN
Holder Type: Standard
Population: 1

coinsarefun · October 12, 2013 1:29AM

Weeeeeee let it begin

MidLifeCrisis · October 12, 2013 1:39AM

Good

LanceNewmanOCC · October 12, 2013 2:23AM

.
any chance of getting an obv shot of the slab with the coin in it?
.

keets · October 12, 2013 2:25AM

JMHO, but if PCGS has begun grading HTT's I think they have stepped out onto a slippery slope too far and they may not be able to pull themselves back.

Broadstruck · October 12, 2013 2:27AM

<< JMHO, but if PCGS has begun grading HTT's I think they have stepped out onto a slippery slope too far and they may not be able to pull themselves back. >>

CWT's are a far greater challenge as there's probably more then 8,500 issues, varieties, and mules combined?

Broadstruck · October 12, 2013 2:28AM

<< .
any chance of getting an obv shot of the slab with the coin in it?
. >>

Nope as I found it on a dealers site with just obv/rev images.

coinsarefun · October 12, 2013 2:32AM

<< 

<< JMHO, but if PCGS has begun grading HTT's I think they have stepped out onto a slippery slope too far and they may not be able to pull themselves back. >>

CWT's are a far greater challenge as there's probably more then 8,500 issues, varieties, and mules combined? >>

I agree HTT s are probably one of the easier ones
to get right as broadstruck mentions cwt are over 8500
And Conder tokens are up there as well

I think it will be one of the best things that brings
the market more attention and it's rightfull place in the market
as they are true rarities and just as important to our
hobby as coins.

Broadstruck · October 12, 2013 2:33AM

<< 

<< 

<< JMHO, but if PCGS has begun grading HTT's I think they have stepped out onto a slippery slope too far and they may not be able to pull themselves back. >>

CWT's are a far greater challenge as there's probably more then 8,500 issues, varieties, and mules combined? >>

I agree HTT s are probably one of the easier ones
to get right as broadstruck mentions cwt are over 8500
And Conder tokens are up there as well

I think it will be one of the best things that brings
the market more attention and it's rightfull place in the market
as they are true rarities and just as important to our
hobby as coins. >>

Early and 1845-1860 Merchant Tokens would be pretty easy too.

keets · October 12, 2013 2:42AM

you both seem to have mis-interpreted my comment so I will clarify...................

it is my opinion that PCGS has taken it upon themselves to go the way of NGC. I thought it was a good thing and over-due when they began encapsulating SC$'s but at the same time I suspected it might just be the starting point for an expansion into Exonumia. now that they have started, where will they stop?? SC$'s seemed logical because some medals were already acceptable and a large percentage of the HK catalogue is either Mint issued or struck by the Mint at the event. by choosing to encapsulate HTT's it is only a stretch to imagine that PCGS will sooner-than-later slab anything you send them as NGC does.

that is a bad thing.

Broadstruck · October 12, 2013 2:48AM

<< you both seem to have mis-interpreted my comment so I will clarify...................

it is my opinion that PCGS has taken it upon themselves to go the way of NGC. I thought it was a good thing and over-due when they began encapsulating SC$'s but at the same time I suspected it might just be the starting point for an expansion into Exonumia. now that they have started, where will they stop?? SC$'s seemed logical because some medals were already acceptable and a large percentage of the HK catalogue is either Mint issued or struck by the Mint at the event. by choosing to encapsulate HTT's it is only a stretch to imagine that PCGS will sooner-than-later slab anything you send them as NGC does.

that is a bad thing. >>

Expansion isn't a bad thing as long as they have qualified graders and finalizers familiar with exonumia to handle the task.

keets · October 12, 2013 2:57AM

well, I would ask where should they stop?? I think that part of NGC's problem is that they attempt to do too much and it cheapens the brand name; all you need to do is visit eBay where it can be laughable to see what is in an NGC holder. strangely, though they do all that, I once had them return a Gallery Mint "One Concept" Dollar Pattern as something they don't grade!!

LanceNewmanOCC · October 12, 2013 3:00AM

<< 

<< .
any chance of getting an obv shot of the slab with the coin in it?
. >>

Nope as I found it on a dealers site with just obv/rev images. >>

ok. i did presume it was yours

.

Broadstruck · October 12, 2013 3:00AM

<< well, I would ask where should they stop?? I think that part of NGC's problem is that they attempt to do too much and it cheapens the brand name; all you need to do is visit eBay where it can be laughable to see what is in an NGC holder. strangely, though they do all that, I once had them return a Gallery Mint "One Concept" Dollar Pattern as something they don't grade!! >>

As long as they don't grade plastic food stamp tokens and poker chips like ICG IMHO it's fine.

PCGS Currency for what it's worth started grading Wooden Nickels about a year ago... Not sure though how Premium Paper Quality applies to wood unless they mean Pulp?

EXOJUNKIE · October 12, 2013 3:07AM

<< you both seem to have mis-interpreted my comment so I will clarify...................

it is my opinion that PCGS has taken it upon themselves to go the way of NGC. I thought it was a good thing and over-due when they began encapsulating SC$'s but at the same time I suspected it might just be the starting point for an expansion into Exonumia. now that they have started, where will they stop?? SC$'s seemed logical because some medals were already acceptable and a large percentage of the HK catalogue is either Mint issued or struck by the Mint at the event. by choosing to encapsulate HTT's it is only a stretch to imagine that PCGS will sooner-than-later slab anything you send them as NGC does.

that is a bad thing. >>

It could backfire on our host and weaken their brand.

Moreover, so many series are already so cross-contaminated by crackout artists and the proud kool-aid drinkers (on BOTH sides of the street) that it would be nice to just leave HTTs, CWT/CWSCs, Merchants, etc. alone.

Exonumia remains one of the wholesome, uncontaminated fields in numismatics and I'd like to see it stay that way.

Only speaking for myself of course, but I'd prefer our host not jump further into Exonumia. It will ultimately be bad for the average collector who collects for enjoyment over business. But the number of average collectors has been declining for at least the past 15 years anyway....

Broadstruck · October 12, 2013 3:28AM

<<

It could backfire on our host and weaken their brand.

Moreover, so many series are already so cross-contaminated by crackout artists and the proud kool-aid drinkers (on BOTH sides of the street) that it would be nice to just leave HTTs, CWT/CWSCs, Merchants, etc. alone.

Exonumia remains one of the wholesome, uncontaminated fields in numismatics and I'd like to see it stay that way.

Only speaking for myself of course, but I'd prefer our host not jump further into Exonumia. It will ultimately be bad for the average collector who collects for enjoyment over business. But the number of average collectors has been declining for at least the past 15 years anyway....

>>

ExoJ, I agree with you about the wholesome factor and will continue to treat any TPG graded example just as I would any raw purchase. Honestly my main reasoning for seeing them do HTT's would be more so to see if it wiggled some tokens out of the woodwork that otherwise wouldn't become available? Now if they incorporated plus grading to exonumia IMHO it could be the kiss of death as exomumists don't want & will not buy into it, so please just reserve it only for federal issued coinage.

ambro51 · October 12, 2013 3:37AM

The dangers of misattributions being taken for fact by those too uninformed to do the legwork research themselves are my problem with PCGS doing this. Of course, hiring Broadstruck to review attributions would solve that.

Broadstruck · October 12, 2013 3:51AM

<< The dangers of misattributions being taken for fact by those too uninformed to do the legwork research themselves are my problem with PCGS doing this. Of course, hiring Broadstruck to review attributions would solve that. >>

ambro51, Thanks as I do speak fluent Low and Rulau, but have absolutely no desire to move to California... Now my driveway has been Brinks truck tested!

Seriously they couldn't do any worse then NGC has since Scott left as their whole HTT population report is now fried do to continual major attribution errors.

MFH · October 12, 2013 6:00AM

<< The dangers of misattributions being taken for fact by those too uninformed to do the legwork research themselves are my problem with PCGS doing this. Of course, hiring Broadstruck to review attributions would solve that. >>

I agree, hiring Broadstruck would be a very smart move. The TPG could send the HTT's to him in bulk
and he would do the attributions from home. Many other individuals are hired by TPG's to do the same
type of grading / attributions on many other series.

Think about it, PCGS .....

Zoins · October 12, 2013 6:23AM

I think this is a good move. More pieces documented and on CoinFacts will help spread information about this area of the hobby.

coinsarefun · October 12, 2013 6:25AM

Speaking of merchant tokens being graded

coinsarefun · October 12, 2013 9:05AM

<< you both seem to have mis-interpreted my comment so I will clarify...................

it is my opinion that PCGS has taken it upon themselves to go the way of NGC. I thought it was a good thing and over-due when they began encapsulating SC$'s but at the same time I suspected it might just be the starting point for an expansion into Exonumia. now that they have started, where will they stop?? SC$'s seemed logical because some medals were already acceptable and a large percentage of the HK catalogue is either Mint issued or struck by the Mint at the event. by choosing to encapsulate HTT's it is only a stretch to imagine that PCGS will sooner-than-later slab anything you send them as NGC does.

that is a bad thing. >>

I don't think I misinterpreted your comment. I took your statement to be a question of where will it all end at?

I was agreeing with Broadstruck's statement that since there are not as many varieties as CWT's or Conder Tokens, it should not be that difficult
a task to take on.

In my opinion NGC's task of attributing all the CWT and Conder varieties are quite daunting and yes they do make quite a few mistakes but they usually are willing
to correct them. As far as taking on too much well............I don't blame a company that takes the publics money if the public wants to give it. If the demand is there why shouldn't
someone do it? How far do you take it? Well as far as the customer base wants it to be taken. And to the point where PCGS feels comfortable and feels they are the markets leader
and innovator.

With the situation of PCGS taking on SCD's, I think as in all grading companies, you are only as good as your graders and guarantee's are.
This should be true with anything thing they grade, coins, tokens and medals. I also think that as in anything new to a company it takes time and there
will always be growing pains. If a company does not continue to grow and change with the market they become complacent and will lose to the competition.

HTT's and Merchant Store Cards still get a bad rap by some collectors but I see it slowly changing. There are true rarities that the collector appreciates and
slowly the rest of the collecting community is learning that there is just as much history and importance in these as any other rare coin, patterns or Gold Territorial.
Territorials were privately minted and these are not questioned and are slabbed by both major grading companies.

I am personally very happy to see PCGS taking on the difficult task of giving attention to HTT's, CWT's and Merchant tokens and wish them all the best. I will assume that
they wouldn't even consider this unless they have something in there back pocket as an ace in the hole with regards to graders and the main person that will be running the show.

I plan on meeting up with Don at a Las Vegas or Long Beach show and discuss the possibilities of bringing all of my HTT's, Merchant Store cards, CWT's and Conder tokens
to be crossed over and have some trueviews done.

Well.....usually when I post this much thought into a thread it sinks to the bottom so I hope a few people will see it

my 2cents

coinkat · October 12, 2013 9:24AM

Interesting thread- wooden nickels graded. I never knew that was happening. Are the ones pictured that rare? Seriously- I don't know.

coinsarefun · October 12, 2013 9:32AM

<< Interesting thread- wooden nickels graded. I never knew that was happening. Are the ones pictured that rare? Seriously- I don't know. >>

The one posted at the top of this thread is not that rare (r2) I think but it is very popular with token collectors as well as
copper collectors as there were no 1837 1/2 cents minted. So it is sought by both sides of the fence.

EXOJUNKIE · October 12, 2013 10:31AM

<< 

<< ... their whole HTT population report is now fried due to continual major attribution errors. >>

Type2 · October 12, 2013 3:31PM

So is this a HT-73 is it the same one?

coinsarefun · October 12, 2013 4:25PM

<< So is this a HT-73 is it the same one? >>

Yes.........gonna send it in?

Proof · October 13, 2013 12:00AM

Where do you look in the PCGS price guide for HTT's ?

Broadstruck · November 14, 2013 1:17PM

Here's the PCGS MS66BN graded example from the Missouri Cabinet.

TPRC · November 15, 2013 12:10AM

I've got a small box of HTTs, Merchant tokens and CWTs ready to ship to PCGS when and if they make the move. However, my half cent token is merely an au.

messydesk · November 15, 2013 12:50AM

If
- there is a standard, market-accepted attribution guide for something and
- PCGS has developed expertise for using it and
- PCGS is willing and able to guarantee their work as they do for other coins and
- PCGS is able to institutionalize the knowledge required to continue grading and attributing something and
- The items in question are relevant to numismatics

then I don't see a problem with them grading them.

Grading things before standards or expertise have been established would cheapen the brand, as the sacrosanct expectation that your coins (or HTTs) are always being graded and attributed by a credible expert would no longer be legitimate.

Broadstruck · November 15, 2013 1:24AM

It should also be mentioned (although I missed it but coinsarefun brought it to my attention) that this is the first non Feuchtwanger HTT that CAC stickered.

First PCGS graded... Hard Times Token

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