HOF: Craig Biggio vs. Dale Murphy
Sheamaster
Posts: 542 ✭✭✭
Biggio did not get in, but got 68% as a first-timer, which likely indicates that he will make it someday. In my opinion, Murphy belongs in before Biggio. Murphy won back-to-back MVP awards! Biggio never finished higher than 4th in MVP voting. I know there are a lot of statistics, etc. to support or reject either side, but to me this stands out. I am in no way a HOF aficionado, but it seems like Murphy gets the short-end of the stick. Not to take anything away from Biggio as he was a great player, but Murphy was a stud in the 80's. Just my 2 cents. OK I feel better.
0
Comments
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
My Podcast - Now FEATURED on iTunes
Dodgers collection scans | Brett Butler registry | 1978 Dodgers - straight 9s, homie
Biggi,o I dont know his story but his stats are good. In the side by side comparison, Murphy had more areas of league leading seasons than Biggio, but he was also in a time when 40 HR was an amazing year. Biggio played in a time when 60 is only pretty good. Murphy led the league in homers twice, without eclipsing 40 homers, but the year he hit 44, was the year I think Dawson had 49. Needless to say, looking at them, they are very close as far as career comparisons. Biggio may
Other Murphy highlights are:
7× All-Star selection (1980, 1982, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1987)
5× Gold Glove Award winner (1982, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1986)
4× Silver Slugger Award winner (1982, 1983, 1984, 1985)
2× NL MVP (1982, 1983)
1988 Roberto Clemente Award
1985 Lou Gehrig Memorial Award
Atlanta Braves #3 retired
Biggio highlights:
7× All-Star (1991, 1992, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998)
4× Gold Glove Award winner (1994, 1995, 1996, 1997)
5× Silver Slugger Award winner (1989, 1994, 1995, 1997, 1998)
2007 Roberto Clemente Award
2005 Hutch Award
1997 Branch Rickey Award
Houston Astros #7 retired
Neither
.265 career batting average (highest was .302), career .469 slugger (whoopy), only 1 time in 18 seasons did he hit more than 37 HRs, only 5 - 100+ RBI seasons (Mantle had 4, so...), averaged only 70 RBI a season over career, was a master at the strikeout (11X 100+), only 1X over 93 walks, 889 hits short of 3,000 in 18 seasons, hit more than 27 doubles only 4X, 7X All Star in 18 seasons
= NOT a HOFer!
Biggio
60 more hits than 3,000 in 20 years, 4X .300 batter in 20 years (whoopy), 414 SBs for a guy who played catcher for some of career, 7X All Star in 20 seasons (egh), 668 doubles (bigtime since he was a basestealer and they often dog it and stop at first on purpose in nonmeaningful ABs, so they can pad SB stats), he is the only player to ever have 50+ SBs and 50+ 2Bs in same season (see last note), had a career slugging average only .036 less than Murphy, 2nd all time in getting hit by the pitch and IMO he cheated on 98% of them by leaning in with body armor so IS a cheater and should be in the same class as Bonds, Clemens, Rose, Cobb, Perry, JJackson, McGwire, Sosa, Yount, Speaker, etc.
= borderline HOFer, that should make it in in 5 years or more (never 1st ballot)
Delgado and McGriff > Biggio > Murphy > Santo > Mazeroski
Murphy was 2nd most feared hitter in NL, in that tiny bandbox Atlanta stadium, maybe for 1-3 seasons (ie '83, '84, '87)
some of you guys need to wake up and actually read a stat, not just try for promote some Mormon into the HOF, so you can have one to rep your faith
Stats are worthless anyway for so many reasons of the years:
Segregation
Military Service
Lowering of the Mound
Bringing all fences in
Steriods/HGH
Over Expansion
Technology of bat,ball, etc
All this leads to the use of human interpretation for things like the hall of fame (et al.) and the general decline of baseball tradition.
I believe that in this post-steroid era MLB should start over and try to play less games in a more meaningful way.
Its a matter of time before baseball can't pay their players due to high salaries and lack of interest.
So, to sum up I think the impact you made on the game is way more important than stats alone.
Last point I would like to know the average age of the voters....
Topps White Out (silver) letters Alex Gordon
80 Topps Greg Pryor “No Name"
90 ProSet Dexter Manley error
90 Topps Jeff King Yellow back
1958 Topps Pancho Herrera (no“a”)
81 Topps Art Howe (black smear above hat)
91 D A. Hawkins BC-12 “Pitcher”
9X 100+ RBI in 17 years, .280 career average, 11/12 seasons in a row hit 30+ HRs, 12X .500 slug% (10 in row), 11X 30+ doubles, and the biggest stat .546 career slug%
McGriff
10X 30+ HRs with 7 short of 500, .284 career average, 8X 100+ RBI, .509 career slug%, etc.
and Juan Gonzalez (the players who has that second group of stats in the 2nd post above) is not even close to these 2
Gonzales prob is he completely sucked at the end of career (like Murphy), and retired at 34, not to mention the small ball park and 'roids link
<< <i>Biggio will get in on his 3,000 hits. If he had 2866, he'd be signing for 25 bucks like Harold Baines >>
great analysis, i would say that baines, during his peak was far better/ahead of biggio.
For what it is worth, when I watched Murphy, I thought he was a HoFer, just as I thought Don Mattingly, Keith Hernandez and Steve Garvey were. Time gives perspective.
ebay id Duffs_Dugout
My Ebay Auctions
<< <i>most feared hitter in 80s was Schmidt, Canseco, McGwire, etc. Not Murphy and his .469 slug%, and nearly 1/2 million strikeouts!
Murphy was 2nd most feared hitter in NL, in that tiny bandbox Atlanta stadium, maybe for 1-3 seasons (ie '83, '84, '87)
some of you guys need to wake up and actually read a stat, not just try for promote some Mormon into the HOF, so you can have one to rep your faith >>
I would say in the early 80's Schmidt and Murphy were the most feared. Canseco and Mc were feared in the late 80's and by then the game had really changed.
I am not a Murph fan and certainly not Mormon but I would say Murphy was very feared. As a Dodger fan, in the early 80's, the Braves were tough and it was mainly because of him.
Also, I think the idea of comparing him to Craig Biggio, due to different eras of the game, is really difficult.
<< <i>Murphy
.265 career batting average (highest was .302), career .469 slugger (whoopy), only 1 time in 18 seasons did he hit more than 37 HRs, only 5 - 100+ RBI seasons (Mantle had 4, so...), averaged only 70 RBI a season over career, was a master at the strikeout (11X 100+), only 1X over 93 walks, 889 hits short of 3,000 in 18 seasons, hit more than 27 doubles only 4X, 7X All Star in 18 seasons
= NOT a HOFer!
>>
Those are some pretty arbitrary cutoff points for counting stats... only once did he have more than 37 home runs...he hit 36 or 37 four years in a row, with 2 MVPs. I am not a supporter of Murphy in the HoF, but maybe use a little less bias in your reasoning next time.
Eddie Murray never hit more than 33 HR in a season, only once did he have more than 87 BB, never had more than 186 hits, slugged a measly .476, he grounded into 315 double plays (6th all time), only 8X All Star in 21 seasons, never won an MVP.
<< <i>
some of you guys need to wake up and actually read a stat, not just try for promote some Mormon into the HOF, so you can have one to rep your faith >>
I would think that most Dale Murphy supporters are Braves fans, not Mormons. I am neither. I am assuming you were trying to be flip.
Also, the second stat line is Andruw Jones, not Juan Gonzalez.
Fulton County was not a band box but benefitted from high altitude. The ball caried very nicely there as can be attested by Hank Aaron, Daryl Evans, Davey Johnson, etc. etc.
FAME - n - The condition of being known or talked about by many people, esp. on account of notable achievements.
People always say "this isn't the Hall of Very Good", but technically it's not the "Hall of Great" either. It's the Hall of FAME. By this definition, people in the Hall should be well known because of their on field achievements. Consider the Hollywood Walk of Fame. James Dean & Marilyn Monroe had very short careers, but were huge stars during that time and are now enshrined. So Roger Maris, Dale Murphy, and Don Mattingly... Welcome to the Hall of Fame!!!
Just playing a little devil's advocate here...
I am 2 time NL MVP Dale Murphy
<< <i>Let's look at it a different way...
FAME - n - The condition of being known or talked about by many people, esp. on account of notable achievements.
People always say "this isn't the Hall of Very Good", but technically it's not the "Hall of Great" either. It's the Hall of FAME. By this definition, people in the Hall should be well known because of their on field achievements. Consider the Hollywood Walk of Fame. James Dean & Marilyn Monroe had very short careers, but were huge stars during that time and are now enshrined. So Roger Maris, Dale Murphy, and Don Mattingly... Welcome to the Hall of Fame!!!
Just playing a little devil's advocate here... >>
Comparing the Hollywood Walk of Fame is not really a good example either. Just because James Dean and Marilyn Monroe are there, there are thousands of unknowns. I consider myself a movie buff and and have walked among the stars and I have seen a few hundred "who-the-hell-is-that" stars in my path. Many are producers, studio execs, etc. Many are old time radio stars and even actors and actresses that I am unfamiliar with. At the same token, I dont think baseball players get the same press the way Hollywood folks do. I dont think Lindsay Lohan deserves a star, however, most people know of her. Likewise, someone like Stanley Kubrick, an amazing director, yet many people never heard of him, yet deserves a star (which he most likely has). So, to play devil's advocate back at ya, the Hollywood Walk of Fame is not an equivalent barometer. Why people get stars is due to their work in Hollywood, not simply based on fame. If that is the case, we should expect to see Kim Kardashian and Paris Hilton received star treatment on the Walk. And if that is the case, we might as well induct Billy Ripken for his fame-making 1989 Fleer card, which, at the time, was probably more famous than anything anyone was doing on the field.
Actually, the above probably helped Biggio more than anything. Many writers probably use comparisons with other balloted players. With Biggio not directly linked to steroids like the others, he should have been viewed more favorably this year. Wait unitl next year when his numbers are compared to Frank Thomas' and Maddux hits the ballot also. See how many of those 68%+ think he deserves the same recognition of those 2.
would consider electing Murphy to the Hall.