HOF: Craig Biggio vs. Dale Murphy

Sheamaster

Biggio did not get in, but got 68% as a first-timer, which likely indicates that he will make it someday. In my opinion, Murphy belongs in before Biggio. Murphy won back-to-back MVP awards! Biggio never finished higher than 4th in MVP voting. I know there are a lot of statistics, etc. to support or reject either side, but to me this stands out. I am in no way a HOF aficionado, but it seems like Murphy gets the short-end of the stick. Not to take anything away from Biggio as he was a great player, but Murphy was a stud in the 80's. Just my 2 cents. OK I feel better.

Juggs

The thing Biggio has going for him is the 3000 hits. Murphy was a very good player, but not Hall worthy, IMO. If Murphy gets in, Bagwell should've been first ballot.

grote15

Bottom line is Murphy didn't put up the numbers for a long enough period. Same boat as Mattingly.

VitoCo1972

neither one of those stat-lines are HOF worthy.

LodiBrewFan

Did those bottom stats come with 2 MVPs, 5 Golden Gloves, 7 All Star Games, and renowned 'Most fear hitter in the eighties'?

TNP777

Murphy will never get in, and I'm inclined to agree with that. He's got nice hardware, but I don't think of him being in the same echelon with his contemporaries of the age. Saying that, I'd take Murphy every day of the week and twice on Sunday over a meathead like Andruw Jones.

mygotta

I too have debates about Murphy in the Hall. I always wondered if he hit 2 more home runs to get to that 400 milestone it might reflect his career that much better. But Murphy was a real player in the classic sense. He loved the game, but off the field he was a straight shooter as well.

Biggi,o I dont know his story but his stats are good. In the side by side comparison, Murphy had more areas of league leading seasons than Biggio, but he was also in a time when 40 HR was an amazing year. Biggio played in a time when 60 is only pretty good. Murphy led the league in homers twice, without eclipsing 40 homers, but the year he hit 44, was the year I think Dawson had 49. Needless to say, looking at them, they are very close as far as career comparisons. Biggio may

Other Murphy highlights are:

7× All-Star selection (1980, 1982, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1987)
5× Gold Glove Award winner (1982, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1986)
4× Silver Slugger Award winner (1982, 1983, 1984, 1985)
2× NL MVP (1982, 1983)
1988 Roberto Clemente Award
1985 Lou Gehrig Memorial Award
Atlanta Braves #3 retired

Biggio highlights:

7× All-Star (1991, 1992, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998)
4× Gold Glove Award winner (1994, 1995, 1996, 1997)
5× Silver Slugger Award winner (1989, 1994, 1995, 1997, 1998)
2007 Roberto Clemente Award
2005 Hutch Award
1997 Branch Rickey Award
Houston Astros #7 retired

EchoCanyon

Biggio will get in on his 3,000 hits. If he had 2866, he'd be signing for 25 bucks like Harold Baines

epatmythes

I'll just address my response to the thread title... "HOF: Craig Biggio vs. Dale Murphy"

Neither

fkw

Murphy
.265 career batting average (highest was .302), career .469 slugger (whoopy), only 1 time in 18 seasons did he hit more than 37 HRs, only 5 - 100+ RBI seasons (Mantle had 4, so...), averaged only 70 RBI a season over career, was a master at the strikeout (11X 100+), only 1X over 93 walks, 889 hits short of 3,000 in 18 seasons, hit more than 27 doubles only 4X, 7X All Star in 18 seasons
= NOT a HOFer!

Biggio
60 more hits than 3,000 in 20 years, 4X .300 batter in 20 years (whoopy), 414 SBs for a guy who played catcher for some of career, 7X All Star in 20 seasons (egh), 668 doubles (bigtime since he was a basestealer and they often dog it and stop at first on purpose in nonmeaningful ABs, so they can pad SB stats), he is the only player to ever have 50+ SBs and 50+ 2Bs in same season (see last note), had a career slugging average only .036 less than Murphy, 2nd all time in getting hit by the pitch and IMO he cheated on 98% of them by leaning in with body armor so IS a cheater and should be in the same class as Bonds, Clemens, Rose, Cobb, Perry, JJackson, McGwire, Sosa, Yount, Speaker, etc. ie 'roids/liftingweightstoomuch, corked bats, scuffed ball, thrown games, etc.
= borderline HOFer, that should make it in in 5 years or more (never 1st ballot)

Delgado and McGriff > Biggio > Murphy > Santo > Mazeroski

fkw

most feared hitter in 80s was Schmidt, Canseco, McGwire, etc. Not Murphy and his .469 slug%, and nearly 1/2 million strikeouts!
Murphy was 2nd most feared hitter in NL, in that tiny bandbox Atlanta stadium, maybe for 1-3 seasons (ie '83, '84, '87)

some of you guys need to wake up and actually read a stat, not just try for promote some Mormon into the HOF, so you can have one to rep your faith

richtree

I honestly believe that baseball needs to change the number of games in a season to about 120-140

Stats are worthless anyway for so many reasons of the years:

Segregation

Military Service

Lowering of the Mound

Bringing all fences in

Steriods/HGH

Over Expansion

Technology of bat,ball, etc


All this leads to the use of human interpretation for things like the hall of fame (et al.) and the general decline of baseball tradition.

I believe that in this post-steroid era MLB should start over and try to play less games in a more meaningful way.

Its a matter of time before baseball can't pay their players due to high salaries and lack of interest.

So, to sum up I think the impact you made on the game is way more important than stats alone.

Last point I would like to know the average age of the voters....

fkw

Delgado
9X 100+ RBI in 17 years, .280 career average, 11/12 seasons in a row hit 30+ HRs, 12X .500 slug% (10 in row), 11X 30+ doubles, and the biggest stat .546 career slug%

McGriff
10X 30+ HRs with 7 short of 500, .284 career average, 8X 100+ RBI, .509 career slug%, etc.

and Juan Gonzalez (the players who has that second group of stats in the 2nd post above) is not even close to these 2
Gonzales prob is he completely sucked at the end of career (like Murphy), and retired at 34, not to mention the small ball park and 'roids link

olb31

<< <i>Biggio will get in on his 3,000 hits. If he had 2866, he'd be signing for 25 bucks like Harold Baines >>



great analysis, i would say that baines, during his peak was far better/ahead of biggio.

pclpads

Biggio got totally screwed by having his first year of eligibility coinciding with that of Bonds, Clemens and Sosa. If those three weren't on the ballot, Biggio would have been elected. 3,000 hits, like 300 wins and 500 dingers used to guarantee enshirement.

MiniDuff

My problem with this analysis is that we are so numb to and blinded by counting stats that we are comparing a power hitting outfielder to a catcher/second baseman. Compare Biggio in context to other middle infielders and he jumps off the page.

For what it is worth, when I watched Murphy, I thought he was a HoFer, just as I thought Don Mattingly, Keith Hernandez and Steve Garvey were. Time gives perspective.

larryallen73

<< <i>most feared hitter in 80s was Schmidt, Canseco, McGwire, etc. Not Murphy and his .469 slug%, and nearly 1/2 million strikeouts!
Murphy was 2nd most feared hitter in NL, in that tiny bandbox Atlanta stadium, maybe for 1-3 seasons (ie '83, '84, '87)

some of you guys need to wake up and actually read a stat, not just try for promote some Mormon into the HOF, so you can have one to rep your faith >>



I would say in the early 80's Schmidt and Murphy were the most feared. Canseco and Mc were feared in the late 80's and by then the game had really changed.

I am not a Murph fan and certainly not Mormon but I would say Murphy was very feared. As a Dodger fan, in the early 80's, the Braves were tough and it was mainly because of him.

Also, I think the idea of comparing him to Craig Biggio, due to different eras of the game, is really difficult.

jwgators

<< <i>Murphy
.265 career batting average (highest was .302), career .469 slugger (whoopy), only 1 time in 18 seasons did he hit more than 37 HRs, only 5 - 100+ RBI seasons (Mantle had 4, so...), averaged only 70 RBI a season over career, was a master at the strikeout (11X 100+), only 1X over 93 walks, 889 hits short of 3,000 in 18 seasons, hit more than 27 doubles only 4X, 7X All Star in 18 seasons
= NOT a HOFer!
>>



Those are some pretty arbitrary cutoff points for counting stats... only once did he have more than 37 home runs...he hit 36 or 37 four years in a row, with 2 MVPs. I am not a supporter of Murphy in the HoF, but maybe use a little less bias in your reasoning next time.

Eddie Murray never hit more than 33 HR in a season, only once did he have more than 87 BB, never had more than 186 hits, slugged a measly .476, he grounded into 315 double plays (6th all time), only 8X All Star in 21 seasons, never won an MVP.

georgebailey2

<< <i>
some of you guys need to wake up and actually read a stat, not just try for promote some Mormon into the HOF, so you can have one to rep your faith >>




I would think that most Dale Murphy supporters are Braves fans, not Mormons. I am neither. I am assuming you were trying to be flip.

Also, the second stat line is Andruw Jones, not Juan Gonzalez.

Fulton County was not a band box but benefitted from high altitude. The ball caried very nicely there as can be attested by Hank Aaron, Daryl Evans, Davey Johnson, etc. etc.

scmavl

Let's look at it a different way...

FAME - n - The condition of being known or talked about by many people, esp. on account of notable achievements.

People always say "this isn't the Hall of Very Good", but technically it's not the "Hall of Great" either. It's the Hall of FAME. By this definition, people in the Hall should be well known because of their on field achievements. Consider the Hollywood Walk of Fame. James Dean & Marilyn Monroe had very short careers, but were huge stars during that time and are now enshrined. So Roger Maris, Dale Murphy, and Don Mattingly... Welcome to the Hall of Fame!!!

Just playing a little devil's advocate here...

FirstBeard

Sorry if this is covering old ground, but a few weeks ago, Mr. Murphy did a very cool AMA (ask me anything) over at Reddit (another message board - hope this isnt against the rules here, if so, please delete)

I am 2 time NL MVP Dale Murphy

mygotta

<< <i>Let's look at it a different way...

FAME - n - The condition of being known or talked about by many people, esp. on account of notable achievements.

People always say "this isn't the Hall of Very Good", but technically it's not the "Hall of Great" either. It's the Hall of FAME. By this definition, people in the Hall should be well known because of their on field achievements. Consider the Hollywood Walk of Fame. James Dean & Marilyn Monroe had very short careers, but were huge stars during that time and are now enshrined. So Roger Maris, Dale Murphy, and Don Mattingly... Welcome to the Hall of Fame!!!

Just playing a little devil's advocate here... >>



Comparing the Hollywood Walk of Fame is not really a good example either. Just because James Dean and Marilyn Monroe are there, there are thousands of unknowns. I consider myself a movie buff and and have walked among the stars and I have seen a few hundred "who-the-hell-is-that" stars in my path. Many are producers, studio execs, etc. Many are old time radio stars and even actors and actresses that I am unfamiliar with. At the same token, I dont think baseball players get the same press the way Hollywood folks do. I dont think Lindsay Lohan deserves a star, however, most people know of her. Likewise, someone like Stanley Kubrick, an amazing director, yet many people never heard of him, yet deserves a star (which he most likely has). So, to play devil's advocate back at ya, the Hollywood Walk of Fame is not an equivalent barometer. Why people get stars is due to their work in Hollywood, not simply based on fame. If that is the case, we should expect to see Kim Kardashian and Paris Hilton received star treatment on the Walk. And if that is the case, we might as well induct Billy Ripken for his fame-making 1989 Fleer card, which, at the time, was probably more famous than anything anyone was doing on the field.

lightningboy

Biggio got totally screwed by having his first year of eligibility coinciding with that of Bonds, Clemens and Sosa. If those three weren't on the ballot, Biggio would have been elected. 3,000 hits, like 300 wins and 500 dingers used to guarantee enshireme

Actually, the above probably helped Biggio more than anything. Many writers probably use comparisons with other balloted players. With Biggio not directly linked to steroids like the others, he should have been viewed more favorably this year. Wait unitl next year when his numbers are compared to Frank Thomas' and Maddux hits the ballot also. See how many of those 68%+ think he deserves the same recognition of those 2.

dennis07

I'm a huge Murphy fan but I think the voters got this one right. I would think one day the Expansion Era Committee (You might know it from its old name- Veterans Committee)
would consider electing Murphy to the Hall.