Fake PCGS Slabs from China, most dangerous ever seen
CaesarAvgvstvs
Posts: 16
I’m not sure if there is already a similar topic existing in this forum, but I think the issue is quite important;
Take a look here; http://www.aliexpress.com/item/PCGS-MS63-1885-CC-Morgan-coin/666997719.html
The situation seems to be quite serious, since the quality of this fake is obviously very high. Gold is of low quality, in spite of the slabs, but the silver coins -
Everything is exactly copied; silver content, weight, size...Actually I'm not even sure if the coin is cast (as it is written in the description) - looks coined for me.
The registry numbers are also matching. Means – comparing them on the website of PCGS will not help as well.
I’m not sure how trustable all the other information from this seller are, but you may see the feedback is from buyers in the US and Europe.
Btw. if you search for PCGS coins there – you will find many more of these fakes.
While older Chinese fakes were no danger for more or less experienced collectors - these ones looks very dangerous for me.
Just wonder if PCGS is making any efforts to prevent such an easy access to fakes obviously made with fraudulent intent?
Put such a slab on eBay and I'm quite sure - nobody will be able to say if it is genuine or fake unless he already bought the genuine one and double-checked it with PCGS before.
I know, it’s China I’m talking about, but on the other hand PCGS is also not just a local coin collector club, maybe some legal processes possible, even in China?
If there are no efforts at all, what's the sense of buying PCGS coins? At least for me the main reason is the certification of authenticity.
This certification seems now to be completely undermined… Or do you see any significant difference to the official slabs?
Any idea how to avoid fakes of this quality?
Take a look here; http://www.aliexpress.com/item/PCGS-MS63-1885-CC-Morgan-coin/666997719.html
The situation seems to be quite serious, since the quality of this fake is obviously very high. Gold is of low quality, in spite of the slabs, but the silver coins -
Everything is exactly copied; silver content, weight, size...Actually I'm not even sure if the coin is cast (as it is written in the description) - looks coined for me.
The registry numbers are also matching. Means – comparing them on the website of PCGS will not help as well.
I’m not sure how trustable all the other information from this seller are, but you may see the feedback is from buyers in the US and Europe.
Btw. if you search for PCGS coins there – you will find many more of these fakes.
While older Chinese fakes were no danger for more or less experienced collectors - these ones looks very dangerous for me.
Just wonder if PCGS is making any efforts to prevent such an easy access to fakes obviously made with fraudulent intent?
Put such a slab on eBay and I'm quite sure - nobody will be able to say if it is genuine or fake unless he already bought the genuine one and double-checked it with PCGS before.
I know, it’s China I’m talking about, but on the other hand PCGS is also not just a local coin collector club, maybe some legal processes possible, even in China?
If there are no efforts at all, what's the sense of buying PCGS coins? At least for me the main reason is the certification of authenticity.
This certification seems now to be completely undermined… Or do you see any significant difference to the official slabs?
Any idea how to avoid fakes of this quality?
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This has been of considerable concern to many for quite some time.
The bar has just been raised..... It sucks !!!!
Happy, humble, honored and proud recipient of the “You Suck” award 10/22/2014
<< <i>Well, despite the cert checking out if you shoot the fake with a bar code scanner it comes back fake. I've found this very useful, and you can shoot it right on the screen/monitor. >>
Really? Never tried it.
But why? I mean - faking a bar code is not that difficult, or is there any secret with the PCGS codes?
Anyway - have you tried it with the faked coin I gave a link to?
<< <i>It's scary out there. The only thing I can think of is making a blacklist of cert numbers when things like this come up that are being sold in bulk quantities. Obviously the one REAL version is going to end up needing to go in and upgrade to secure plus or something but what else can you do? >>
Well, maybe even prosecuting the manufacturer... At least claim to remove these offers from the sales page of aliexpress, alibaba.com and other portals.
I mean, if they can find and prosecute some copyright violators somewhere deep in Russia for example, why can't they do the same with these guys in China?
<< <i>Really? Never tried it.
But why? I mean - faking a bar code is not that difficult, or is there any secret with the PCGS codes?
Anyway - have you tried it with the faked coin I gave a link to? >>
Yup, and actually a similar coin from that same outfit (1895-O )was also spotted on ebay by a forum member as potentially fake and I shot it while it was listed, it came back as 75997878. The real coin as pictured on Heritage I believe scanned just fine.
<< <i>Any idea how to avoid fakes of this quality? >>
a quick study would reveal the coin and slab to be the junk that they are and not able to pass even the semi-trained eye of any numismatist, thankfully.
they only appear to be of high quality and would fool only the most novice of collectors in-hand. how to protect them? no way really. if they buy on their own and haven't been trained, they will probably be fooled. i've personally spoken to many collectors that have been. although, the coins that get them, are often raw and minimal to no effort was displayed on their part to verify their purchases as authentic, so in their collections the coins do sit.
link
someone said something about a a list of copied cert numbers? i have images of the holders for all the certs listed included the one in the OP
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<< <i>
<< <i>Really? Never tried it.
But why? I mean - faking a bar code is not that difficult, or is there any secret with the PCGS codes?
Anyway - have you tried it with the faked coin I gave a link to? >>
Yup, and actually that same coin was also spotted on ebay by a forum member as potentially fake and I shot it while it was listed, it came back as 75997878. The real coin as pictured on Heritage I believe scanned just fine. >>
Don't you have a link for? I would really like to check myself.
... you need a special scanner for, or is there any app in App-store for? (Newbie alarm!
Anyway - I'm sure for high priced genuine coins there are some ways to detect a fake. At least for such coins with a provenience.
But if you check the coins of less values, sometimes you have nothing more, but a value and a short description when you check their number.
Sure - the difference in price will not be that high. They sell it for about 50$ instead of 140$, and still a scammer can make a very good profit.
I mean - I'm now looking for a 1878 Dollar, any mint mark, just in a condition like ~MS/PR 62 to 66, I found some on eBay - in PCGS slab...how will I now if it is genuine or not?
By taking it out from the slab and making a radiocarbon dating?
Empty Nest Collection
<< <i>
<< <i>Any idea how to avoid fakes of this quality? >>
a quick study would reveal the coin and slab to be the junk that they are and not able to pass even the semi-trained eye of any numismatist, thankfully.
they only appear to be of high quality and would fool only the most novice of collectors in-hand. how to protect them? no way really. if they buy on their own and haven't been trained, they will probably be fooled. i've personally spoken to many collectors that have been. although, the coins that get them, are often raw and minimal to no effort was displayed on their part to verify their purchases as authentic, so in their collections the coins do sit.
. >>
Thanks
Now - I'm a newbie, at least speaking about coins in slabs.
Even better - now imagine we are talking about such a high quality fake but only of few hundreds dollar value, without links to Heritage or else. You see just the coin description when verifying the certificate, nothing more.
<< <i>Am I the only one that thinks the insert looks all wrong? I don't think I've ever seen a grade printed up so high before. >>
Are you sure?
The printing of the genuine slab looks the same for me; http://coins.ha.com/c/item.zx?hdnJumpToLot=1&saleNo=1129&lotNo=1133&x=0&y=0
<< <i>
<< <i>It's scary out there. The only thing I can think of is making a blacklist of cert numbers when things like this come up that are being sold in bulk quantities. Obviously the one REAL version is going to end up needing to go in and upgrade to secure plus or something but what else can you do? >>
Well, maybe even prosecuting the manufacturer... At least claim to remove these offers from the sales page of aliexpress, alibaba.com and other portals.
I mean, if they can find and prosecute some copyright violators somewhere deep in Russia for example, why can't they do the same with these guys in China? >>
Because the FBI is more interested in billions of dollars of intellectual property theft generated by fake DVD's in China, and, moreso, major technology theft.
Major players in our industry have been aware of the situation for several years, and taking what steps they can.
Any info on dates or denominations?
<< <i>
<< <i>Am I the only one that thinks the insert looks all wrong? I don't think I've ever seen a grade printed up so high before. >>
Are you sure?
The printing of the genuine slab looks the same for me; http://coins.ha.com/c/item.zx?hdnJumpToLot=1&saleNo=1129&lotNo=1133&x=0&y=0 >>
I guess you're right. Must be the angle.
Empty Nest Collection
<< <i>The genuine coin with that serial number was sold in a Heritage auction here:. They are clearly NOT the same coin. >>
Of course they are not!
I'm rather speaking of fakes of coins of less value, like this one for example;
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Nicholas-II-Romanov-Rouble-1913-BC-KM-Y70-MS64-PCGS/762062235.html
I doubt the information given on the PCGS website is enough to decide whether the coin is the same or not.
<< <i>They are clearly NOT the same coin. >>
+1. the devil is in the details.
the most difficult imo will be the authentic coins in counterfeit holders assigned a higher grade than the coin actually is.
CaesarAvgvstvs - learn to use the archives here. the basic search and the advanced search. there is a ton of info on detecting counterfeits here as well as virtually every other subject on numismatics.
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that they are very easy to spot. Poor photos from odd angles make them appear more deceptive than they really are.
But anything can be faked..would you buy your cancer drugs from a seller in China just because an almost perfect fake plastic container
and label were shown? Buy from an authorized PCGS member-dealer.
Just a personal note...my 12 year old Malibu expired Friday (engine camshaft broke). A well meaning member of
my local coin club has been pestering me all weekend about a friend of a friend who sells cars on Craigslist. He buys cars
from the families of old people who are so senile they have bought a brand new car, only to be soon placed in a nursing home, so
the family needs to sell the cars for fast cash...in this case a 2012 Nissan Altima with 6200 miles for $9000 (Bluebook is $14,000)
I finally told my coin club buddy "Tell ya what. Buy the $39.95 Carfax report and if it's clean, I will buy that car and give YOU a $250
finders fee.
Flood salvage
<< <i>
<< <i>They are clearly NOT the same coin. >>
+1. the devil is in the details.
the most difficult imo will be the authentic coins in counterfeit holders assigned a higher grade than the coin actually is.
CaesarAvgvstvs - learn to use the archives here. the basic search and the advanced search. there is a ton of info on detecting counterfeits here as well as virtually every other subject on numismatics.
. >>
and these details are what I would like to know using the fakes I gave the links to.
It's really a difference between buying a coin in a shop where you can make any test you like with it, and buying it online.
Now here in Germany I'm mostly limited to the online purchase of the US coins. That's why I'd like to know how you would detect a fake of this quality just having the pics of it (an the slab number of course)
Regarding the search: whatever I tried to search for, I received only this one message; "The page you were accessing requires variables to be passed to it.
Error Code: 100 " - in spite of every necessary field being filled in.
the answers you seek about detecting counterfeits are already in this thread. next, is you putting in the leg work and study and it will come with time and practice and nothing less. slowly re-read the thread, use some creativity and you'll be amazed what you can extract.
the basic and advanced search functions are browser specific and version specific.
IE 9 is what i used for the advanced search and ff 7.0.1 is what i use on a daily basis and works with the basic search.
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<< <i>
sure, in this case you have a good picture of the genuine coin and slab to compare, but what's the way if you do not have any official pictures?
p.s - just bookmarked your topic with the cert.numbers used for fakes
<< <i>This looks identical to what has been out there for 4 years. If you see one in hand both the slab and the coin look so obviously wrong
that they are very easy to spot. Poor photos from odd angles make them appear more deceptive than they really are.
But anything can be faked..would you buy your cancer drugs from a seller in China just because an almost perfect fake plastic container
and label were shown? Buy from an authorized PCGS member-dealer. >>
maybe - the problem is, even though I live near Cologne, means definitely not in the back of beyond, most possible purchases are online, since the local dealers here either have no US coins at all, have them without any slab or are located in a driving distance of 150+ miles.
Further - even dealers listed as PCGS members (like Emporium Hamburg) mostly sell such coins without any slab, still the price is higher than for the same coin in a holder in the US.
<< <i>p.s - just bookmarked your topic with the cert.numbers used for fakes
this may be of interest to you as well.
my main piece of advice, be very cautious buying coins that you are not familiar with. i've spoken with people that have lost and nearly lost a good amount of money from buying bad coins. altered, counterfeit, overgraded, etc
don't know about anyone else but i'm still eagerly awaiting mr. faraone's dvd on counterfeit detection.
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Is that verdigris around her feet?
This should be of interest:
Welcome to my shop!I only sell replica coins for collections, none of the coins I sell are original. Please don't buy them as the original coins. I sell these copied coins only want to make your collections more perfect. About shipping: It takes about 20 to 30 days to carry to American, and 25 to 35 days to European and other countries. Hope you could wait for your items patiently. I will mail the coins to you in 10 business days after pay them, In order to receive them as soon as possible, please pay them as quickly as possible. Thank you, by the way you could contact me if you need EMS, Best wishes! Thanks!
Scroll to bottom
<< <i>From the same seller: $1,540 with additional 5% off!!!
Yeah, I know- that's why I wrote in the very beginning here- Gold is of low quality
And btw. till now I saw only few hints how to distinguish the fakes of this quality from genuine, just not expensive coins...but statements, that they look "so wrong".
Now- if I say something like this to someone showing me a fake of an ancient coin, I can usually also describe what exactly is so wrong about it for me.
If the coin looks cast, the emperor portrait looks too crude for this type, if the patina looks fake etc.
Could you maybe do the same for the coins I showed? Forget about the year+mintmark combination, these chinese friends can paint you any of it since - "own factory, accept custom", just imagine it's a 1878-S
Just anticipating - not possible. After all it is just a question of the faking technology. Make it coining, not casting, use silver of same quality like the genuine coins, make copies of authentic punches instead of imitating them, imitate wear just with other coins ect. - I doubt anyone will be able to differ such a fake from a genuine coin.
If you think I'm wrong - I would really appreciate an explanation (even by PN if you do not want to reveal your secrets to the Chinese scammer certainly monitoring this forum
<< <i>That coin doesn't look like a 65 to me.....lots of rub from that image.
Is that verdigris around her feet?
This should be of interest:
Welcome to my shop!I only sell replica coins for collections, none of the coins I sell are original. Please don't buy them as the original coins. I sell these copied coins only want to make your collections more perfect. About shipping: It takes about 20 to 30 days to carry to American, and 25 to 35 days to European and other countries. Hope you could wait for your items patiently. I will mail the coins to you in 10 business days after pay them, In order to receive them as soon as possible, please pay them as quickly as possible. Thank you, by the way you could contact me if you need EMS, Best wishes! Thanks!
Scroll to bottom >>
Don't waste your time with the gold fakes- they are so bad, that one glance on a genuine coin will show them being fakes.
Don't know why- actually I would expect the opposite- higher value of the material = higher quality of the fake..well, it is not.
This is the reason why I wrote about the silver fakes only here.
<< <i>
a quick study would reveal the coin and slab to be the junk that they are and not able to pass even the semi-trained eye of any numismatist, thankfully. >>
Back in 2010, someone posted (maybe across the street) a camera phone photo of a tray of slabbed fake dollars in fake
NGC slabs -- oh, woe! Numismatics is doomed! How can we ever protect ourselves against such perfect fakes???
I edited the photo to make it appear to be a tray of RAW coins...and they suddenly don't appear nearly
as dangerous.
<< <i>I'm assuming no one here would be fooled by the $20 Saint posted. What I fear the most is, these counterfeiters will continue to hone their craft to the point no one will know which is fake and which is genuine. It's a matter of time before they get the insert, slab, striking pressure, weight, PM content and design elements correct. I always here fakes have been around for decades, but to this degree of regularity? >>
This is exactly what I'm so worried about. Maybe it's just a lack of experience, but I wouldn't be that sure in deciding if the bunch of dollars posted just above are all fake or not. Especially not using these small pics.
That's why I asked if someone could explain their certainity using the bigger pics of the fake morgans from the aliexpress site... Unfortunately nobody did