I would lean to a MS65 business strike because of the bagmarked letters UNIT, bagmarks on the cheek, and the coin just doesn't have the eye appeal "pop" the other coins show. Still, I would not be surprised if our hosts would call it a proof. The strike and die variety both say yes.
Your follow-up pictures are much better....All known 1837 N7 proofs exhibit the die crack and some "mushiness" ( the N7 is the later die state of the delisted N8) . However, the surfaces exhibited in your newest photo do not appear to be proof strike surfaces - rather the business strike. Compare the surfaces of the proof 1837 Heritage photos and also to the naftzger and Holmes mint state examples. Please post the TPG results....good luck.
I just pulled out my other copper early proofs and sat down and looked at them and compared the surfaces to this LC, and well all 4 have the same look even under 30x power. As for my so called proofs so far I've purchased three with poor pictures and they all where proofs as I suspected. As well as the 1872 proof set was bought as a proof set and well they all where and they all eventually graded. So I might be wrong this time, but my batting average is pretty high so far.
BTW my photos are never convincing, I am doomed to poor photography Here is my PCGS 1872 PR63RB, to show my usual look I get when I take photos. Also to compare the surface look in these photos to my 1837 surface look, when I take a photo they do not pop, thats why people pay others to take the good ones.
. before the verdict i am going to say it isn't a proof. but i eagerly await seeing how my skills are after studying pre-civil war proof usa coinage and how they fair from using these images.
No, I dropped it while examining it, with my English book also in hand. It got a huge gash on it so I threw it away in a tantrum of all sorts of hysterics.
<< <i>No I dropped while examining it, with my English book also in hand. It got a huge gash on it so I threw it away in a tantrum of all sorts of hysterics. >>
you may wish to reconsider! 175 years from now some prepubescent teen will take out his thumbnail sized flash drive with an archived compendium of all human knowledge, then he will dig through our posts in search of the person that put the gouge in the coin and desire to track down that specific specimen representing a significant moment of triumph in his research+purchasing journey to share with his fellow future numismatists! .
My first time reading this thread, I pulled out Wright, Noyes, and Breen. Only Wright references the possibility of proofs in N7. My initial thought was that your coin did not look like a proof to me but the proofs certified for this year have some unusual aspects to them so I would yield to experts.
However, this wasn't how I expected the thread to end--a surprise ending that even a spy novel author wouldn't expect.
If the waste engineer hasn't hauled it off yet, you might want to find it. Even an impaired proof is worth several thousand $ and an impaired MS coin several hundred...
Can you share with me how you came to own it? The provenance of such coins is important.
<< <i>No, I dropped it while examining it, with my English book also in hand. It got a huge gash on it so I threw it away in a tantrum of all sorts of hysterics. >>
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
<< <i>As for my so called proofs so far I've boughten three with poor pictures and they all where proofs as I suspected. >>
Boughten? >>
Past participle of buy. It's commonly used in the North/NE parts of the US. On the subject of the original coin, I don't personally think it is a proof. To me the rims/stars/strike/surfaces just don't indicate proof.
Here is the definition, the word is not cromulent.
bought·en (bôtn) Chiefly Northern U.S. v. A past participle of buy. adj. 1. Commercially made; purchased, as opposed to homemade: boughten bread. 2. Artificial; false. Used of teeth. Regional Note: American regional dialects allow freer adjectival use of certain past participles of verbs than does Standard English. Time-honored examples are boughten (chiefly Northern U.S.) and bought (chiefly Southern U.S.) to mean "purchased rather than homemade": a boughten dress, bought bread. The Northern form boughten (as in store boughten) features the participial ending -en, added to bought, the participial form, probably by analogy with more common participial adjectives such as frozen. Another development, analogous to homemade, is evident in bought-made, cited in DARE from a Texas informant.
<< <i>Here is the definition, the word is not cromulent.
bought·en (bôtn) Chiefly Northern U.S. v. A past participle of buy. adj. 1. Commercially made; purchased, as opposed to homemade: boughten bread. 2. Artificial; false. Used of teeth. Regional Note: American regional dialects allow freer adjectival use of certain past participles of verbs than does Standard English. Time-honored examples are boughten (chiefly Northern U.S.) and bought (chiefly Southern U.S.) to mean "purchased rather than homemade": a boughten dress, bought bread. The Northern form boughten (as in store boughten) features the participial ending -en, added to bought, the participial form, probably by analogy with more common participial adjectives such as frozen. Another development, analogous to homemade, is evident in bought-made, cited in DARE from a Texas informant. >>
Cromulent - adjective meaning acceptable, legitimate or normal. A neologism created to explain certain regionally acceptable words that others may be unfamiliar with (such as embiggen).
Cromulent - adjective meaning acceptable, legitimate or normal. A neologism created to explain certain regionally acceptable words that others may be unfamiliar with (such as embiggen).
So - what about the coin? >>
Ok well that definition of cromulent is different.
1. Cromulent Used in an ironical sense to mean legitimate, and therefore, in reality, spurious and not at all legitimate. Assumes common knowledge of the inherent Simpsons reference. Yes Professor Smith, these citations are perfectly cromulent. chuckle
2. cromulent (Adj.) Used to describe a dubious or made up word, term, or phrase that is entirely plausible because it makes logical sense within existing language conventions
As for the coin, my other comment was in jest. The coin is somewhere safe in a little brown box on its way to PCGS.
Posting before results are in. I don't think there's a chance that it's a proof. I know there are weakly stuck and imperfect proofs in the L1¢ series especially, but after coming into contact with plenty of nice MS and PR pieces, I wouldn't have turned a second look to the status of this coin if not for this thread (not saying it's not nice, just I don't think there's a real question). Prove me wrong and add a few 0's the price.
Specialist in Lincoln Cents, Toned Type, and Slab enthusiast.
So does "incromulent", itself cromulent, refer to an unaccepted or implausible neologism, standard language, or both, and if both, does the ambiguity of its meaning render "incromulent" to be incromulent, thus making it again cromulent?
<< <i>. i thought this chunk of copper was en route to pcgs already for the $100 speedy service?
did i thinked wrongly? . >>
No you have it right, Its been in the mail. This is going registered mail so it takes longer, and yes service level is walkthrough. Tracking says delivery on the 1st but I have never had registered mail show up when it says it will. So be patient, I will keep you guys update no matter what the outcome, I did say possible in the title so that in it self means I am ready for anything. The one thing to keep in mind I have compared this to the Holmes, Naftzger, and any other N8/7 I could find and I still feel this is a special coin. I also have one more twist to the journey to be revealed at the end. BTW I used secure plus as well on this coin.
<< <i> I did say possible in the title so that in it self means I am ready for anything. >>
ya ya ya, i hear it all the time but do you really mean it? what are you going to do if it comes back a buffalo nickel? people use that so loosely i'm not sure they even understand what it means anymore, just a #*#&$ punchline .
<< <i> I did say possible in the title so that in it self means I am ready for anything. >>
ya ya ya, i hear it all the time but do you really mean it? what are you going to do if it comes back a buffalo nickel? people use that so loosely i'm not sure they even understand what it means anymore, just a #*#&$ punchline . >>
<< <i>My first time reading this thread, I pulled out Wright, Noyes, and Breen. Only Wright references the possibility of proofs in N7. My initial thought was that your coin did not look like a proof to me but the proofs certified for this year have some unusual aspects to them so I would yield to experts.
However, this wasn't how I expected the thread to end--a surprise ending that even a spy novel author wouldn't expect.
If the waste engineer hasn't hauled it off yet, you might want to find it. Even an impaired proof is worth several thousand $ and an impaired MS coin several hundred...
Can you share with me how you came to own it? The provenance of such coins is important.
--Jery >>
Jerry, I found this reference in Breens proof encyclopedia. Listed under 1837 cent, I think right after the N3 description and provenances. For others reading this who don't know N8 is no longer referenced as such but as a earlier die state of N7, also sometimes referred to as N8/7
- Same head. N-8: Date high, nearly straight, 7 very close to curl. Die scratches above MERI, seven center dots. Newcomb II: 684 to Philadelphia Estate.
<< <i>No, I dropped it while examining it, with my English book also in hand. It got a huge gash on it so I threw it away in a tantrum of all sorts of hysterics. >>
?
WTB... errors, New Orleans gold, and circulated 20th key date coins!
<< <i>No, I dropped it while examining it, with my English book also in hand. It got a huge gash on it so I threw it away in a tantrum of all sorts of hysterics. >>
<< <i>michiganboy, did you send the coin to PCGS? >>
<< <i>Its been in the mail. This is going registered mail so it takes longer, and yes service level is walkthrough. Tracking says delivery on the 1st but I have never had registered mail show up when it says it will. So be patient, I will keep you guys update no matter what the outcome, I did say possible in the title so that in it self means I am ready for anything. The one thing to keep in mind I have compared this to the Holmes, Naftzger, and any other N8/7 I could find and I still feel this is a special coin. I also have one more twist to the journey to be revealed at the end. BTW I used secure plus as well on this coin. >>
<< <i>There is a chance that the Starr coin you are comparing it to is not a proof. >>
That is what I have been thinking, Rick, but I did not want to be the one to say it. It would certainly not be the first time that Walter Breen early proof provenance was not 100% accurate. I expect the coin will be designated a business strike, and no grade for cleaning.
As for my judgement on cleaning, it is certainly hard to be certain from the OPs pics, but the areas right by the date and the haloes around stars 5 and 6 make me nervous. I hope I am wrong, but....
<< <i>My first time reading this thread, I pulled out Wright, Noyes, and Breen. Only Wright references the possibility of proofs in N7. My initial thought was that your coin did not look like a proof to me but the proofs certified for this year have some unusual aspects to them so I would yield to experts.
However, this wasn't how I expected the thread to end--a surprise ending that even a spy novel author wouldn't expect.
If the waste engineer hasn't hauled it off yet, you might want to find it. Even an impaired proof is worth several thousand $ and an impaired MS coin several hundred...
Can you share with me how you came to own it? The provenance of such coins is important.
--Jery >>
Jerry, I found this reference in Breens proof encyclopedia. Listed under 1837 cent, I think right after the N3 description and provenances. For others reading this who don't know N8 is no longer referenced as such but as a earlier die state of N7, also sometimes referred to as N8/7
- Same head. N-8: Date high, nearly straight, 7 very close to curl. Die scratches above MERI, seven center dots. Newcomb II: 684 to Philadelphia Estate. >>
I saw that in breen too but in my haste didn't pick up the duplicity of N8 and N7. Breem s notes are sometimes a bit cryptic. Good luck. --Jerry
<< <i>no grade for cleaning unfortunately.......hey I am just repeating what MB said a couple of posts above..........I realize he is laughing but have no reason to doubt what he prints >>
No, I was laughing at the poster above you stating he thought it might no grade for cleaning, that was a hoot. As for the grade they just checked it in today even though they received it on Monday. I will check right now if its graded but I doubt they will have it finished today since they just checked it in at like 10:30am or sometime around there. As well as the secure plus extra steps might add time I don't really know. Like I said before I will post ASAP even if I'm wrong and its a worth a whole lot less then I paid.
Edited to add not finished grading as of 12/4/12 3:11pm
michigan boy - from the peanut gallery, I have enjoyed your earlier thread on the seated proof coins and now this large cent. It's like reading a mystery novel trying to determine the outcome. I wish you a favorable result!
edited to add - 100!
Seated Half Society member #38
"She comes out of the sun in a silk dress, running like a water color in the rain...."
Comments
<< <i>So when will it be sent into PCGS already, I can't wait!
Knowing MB it is already there
Actually probably Tuesday, but on a walkthrough submission so the wait won't be long.
type2,CCHunter.
I would lean to a MS65 business strike because of the bagmarked letters UNIT, bagmarks on the cheek, and the coin just doesn't have the eye appeal "pop" the other coins show. Still, I would not be surprised if our hosts would
call it a proof. The strike and die variety both say yes.
Free Trial
type2,CCHunter.
BTW my photos are never convincing, I am doomed to poor photography
type2,CCHunter.
before the verdict i am going to say it isn't a proof. but i eagerly await seeing how my skills are after studying pre-civil war proof usa coinage and how they fair from using these images.
thanks for a great thread either way it goes
.
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
<< <i>As for my so called proofs so far I've boughten three with poor pictures and they all where proofs as I suspected. >>
Boughten?
Eric
...just kidding
type2,CCHunter.
<< <i>No I dropped while examining it, with my English book also in hand. It got a huge gash on it so I threw it away in a tantrum of all sorts of hysterics. >>
you may wish to reconsider! 175 years from now some prepubescent teen will take out his thumbnail sized flash drive with an archived compendium of all human knowledge, then he will dig through our posts in search of the person that put the gouge in the coin and desire to track down that specific specimen representing a significant moment of triumph in his research+purchasing journey to share with his fellow future numismatists!
.
However, this wasn't how I expected the thread to end--a surprise ending that even a spy novel author wouldn't expect.
If the waste engineer hasn't hauled it off yet, you might want to find it. Even an impaired proof is worth several thousand $ and an impaired MS coin several hundred...
Can you share with me how you came to own it? The provenance of such coins is important.
--Jery
<< <i>No, I dropped it while examining it, with my English book also in hand. It got a huge gash on it so I threw it away in a tantrum of all sorts of hysterics. >>
<< <i>
<< <i>As for my so called proofs so far I've boughten three with poor pictures and they all where proofs as I suspected. >>
Boughten? >>
Past participle of buy. It's commonly used in the North/NE parts of the US. On the subject of the original coin, I don't personally think it is a proof. To me the rims/stars/strike/surfaces just don't indicate proof.
<< <i>
<< <i>As for my so called proofs so far I've boughten three with poor pictures and they all where proofs as I suspected. >>
Boughten? >>
It is a perfectly cromulent word.
merse
bought·en (bôtn) Chiefly Northern U.S.
v.
A past participle of buy.
adj.
1. Commercially made; purchased, as opposed to homemade: boughten bread.
2. Artificial; false. Used of teeth.
Regional Note: American regional dialects allow freer adjectival use of certain past participles of verbs than does Standard English. Time-honored examples are boughten (chiefly Northern U.S.) and bought (chiefly Southern U.S.) to mean "purchased rather than homemade": a boughten dress, bought bread. The Northern form boughten (as in store boughten) features the participial ending -en, added to bought, the participial form, probably by analogy with more common participial adjectives such as frozen. Another development, analogous to homemade, is evident in bought-made, cited in DARE from a Texas informant.
type2,CCHunter.
<< <i>Here is the definition, the word is not cromulent.
bought·en (bôtn) Chiefly Northern U.S.
v.
A past participle of buy.
adj.
1. Commercially made; purchased, as opposed to homemade: boughten bread.
2. Artificial; false. Used of teeth.
Regional Note: American regional dialects allow freer adjectival use of certain past participles of verbs than does Standard English. Time-honored examples are boughten (chiefly Northern U.S.) and bought (chiefly Southern U.S.) to mean "purchased rather than homemade": a boughten dress, bought bread. The Northern form boughten (as in store boughten) features the participial ending -en, added to bought, the participial form, probably by analogy with more common participial adjectives such as frozen. Another development, analogous to homemade, is evident in bought-made, cited in DARE from a Texas informant. >>
Cromulent - adjective meaning acceptable, legitimate or normal. A neologism created to explain certain regionally acceptable words that others may be unfamiliar with (such as embiggen).
So - what about the coin?
merse
So - what about the coin? >>
Ok well that definition of cromulent is different.
1. Cromulent
Used in an ironical sense to mean legitimate, and therefore, in reality, spurious and not at all legitimate. Assumes common knowledge of the inherent Simpsons reference.
Yes Professor Smith, these citations are perfectly cromulent. chuckle
2. cromulent
(Adj.) Used to describe a dubious or made up word, term, or phrase that is entirely plausible because it makes logical sense within existing language conventions
As for the coin, my other comment was in jest. The coin is somewhere safe in a little brown box on its way to PCGS.
type2,CCHunter.
Empty Nest Collection
Good luck on the submission!
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
i thought this chunk of copper was en route to pcgs already for the $100 speedy service?
did i thinked wrongly?
.
<< <i>.
i thought this chunk of copper was en route to pcgs already for the $100 speedy service?
did i thinked wrongly?
. >>
No you have it right, Its been in the mail. This is going registered mail so it takes longer, and yes service level is walkthrough. Tracking says delivery on the 1st but I have never had registered mail show up when it says it will. So be patient, I will keep you guys update no matter what the outcome, I did say possible in the title so that in it self means I am ready for anything. The one thing to keep in mind I have compared this to the Holmes, Naftzger, and any other N8/7 I could find and I still feel this is a special coin. I also have one more twist to the journey to be revealed at the end. BTW I used secure plus as well on this coin.
type2,CCHunter.
<< <i> I did say possible in the title so that in it self means I am ready for anything. >>
ya ya ya, i hear it all the time but do you really mean it? what are you going to do if it comes back a buffalo nickel? people use that so loosely i'm not sure they even understand what it means anymore, just a #*#&$ punchline
.
<< <i>
<< <i> I did say possible in the title so that in it self means I am ready for anything. >>
ya ya ya, i hear it all the time but do you really mean it? what are you going to do if it comes back a buffalo nickel? people use that so loosely i'm not sure they even understand what it means anymore, just a #*#&$ punchline
. >>
Now thats just plain funny.
type2,CCHunter.
<< <i>My first time reading this thread, I pulled out Wright, Noyes, and Breen. Only Wright references the possibility of proofs in N7. My initial thought was that your coin did not look like a proof to me but the proofs certified for this year have some unusual aspects to them so I would yield to experts.
However, this wasn't how I expected the thread to end--a surprise ending that even a spy novel author wouldn't expect.
If the waste engineer hasn't hauled it off yet, you might want to find it. Even an impaired proof is worth several thousand $ and an impaired MS coin several hundred...
Can you share with me how you came to own it? The provenance of such coins is important.
--Jery >>
Jerry, I found this reference in Breens proof encyclopedia. Listed under 1837 cent, I think right after the N3 description and provenances. For others reading this who don't know N8 is no longer referenced as such but as a earlier die state of N7, also sometimes referred to as N8/7
- Same head. N-8: Date high, nearly straight, 7 very close to curl. Die scratches above MERI, seven center dots. Newcomb II: 684 to Philadelphia Estate.
type2,CCHunter.
<< <i>Jerry, I found this reference in Breens proof encyclopedia. >>
forgive me for being uber-specific, but is the book to which you refer
Walter Breen's Encyclopedia of United States and COlonial Proof Coins 1792-1989 ?
TIA
.
<< <i>
<< <i>Jerry, I found this reference in Breens proof encyclopedia. >>
forgive me for being uber-specific, but is the book to which you refer
Walter Breen's Encyclopedia of United States and COlonial Proof Coins 1792-1989 ?
TIA
. >>
Yes
type2,CCHunter.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Jerry, I found this reference in Breens proof encyclopedia. >>
forgive me for being uber-specific, but is the book to which you refer
Walter Breen's Encyclopedia of United States and COlonial Proof Coins 1792-1989 ?
TIA
. >>
Yes >>
ty
well what the heck good is it for me to have all these books if i'm not gonna use em, geeze
.
<< <i>No, I dropped it while examining it, with my English book also in hand. It got a huge gash on it so I threw it away in a tantrum of all sorts of hysterics. >>
?
<< <i>
<< <i>No, I dropped it while examining it, with my English book also in hand. It got a huge gash on it so I threw it away in a tantrum of all sorts of hysterics. >>
? >>
That was a joke.
type2,CCHunter.
Check out some of my 1794 Large Cents on www.coingallery.org
<< <i>michiganboy, did you send the coin to PCGS? >>
<< <i>Its been in the mail. This is going registered mail so it takes longer, and yes service level is walkthrough. Tracking says delivery on the 1st but I have never had registered mail show up when it says it will. So be patient, I will keep you guys update no matter what the outcome, I did say possible in the title so that in it self means I am ready for anything. The one thing to keep in mind I have compared this to the Holmes, Naftzger, and any other N8/7 I could find and I still feel this is a special coin. I also have one more twist to the journey to be revealed at the end. BTW I used secure plus as well on this coin. >>
.
type2,CCHunter.
Lance.
Check out some of my 1794 Large Cents on www.coingallery.org
<< <i>Shows delivered to there PO box today, so I would guess tuesday I will have a answer as well as grade. I will keep you guys updated ASAP. >>
My best to you. No matter what it grades, you have a beautiful coin there.
My icon IS my coin. It is a gem 1949 FBL Franklin.
<< <i>There is a chance that the Starr coin you are comparing it to is not a proof. >>
That is what I have been thinking, Rick, but I did not want to be the one to say it. It would certainly not be the first time that Walter Breen early proof provenance was not 100% accurate. I expect the coin will be designated a business strike, and no grade for cleaning.
As for my judgement on cleaning, it is certainly hard to be certain from the OPs pics, but the areas right by the date and the haloes around stars 5 and 6 make me nervous. I hope I am wrong, but....
merse
<< <i>and no grade for cleaning. >>
type2,CCHunter.
<< <i>
<< <i>My first time reading this thread, I pulled out Wright, Noyes, and Breen. Only Wright references the possibility of proofs in N7. My initial thought was that your coin did not look like a proof to me but the proofs certified for this year have some unusual aspects to them so I would yield to experts.
However, this wasn't how I expected the thread to end--a surprise ending that even a spy novel author wouldn't expect.
If the waste engineer hasn't hauled it off yet, you might want to find it. Even an impaired proof is worth several thousand $ and an impaired MS coin several hundred...
Can you share with me how you came to own it? The provenance of such coins is important.
--Jery >>
Jerry, I found this reference in Breens proof encyclopedia. Listed under 1837 cent, I think right after the N3 description and provenances. For others reading this who don't know N8 is no longer referenced as such but as a earlier die state of N7, also sometimes referred to as N8/7
- Same head. N-8: Date high, nearly straight, 7 very close to curl. Die scratches above MERI, seven center dots. Newcomb II: 684 to Philadelphia Estate. >>
I saw that in breen too but in my haste didn't pick up the duplicity of N8 and N7. Breem
s notes are sometimes a bit cryptic. Good luck. --Jerry
merse
<< <i>no grade for cleaning unfortunately.......hey I am just repeating what MB said a couple of posts above..........I realize he is laughing but have no reason to doubt what he prints
No, I was laughing at the poster above you stating he thought it might no grade for cleaning, that was a hoot. As for the grade they just checked it in today even though they received it on Monday. I will check right now if its graded but I doubt they will have it finished today since they just checked it in at like 10:30am or sometime around there. As well as the secure plus extra steps might add time I don't really know. Like I said before I will post ASAP even if I'm wrong and its a worth a whole lot less then I paid.
Edited to add not finished grading as of 12/4/12 3:11pm
type2,CCHunter.
edited to add - 100!
"She comes out of the sun in a silk dress,
running like a water color in the rain...."