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New Legend Hot Topic posted
Justacommeman
Posts: 22,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
Walker Proof Digital Album
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
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Thank you. Always an interesting read.
Nick
Member, Society of Silver Dollar Collectors.
Looking for PCGS AU58+ 1901-P, 1896-O, & 1894-O
Anyway, great insights. The more I read Laura's thoughts (and learn to ignore the spelling/syntax errors), the more I respect her and like her.
My icon IS my coin. It is a gem 1949 FBL Franklin.
Really ??!
Judge for yourself
PCGS and NGC are doing theirr part. We sent in a client's SLQ that had apparently been worked on decades ago by one of the best. It had been through the PCGS several times for upgrade and it went through fine. Finally when PCGS caught it, they DID THEIR JOB and took it off the market. Kudos to them.
All other complaining without action is just lip service.
siliconvalleycoins.com
<< <i>"Are you inferring the above coin is doctored?"
Judge for yourself >>
I know enough not to make such pronouncements off of two images shot at different angles under different lighting. Especially when one has a blue label and the other is practically white! Just sayin...
EAC 6024
It's good that it's being addressed. But why not use some of those efforts towards a problem that is 10X to 100X larger....the proper and consistent grading of coins.
For every uninformed person that buys a doctored slabbed coin, there are >10 others that bought a lousy coin in a holder and later found out it's not worth close to the money the
grade said it was. Those people rarely speak up either, just take their lumps and move on hoping it doesn't happen again or leave the hobby entirely. The fact that we have
at least 4 different levels of pricing for the same coin in the same grade indicates we in fact do have a sizeable grading problem (or did). With millions of legacy coins still in holders,
the problem doesn't go away by just tightening up today. There are no easy solutions. Every time I see the doctoring flag waved, I wonder why we aren't addressing this bigger
problem that affects a much larger % of the coin community? Yes, the advent of stickering has been a move in the right direction. Unfortunately, it has had the negative effect of
driving down the prices of most coins that don't have stickers. For those dealing in only stickered coins, they are basically insulated. I guess in a way that's addressing the problem
since the price of not so good coins is being driven down....even if a lot of good ones are taken down with them (tossing out the baby along with the bath water). I wonder how dealers
today deal with customers bringing back coins sold to them years earlier as "all there," yet won't sticker today. That's a thorny issue to deal with. Do you just tell them to take a hike
because grading is subjective or do you help them out? A lot of dealers would just tell their customer they currently have no need for that coin but would buy it otherwise. Problem
solved. I don't see any solution on the horizon other than an entirely new grading system where everything has to be regraded OR phasing out TPG's entirely other than for
authentication/attribution/alteration. We can muddle on for years as is though I think eventually the current system will collapse upon itself. Maybe TDN's big news for 2013 involves
this issue. Computerized grading/alteration detection might produce such an answer.
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
part of the learning curve if one chooses to remain in the hobby...
I am certainly in the category of addiction and it has cost me lots of money
in mistakes.....I choose to remain an avid collector but not as much as in the past.....
This problem definitely holds back the growth of the hobby ......its unfortunate...
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
You can go the websites where the coins are posted, see more pics, and perhaps make a better judgment:
BEFORE and AFTER
Oh yes; the price has been adjusted from $12,650 to $43,500 to reflect the different angles and lighting.
<< <i>I am as pro-Legend, pro-PCGS, pro-CAC, pro-Laura, pro-dealer, pro-ANA, and pro-PNG as just about anyone, but I have learned over time, in life in and outside of coins, that institutions and individuals that are there to protect you will occasionally disappoint or frankly fail you. As coins are not a necessity for life, there really is no true safety net, and it is prudent to operate under the assumption that each individual must ultimately protect himself or herself. >>
This. MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
That about sums it up for me. Man...agreeing a ton with RYK today.
siliconvalleycoins.com
I know that CAC makes a market in coins they have stickered, and will offer to buy some( not all) if requested.
Example--they sticker a PCGS early gold $5 in MS 63. Both they and PCGS have missed some alteration of the surface-slight putting,
Who does the owner go to for refunds/adjustment? Does CAC pay more because they increased its selling price by having it approved?
Does PCGS become the only source for refund? Or are both possible candidates for correcting the discrepancy?
<< <i>I promise, when and if I get elected to the ANA's board, I WILL ask the 30,000 active members to give me the power to be their voice. ALL of the numismatic gods will answer to them……
Doesn't look like Laura but both are aiming at the same thing!!!
<< <i>"I know enough not to make such pronouncements off of two images shot at different angles under different lighting. Especially when one has a blue label and the other is practically white! Just sayin... "
You can go the websites where the coins are posted, see more pics, and perhaps make a better judgment:
BEFORE and AFTER
Oh yes; the price has been adjusted from $12,650 to $43,500 to reflect the different angles and lighting. >>
Definitely shot under different lighting conditions. While obviously there is evidence of an upgrade, there is no direct evidence of doctoring in order to get that upgrade. I have personal experience with drab looking copper patterns 'coming alive' after being dipped in acetone to remove a film. That is NOT doctoring and certainly could be the case here.
I hope that they start a “Buy coins responsibly” program and provide collectors avenues to seek help with their addiction!
<< <i>Question?
I know that CAC makes a market in coins they have stickered, and will offer to buy some( not all) if requested.
Example--they sticker a PCGS early gold $5 in MS 63. Both they and PCGS have missed some alteration of the surface-slight putting,
Who does the owner go to for refunds/adjustment? Does CAC pay more because they increased its selling price by having it approved?
Does PCGS become the only source for refund? Or are both possible candidates for correcting the discrepancy? >>
John will pay the going sticker price if gone to him first.
However from my vantage point I see the coin doctoring problem a little differently.
For starters puttying a coin is like Coin Doctoring 101. This was very prevalent a few years ago. Now days the doctors have for the most part moved on to more sophisticated methods (not to be discussed here). It is extremely easy to spot a puttied coin that has been in a holder for many months or years. You don't need to be a good coin grader to do that. I am a little fed up with hearing how smart someone is because they can spot a coin that was puttied years earlier. If you or anyone finds a puttied coin in a PCGS holder please return it to us. There is no charge. It's as simple as that. This is something that all collectors and dealers can do and should do.
Lets quick picking sides and agree to find and remove all the doctored coins. At PCGS we have ways of determining who did the work and we go after them (quietly). Of the millions of graded coins out there a very tiny percentage have been doctored.
All the grading services have their place in the business but don't forget one all important fact. PCGS was the first company to guarantee a coin's authenticity and grade. It was the PCGS guarantee that created the coin market as we know it today. Thousands of new collectors and investors gained enough confidence in the coin market - BECAUSE OF THE PCGS GUARANTEE - to jump in and spend their money. I daresay that applies to virtually every customer of Legend.
While I am on a roll ..... where was everyone else when PCGS filed the Coin Doctor law suit? Instead of seeing people rally to our side we stood on our own. PCGS has spent millions on technology to counter coin doctoring. Our technology is not perfect but it's a heck of a lot more than anyone else has done.
Lets put one thing to bed. No one can spot a freshly puttied coin with their eyes. You might be able to smell it, or feel it (or Sniff it!). So lets get off our high horse about how great we are to find a coin that was puttied years ago!
Unless you focus on more expensive coins - let's say 3K and up - in which case the "relatively small problem" is far more common, dangerous and demoralizing.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>I applaud Laura's fight to rid the hobby of coin doctors. I like Laura and I completely support her election bid to the ANA board. Laura fights the good fight for all of us.
However from my vantage point I see the coin doctoring problem a little differently.
For starters puttying a coin is like Coin Doctoring 101. This was very prevalent a few years ago. Now days the doctors have for the most part moved on to more sophisticated methods (not to be discussed here). It is extremely easy to spot a puttied coin that has been in a holder for many months or years. You don't need to be a good coin grader to do that. I am a little fed up with hearing how smart someone is because they can spot a coin that was puttied years earlier. If you or anyone finds a puttied coin in a PCGS holder please return it to us. There is no charge. It's as simple as that. This is something that all collectors and dealers can do and should do.
Lets quick picking sides and agree to find and remove all the doctored coins. At PCGS we have ways of determining who did the work and we go after them (quietly). Of the millions of graded coins out there a very tiny percentage have been doctored.
All the grading services have their place in the business but don't forget one all important fact. PCGS was the first company to guarantee a coin's authenticity and grade. It was the PCGS guarantee that created the coin market as we know it today. Thousands of new collectors and investors gained enough confidence in the coin market - BECAUSE OF THE PCGS GUARANTEE - to jump in and spend their money. I daresay that applies to virtually every customer of Legend.
While I am on a roll ..... where was everyone else when PCGS filed the Coin Doctor law suit? Instead of seeing people rally to our side we stood on our own. PCGS has spent millions on technology to counter coin doctoring. Our technology is not perfect but it's a heck of a lot more than anyone else has done.
Lets put one thing to bed. No one can spot a freshly puttied coin with their eyes. You might be able to smell it, or feel it (or Sniff it!). So lets get off our high horse about how great we are to find a coin that was puttied years ago! >>
1) I owned an 1845 PCGS CAC eagle that developed a huge copper spot after 2y in a SDB. I highly doubt a copper spot will show up de novo on a 170 year old gold coin. it's a basic certainty that spot existed and was removed some time prior to the TPG holdering. Is this doctoring?
2) I own an 1840 PCGS eagle, not CAC, that developed a dull putty-like haze after ~2y in the same SDB. I sent it in for spot review and it came back beautifully conserved- haze was gone but the olive tone was preserved, and this time it was CAC approved. Is this doctoring?
3) I own an 1843-O PCGS CAC eagle that I'm pretty sure had three copper spots conserved on the reverse. It's now spending time in the same SDB that the other two turned in. Is this doctoring?
<< <i>While not every one will agree about the grading, a CAC coin WILL prevent you from buying a doctored coin.
1) I owned an 1845 PCGS CAC eagle that developed a huge copper spot after 2y in a SDB. I highly doubt a copper spot will show up de novo on a 170 year old gold coin. it's a basic certainty that spot existed and was removed some time prior to the TPG holdering. Is this doctoring?
2) I own an 1840 PCGS eagle, not CAC, that developed a dull putty-like haze after ~2y in the same SDB. I sent it in for spot review and it came back beautifully conserved- haze was gone but the olive tone was preserved, and this time it was CAC approved. Is this doctoring?
3) I own an 1843-O PCGS CAC eagle that I'm pretty sure had three copper spots conserved on the reverse. It's now spending time in the same SDB that the other two turned in. Is this doctoring? >>
1. Yes.
2. No.
3. Maybe.
I know there is an official definition of doctoring, but my personal definition requires the coin to be intentionally altered with the goal of deceiving the grading service, the next or future owner, or anyone who might be in a position to value the coin higher as a result of the action. The whole copper spot issue is a bit more nebulous as some collectors to not consider all copper spots to be desirable.
Putty also is somewhat murky as sometimes the reason for applying putty is something that really does not require putty, and in your example #2, removal of the putty left you with a coin that was equally or more desirable.
Any other Forum members wish to comment?
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
<< <i>Sure, coin doctoring is a problem. But in the overall scheme of things it's a relatively small problem appearing on a relatively low % coins.
Unless you focus on more expensive coins - let's say 3K and up - in which case the "relatively small problem" is far more common, dangerous and demoralizing. >>
Agreed. And that's up in the range of coin dealers like Legend, not so much the little guys. But, they get paid the big bucks to avoid those coins for their customers.
Good message but hard problem to fix. In my opinion PCGS has done all the work on going after the docs, Laura is just a cheerleader, a good one at that but just a cheerleader.
I hope she gets elected and does some good, but if the rest of the board does not like her ways she will be sitting in a corner by herself. For all her go get em and hang em cheers only PCGS has tried to take them on. Has Legend ever caught the internet poster that posted all that BS about Legend? I have not seen any threads saying they found the person but i may have missed it.
This is a pasionate hobby for a lot of us, others just look at the money side of it and if a dip or putty job will double their money well you know.....
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
Last time I googled some of the defendants names, it seemed that the PCGS complaint was never actually served on the defendants and was dismissed. I hope that there have been later developments as I thought the complaint as described in Coin Week had merit.