Has this Morgan been cleaned?

jphendren · January 17, 2013 12:55AM

Hello,

I picked up this 1893 CC Morgan a few days ago, I specifically asked the dealer if the coin was genuine, and if it had been cleaned. He assured me it was genuine and the surfaces were original. After getting the coin home and examining it in the sunlight with a 5X loupe, I believe that this coin has been cleaned. I'm not sure if you can tell from the images, but hopefully you can. I believe that the grade is accurate, it does appear to be a solid VF, possibly 25? But the coin is too clean for a circulated piece. In the short time I've been back into this, I've improved my grading skills on Morgans, but still have a hard time determining original surfaces. The coin is very clean looking, and does have some very fine lines on both obverse and reverse. The bad part is that they run parallel to each other, not in random directions. I also believe that it is the VAM 2 variety with the leaning right mintmark.

lcoopie · January 17, 2013 1:01AM

I would say yes

AUandAG · January 17, 2013 1:09AM

And so would I.

bob

DoubleEagle59 · January 17, 2013 1:09AM

Dipped...absolutely yes.

Cleaned...I'm not positive but am leaning toward 'yes'.

jphendren · January 17, 2013 1:17AM

Alright, you just confirmed what I had a sinking feeling I knew. I guess I'll try and see if they will buy it back, since they did misrepresent it.

guitarwes · January 17, 2013 1:21AM

<< <i>I would say yes >>

Me three.

BryceM · January 17, 2013 1:22AM

Hairlines can be rather common on circulated pieces, but this one looks to have been dipped. It's pretty dull, bland, blah.

I borrowed these photos from CoinFacts. To me they have depth and character. The first is an XF40, the second a VF30. Hope this helps:

BryceM · January 17, 2013 1:28AM

BTW, if you aren't certain of your grading abilities, I'd recommend sticking with certified coins (PCGS or NGC) if you're spending much over $100 or so. If a $500 coin isn't already graded and in a holder, there's most often a reason. There are exceptions of course. You also don't need a 5X loupe to see that this one has problems. To me, it just isn't that interesting or "crusty". It's dipped out, cleaned, and dull. You should be able to see that from 5 feet away.

jphendren · January 17, 2013 1:33AM

Basically, no TPG service would grade it, correct? Education costs, and I may have just bought a lesson. The shop I bought it from is the largest in Las Vegas, they have been here for decades. I assumed that they were honest. There are no other good coin shops here that I know of. They don't have many certified Morgans, just really high end stuff like 1893-S, and MS67 stuff. 90% of their stock is raw. I hate ordering coins over the internet, but unless I want to keep getting bit, I guess that is what I will have to do in order to get certified pieces. Even in my novice state, this coin seemed too clean, I guess I should have trusted my instincts.

lcoopie · January 17, 2013 1:34AM

great advise BryceM

steveben · January 17, 2013 1:35AM

yes

johnny9434 · January 17, 2013 1:38AM

yes

BryceM · January 17, 2013 1:43AM

You have many, many options in Las Vegas when it comes to buying Morgans. Compared to just about everything else, these are EASY to find. Every couple of months our host (PCGS) holds a members-only show in Vegas. It's usually located somewhere along the strip. Membership in PCGS isn't expensive, especially when compared to making a few bad decisions about coins. Don Rinkor and Larry Shapiro have loads of certified Morgans and they're usually there. There will be plenty of other dealers with Morgans too and that's just one show out of many. Vegas isn't all that far from a tremendous number of shows in Central and SoCal. Going to one is a great way to spend a free Saturday. You'll meet lots of people and get to see hundreds and hundreds of certified and raw Morgans.

Also, be slightly careful about calling a dealer dishonest. He guarantees the coin to be authentic, no? When it comes to grading, understand that ALL grading is subjective and that different opinions carry different weight. I assume that the two of you could both see the coin, both inspect the coin, and both form an opinion about the coin. You were both satisfied with the transaction at the time of sale. The supposed value of a certified coin is an unbiased opinion about quality given by a disinterested third party. Nothing is perfect, but buying certified sure beats playing the raw coin lottery. 9 out of 10 times you'll be burned unless you really know what you're talking about.

originalisbest · January 17, 2013 1:52AM

The trick, with the coin you bought, is it might well be able to make it into a top-tier PCGS or NGC holder, despite its flaws, as it's not "that bad" - but nor is it great, and as such, not a good buy. Sticking to PCGS and NGC will help you avoid a lot of dreck, but it won't always guarantee you a superb coin that's 100% original and "perfect" for the grade either. Your eye for grading and ideal appearance will develop over time -- don't beat yourself up too badly, and see if you can (politely) return/exchange the coin for a refund, or perhaps another something at that shop that interests you. Good luck!

AUandAG · January 17, 2013 1:55AM

Join the Collectors Club and come to the Bellagio next week. It's free for members and
it's a small venue with really nice dealers and if you go for breakfast or lunch that's free
too. Huge advantage for those of us that live here in Vegas. Sahara will most likely refund, I
would suspect. Perhaps they would submit it to PCGS for you and call you when it comes
back? Might ask them.
I think it is cleaned but I've seen pocket carried pieces that do look similar. Without having
it in hand I'll stand by the cleaned comment I made above.

bob

I do agree with the if it's not in a holder there is a reason. Sahara does get their raw coins
graded: As evidenced here

BustCuds · January 17, 2013 2:43AM

Cleaned...and the lines all go in the same direction

291fifth · January 17, 2013 2:46AM

My opinion, Yes.

Probably dipped.

3sidesofsilver · January 17, 2013 3:21AM

All bits of very good advice offered here. Patience is required, I have found, while searching for a 93-CC. I am looking for one that is PCGS graded VF20-35. The few I have found in PCGS holders are not stellar coins; most are C coins. That B or even A coin with great eye appeal and original surfaces will come along one day. How do I get one of those CoinFacts coins???

jphendren · January 17, 2013 3:37AM

UPDATE:

I took the coin back to the shop, their head numismatist looked at it felt the coin would pass muster at PCGS. We agreed to send it to PCGS for grading. I left and later got a phone call from them that up removing the coin from holder, they now agree that it has been cleaned, probably a long time ago. So I will be getting a full refund. Seems fair to me. So I guess I'm back on the hunt for another VF 1893 CC, PCGS certified this time.

"Also, be slightly careful about calling a dealer dishonest."

I would not do that, I feel the shop believed that the coin was solid. Everybody makes mistakes.

LindeDad · January 17, 2013 3:50AM

Flatten those staples too, many coins have been ruined by not taking that small step.

telephoto1 · January 17, 2013 3:56AM

To their credit, they refunded you and didn't give you static...but, they needed to take it out of the holder before they could finally figure out it was cleaned? Really?
Perhaps you should hunt for another dealer as well as another coin.

AUandAG · January 17, 2013 4:02AM

Ended well. At least for you.

Now what day will you be going to the show? I'll be there on Thursday if you want to meet up.

Wife and I are going.

bob

jphendren · January 17, 2013 4:05AM

Bob,

Haha, I'm not a PCGS member, that is required correct?

Jared

messydesk · January 17, 2013 4:13AM

If you say all the hairlines are parallel, then it's cleaned. I don't necessarily see it from the picture, as the harsh sunlight can make some hairlines stand out much more than others.

BryceM · January 17, 2013 4:36AM

If I remember correctly, you can sign up to become a PCGS member at the registration desk. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong. Silver level is $49 a year. Gold is $129 and it comes with 4 "free" coin submissions. Platinum and diamond give you additional benefits and come with 8 "free" submissions per year. Compared to what it is possible to lose from a couple of buying mistakes, this is a very good value.

I really encourage you to go to the show. These PCGS shows are fantastic with people in attendance from all over the US. They're also relatively low-key and should allow you ample opportunity to see, learn, and meet many wonderful people. Bob (AUandAG) is a great guy and knows more about Morgans than 99.99% of earth's population.

Kudos to the dealer for not giving you a hard time about returning the coin. Get yourself edumacated about Morgans and a shop like that can be a great place to watch for coins. I'd kill to have any sort of coin shop around where I live.

AUandAG · January 17, 2013 4:43AM

Bryce is correct. At the door or just do in online here: Join the PCGS club

bob

JJM · January 17, 2013 8:49AM

ouch, yes..................

JJM · January 17, 2013 8:53AM

to add:, i did a small local coin show today and
help out a buddy at his table, and several brutal, harsh
93 CCs came up to be sold, it was bad...........bad............sad..............

Has this Morgan been cleaned?

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