Befuddled as to spots on a toned proof

coinsarefun · June 24, 2013 12:38PM

Okay, I won this toned proof on Heritage and last week it arrived. I have been down sick with a very lousy flu and
took a closer look at this toned proof. Besides its clear crack/scratch that was not evident on the auction image (and countless smaller scratches)

What worries me the most is that I cannot figure out what the white spots are in the right field of the obverse....it has been a head scratcher to me.
They are definitely on the coin and not the holder.

I don't think they are milk spots but what else could they be????
It is not a fingerprint either.

Does anyone else have an idea?

Link to the original auction here.

Here is the auction image and below is my image.

magikbilly · June 24, 2013 12:49PM

Hello,

I guess it is unlikely but improper rinse? Nah... It looks like a print swipe with a sneeze so to speak. Strikes me many parts are parallel, finger or no. Maybe they are two things not related? Some sort of contaminant/finger oil etc. with another substance that left the "clear spots"? I am sure others will have better answers.

Eric

braddick · June 24, 2013 12:52PM

At $500. I agree, I wouldn't be happy with that one.

magikbilly · June 24, 2013 12:57PM

Unless that toning is super deep/dark I would the hold the Obv. at 90 degrees to a white bit of paper and maybe get a bit better look at the substance(s)/marks themselves.
Newspaper is great for seeing minor disturbances in untoned Proof mirrors like on dipped Walkers where the mirrors might be slightly "bitten" and not quite the same by a removed tone or other.
Worth a try anyway.

Eric

Edit to add: I dunno AT - not part of the question but perhaps part of the answer. The way it seems to have formed - some kind of weird condensate reacting with previously mentioned contaminant(s)?

UtahCoin · June 24, 2013 1:01PM

I'll be the first to say it....
I think it's AT

milkcoin · June 24, 2013 1:03PM

That's a very, and I mean, very high price on the said coin to later find out it had the swipe marks it does. Did you view the coin in lot viewing or was this an internet Tuesday auction of theirs?
I would be on the phone with Heritage right away explaining the issue and seeing if there is anything they can do about it. I would be very unhappy with this purchase.

blu62vette · June 24, 2013 1:04PM

I am more befuddled on how they show such bad auction images

coinsarefun · June 24, 2013 2:37PM

<< Unless that toning is super deep/dark I would the hold the Obv. at 90 degrees to a white bit of paper and maybe get a bit better look at the substance(s)/marks themselves.
Newspaper is great for seeing minor disturbances in untoned Proof mirrors like on dipped Walkers where the mirrors might be slightly "bitten" and not quite the same by a removed tone or other.
Worth a try anyway.

Eric

Edit to add: I dunno AT - not part of the question but perhaps part of the answer. The way it seems to have formed - some kind of weird condensate reacting with previously mentioned contaminant(s)? >>

Thanks Eric, it is very deeply toned over the devices and fields so it would be very difficult to see.

As the the AT statement by UtahCoin.........umm....no its not AT.

GrumpyEd · June 24, 2013 2:43PM

Isn't the thing on the left arrow a fiber or scratch on the slab?

It looks like it goes past the coin into the white part of the slab.

coinsarefun · June 24, 2013 2:47PM

<< Isn't the thing on the left arrow a fiber or scratch on the slab?

It looks like it goes past the coin into the white part of the slab. >>

Yes, you are correct. This is the image I sent to Heritage showing them the long crack/scratch that is one the slab but was
not on the auction image. The coin was shipped in a corregated sticky paper inside a USPS envelope, no ther protection.

The other arrow points out to them the strange white pattern spots in the field of the proof.

Broadstruck · June 24, 2013 2:48PM

I wouldn't be happy either as based on the 2 pics posted it looks like some of the field color fell off while in transit

CoinJunkie · June 24, 2013 2:49PM

With the coin only receiving a 66 grade, one had to assume there might be some sort of issue.
Did you have someone view it before bidding?

coinsarefun · June 24, 2013 2:53PM

<< With the coin only receiving a 66 grade, one had to assume there might be some sort of issue.
Did you have someone view it before bidding? >>

No, I only relied on the auction images. As far as grade goes, I have a PR65DCAM that is a knock out(PCGS)
And to find a toned ASE let alone toned proof from NGC is almost a unique coin coin in itself.

CoinJunkie · June 24, 2013 2:56PM

<< 

<< With the coin only receiving a 66 grade, one had to assume there might be some sort of issue.
Did you have someone view it before bidding? >>

No, I only relied on the auction images. As far as grade goes, I have a PR65DCAM that is a knock out(PCGS)
And to find a toned ASE let alone toned proof from NGC is almost a unique coin coin in itself. >>

Well, I'm sorry it didn't work out. I personally wouldn't be comfortable bidding on a coin with such
dark images sight unseen. Keep us posted as to whether Heritage can do anything for you.

grote15 · June 24, 2013 2:57PM

With the kind of markup a toned coin like this commands, I'd be somewhat skeptical about the color being NT vs AT. There's something about the color in your photo that just doesn't seem natural to my eye.

Unknown · June 24, 2013 3:02PM

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keets · June 25, 2013 8:12AM

you aren't the first collector who has ended up with a Heritage coin with "problems" which weren't visible in their online pictures, and you almost certainly won't be the last. like all sellers, they tend to show a coin's attributes when they can and, whether intentionally or accidentally, will not disclose or make visible the problems. I would think that in the very least the cracked slab should have been noted in the description. that crack is probably the root cause of the other problems; it is an old encapsulation, at least 10 years, so there has been ample time for contaminants and moisture to enter and do their dirty work. I would think the coin came out of its Velvet Box toned and has some friction which accounts for the grade. it probably got darker and acquired the spotting while in the holder.

JMHO of course, but since these coins are your particular niche in the Hobby, shouldn't you be explaining them to us instead?

SUMORADA · June 25, 2013 8:27AM

I have to go along with Utah on this one.....coin looks AT......sorry jmo.

LindeDad · June 25, 2013 10:18AM

All I can say is that's a pretty deep hole you jumped into there.

But most of us have done the same thing a few time in our lives.

I got a couple of Franklins back in BBs on my last submission that I bought back in the 80's.

djdilliodon · June 25, 2013 10:34AM

<< I have to go along with Utah on this one.....coin looks AT......sorry jmo. >>

Purple, blue, and gold are the easiest colors to produce artificially and most silver eagles are toned with all 3 of those. Because of that its one of the reasons I never jumped into collecting them. I would jump on one that displayed the classic green some of us go nuts for like seen on 58 D franklins

.

To the OP I truly feel bad about this situation. When listed if none of the flaws showed in the pics it should have been noted in the auction. Hopefully you can return it and get your money back!

sparky64 · June 25, 2013 10:39AM

Heritage must have a decent return policy, don't they?
That is, if you're not happy with it.
I looked but couldn't find their policy quickly.

I'll bet it's amazing in hand.
But those 'spots' have grabbed your attention and may be a deal breaker.
I'm guessing the slab crack facilitated something that was dormant otherwise.

epcjimi1 · June 25, 2013 10:52AM

I'm no expert but I'm cutting wood with the AT crowd.

No tone on date, wrapping up to the rising sun, non congruous color tone on fold on skirt opposed to surrounding area.

SeattleSlammer · June 25, 2013 11:06AM

<< That's a very, and I mean, very high price on the said coin to later find out it had the swipe marks it does. Did you view the coin in lot viewing or was this an internet Tuesday auction of theirs?
I would be on the phone with Heritage right away explaining the issue and seeing if there is anything they can do about it. I would be very unhappy with this purchase. >>

tlbrown · June 25, 2013 11:28AM

Would this be worth a ReHolder from NGC? To me the scratch on the holder is more distracting the blotchy toning on the field. Just a thought to make a not so good situation a little better.

keets · June 25, 2013 12:23PM

Purple, blue, and gold are the easiest colors to produce artificially and most silver eagles are toned with all 3 of those. Because of that its one of the reasons I never jumped into collecting them. I would jump on one that displayed the classic green some of us go nuts for like seen on 58 D franklins

that green on is a result of the packaging. these ASE Proofs tend to tone with the colors you mentioned due to their packaging, similar to the early 1970's PL Canadian Dollars. while it's easy to call into question vibrant tone on almost any coin nowadays the one pictured is pretty typical.

NotSure · June 25, 2013 12:59PM

<< At $500. I agree, I wouldn't be happy with that one. >>

Straight forward, simple, and nothing but the truth. As others have said, I'd be on the horn with them myself, and using their return policy.

I, personally, won a top-pop toned Washie variety in the LB HA auction. Being someone who prefers blast white, the toning looked a bit muddled in the HA image, but in hand, it's a much more natural 'graduality' (is that a word?) of it's toning, making it nicer than imaged. BUT, the image didn't make it look better, hide slab scratches, etc. The image actually made my coin look better in hand, where this ASE, the opposite happened. Sure feel for ya, Steph, but that's why they have a return policy, especially when the image 'helps' the coin, and garners a bigger premium. Just hope they do right by you, Steph.

Broadstruck · June 25, 2013 1:10PM

<< 

<< At $500. I agree, I wouldn't be happy with that one. >>

Straight forward, simple, and nothing but the truth. As others have said, I'd be on the horn with them myself, and using their return policy.

I, personally, won a top-pop toned Washie variety in the LB HA auction. Being someone who prefers blast white, the toning looked a bit muddled in the HA image, but in hand, it's a much more natural 'graduality' (is that a word?) of it's toning, making it nicer than imaged. BUT, the image didn't make it look better, hide slab scratches, etc. The image actually made my coin look better in hand, where this ASE, the opposite happened. Sure feel for ya, Steph, but that's why they have a return policy, especially when the image 'helps' the coin, and garners a bigger premium. Just hope they do right by you, Steph. >>

Where is this return policy that your mentioning as it's always been my understanding at major auction houses you bid, you win, good or bad you own it

Moldnut · June 25, 2013 1:12PM

<< 

<< 

<< At $500. I agree, I wouldn't be happy with that one. >>

Straight forward, simple, and nothing but the truth. As others have said, I'd be on the horn with them myself, and using their return policy.

I, personally, won a top-pop toned Washie variety in the LB HA auction. Being someone who prefers blast white, the toning looked a bit muddled in the HA image, but in hand, it's a much more natural 'graduality' (is that a word?) of it's toning, making it nicer than imaged. BUT, the image didn't make it look better, hide slab scratches, etc. The image actually made my coin look better in hand, where this ASE, the opposite happened. Sure feel for ya, Steph, but that's why they have a return policy, especially when the image 'helps' the coin, and garners a bigger premium. Just hope they do right by you, Steph. >>

Where is this return policy that your mentioning as it's always been my understanding at major auction houses you bid, you win, good or bad you own it

>>

This is news to me too.

DaggoB · June 25, 2013 1:35PM

I bought an Oregon Commemorative a few years ago from Heritage. The toning was exceptional but their pictures did not capture the PVC. Heritage said the sale was final and I had to take it up with NGC. Short story- NGC removed the PVC at no charge and refunded my shipping. Heritage FAQ Terms and Conditions COINS and CURRENCY TERM F: Since we cannot examine encapsulated coins or notes, they are sold
“as is” without our grading opinion, and may not be returned for any reason. Auctioneer shall not be
liable for any patent or latent defect or controversy pertaining to or arising from any encapsulated
collectible. In any such instance, purchaser’s remedy, if any, shall be solely against the service
certifying the collectible.g costs. This is from Heritage.

magikbilly · June 25, 2013 4:03PM

Speaking generally of these venues, there is an awful lot buried in those tiny circular sentences in some auctions terms that release them from everything imaginable and a few things that aren't. Very Kafkaesque.
Big houses, paintings to coins to anything. I posted about this quite a while back. Reading them fully could make one not wish to bid in some cases.
The opposing position is the always same for me, IMHO - education...knowledge of one form or another. I just peeked at some randomly chosen Terms online for things like coins, works or art, other memorabilia etc. Once you get past the initial pages about how to pay, it is rather one sided.

"...she likes a rigged game, you know what I mean, Doc?" - McMurphy, Keysey's Cuckoos Nest (film)

Best wishes,
Eric

Edit to add: Those photos certainly don't appear to represent things well - crack or color. I see a lot of near-black in their photo. I also note the lack of any meaningful description - just pop numbers etc. I see less and less descriptions, generally, and more and more Terms and "outs"...with autograph auctions I see most everything is "fine" condition and little else is said. Sight unseen streamlining is stripping the texture and nuance from collecting some things.

lcoopie · June 25, 2013 9:32PM

IMO their photo was misleading

bolivarshagnasty · June 25, 2013 9:52PM

Where is this return policy that your mentioning as it's always been my understanding at major auction houses you bid, you win, good or bad you own it

>>

This.
This has been a topic on the boards before. I will be surprised if Stef is able to return for a refund. We'll see how good her "sweet talking" skills are.

Befuddled as to spots on a toned proof

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