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Mint police officer sentenced in missing edge dollar coin theft...
kiyote
Posts: 5,627 ✭✭✭✭✭
It's a good update on the story...
36 months in the slammer!
There's a lot of hard core convicts that collect. I wouldn't want to be that guy.
36 months in the slammer!
There's a lot of hard core convicts that collect. I wouldn't want to be that guy.
"I'll split the atom! I am the fifth dimension! I am the eighth wonder of the world!" -Gef the talking mongoose.
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"Answered"
The name is LEE!
Nothing surprises me anymore , that's the biggest pile of horse manure , unwitting my rear end.
<< <i>It's a good update on the story...
36 months in the slammer!
There's a lot of hard core convicts that collect. I wouldn't want to be that guy. >>
The guy that got my stuff was definitely a collector. However, I think his hobby was meth.
<< <i>I wonder who the California Dealer was and if perhaps the coins purchased by that dealer can be traced? >>
" According to Gray’s plea agreement filed Sept. 8, 2011, a public document that Coin World obtained, Gray identified the California coin firm to whom he sold the stolen error coins as Byers Numismatic Corp. The firm, owned by Michael S. Byers, is currently located in San Clemente, Calif. "
" Reilly said Sept. 25 that there is no evidence that Byers knew the Presidential dollars lacking edge lettering that Gray supplied to the firm were stolen. Reilly said the U.S. Attorney’s Office has no plans to pursue any charges against Byers. "
I thought that was "Dealing in Stolen Property", guess it's different in California. His butt should be swing in the wind also.
It would seem to me that Washington and Adams error coins might be tough to determine properly obtained coins vs. the stolen coins. Might it get much easier though for the errors following Adams? Of course, that assumes there were any stolen error coins after Washington and Adams for which I have no idea.
As always, just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin
I would assume security must be tight, maybe he had help from the surveillance dept.
I have doubts that this was a one man operation.
EDIT: What happens to the 10-12k worth of Prez bucks that collectors paid big dollars for?
PS I am shocked that no charges were filed against the dealer. If someone like that sold me the only smooth edge dollars available for every president I would get very suspicious. I don't know this guy but perhaps he got a deal to cooperate against the thief. Maybe he turned him in although it seems it took a while. Hard to call the cops on the goose that lays a golden egg every 90 days.....
Stolen Coins, but the US isnt going to go after these?
If the US claims that the 1933 Gold is stolen, then these Coins should be returned.
Member, Society of Silver Dollar Collectors.
Looking for PCGS AU58+ 1901-P, 1896-O, & 1894-O
https://acoinshop.com/ —-> https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>Government job to government assistance. He has enough time to get an associates degree. And with good behavior , maybe he'll run for politics upon release. >>
Sometimes the truth is just hilarious.
Slabbed Gold For Sale
<< <i>Sounds like it is still open as to whether they will declare the later president smooth edge dollars illegal to own similar to 1933 saints. --Jerry
I don't know if the govt would make an issue of this but I think it would be wrong to do so. They recovered the thief's money and he is doing time. I think the states loss has been compensated.
<< <i>How did this guy have access to the coin areas?
Stolen Coins, but the US isnt going to go after these?
If the US claims that the 1933 Gold is stolen, then these Coins should be returned. >>
The question is, "how does the govt know that a specific coin is stolen or was accidentally released legitimately by the mint."
For the first few presidents, when the mint was clearly releasing errors, it would be impossible. But for later presidents, after the mint changed the process and I am not aware of ANY errors being found in rolls, I can see them making a case. --Jerry
I would think pattern collectors would be watching this very carefully, particularly the 1933 langbord trial. Who is to say the government won't declare the boxes of patterns given to William Woodin a null deal?
<< <i>It would be hard to prosecute, imagine the windfall of coins that have left the mint under suspicious circumstances!
I would think pattern collectors would be watching this very carefully, particularly the 1933 langbord trial. Who is to say the government won't declare the boxes of patterns given to William Woodin a null deal? >>
I believe the govt tried to go after patterns years ago and lost.
<< <i>
<< <i>How did this guy have access to the coin areas?
Stolen Coins, but the US isnt going to go after these?
If the US claims that the 1933 Gold is stolen, then these Coins should be returned. >>
The question is, "how does the govt know that a specific coin is stolen or was accidentally released legitimately by the mint."
For the first few presidents, when the mint was clearly releasing errors, it would be impossible. But for later presidents, after the mint changed the process and I am not aware of ANY errors being found in rolls, I can see them making a case. --Jerry >>
Jerry is right. When the Mint is clearly releasing legitimate coins and those coins are co-minged with illegitimate coins, the government does not go after the coins. This is one theory behind the government's lack of response over the 1933 eagles where there is conjecture that some coins were released improperly, but there's also documentation of legitimate releases so the legitimate and illegitimate coins cannot be distinguished.
In the case of the 1933 DEs, one theory is that there's no evidence of the Mint releasing any legitimate versions (aside from the Farouk specimen). If you can prove one or more legitimate releases, it might pave the way for others to be become legal, even if their provenance is questionable.
<< <i>It would be hard to prosecute, imagine the windfall of coins that have left the mint under suspicious circumstances!
I would think pattern collectors would be watching this very carefully, particularly the 1933 langbord trial. Who is to say the government won't declare the boxes of patterns given to William Woodin a null deal? >>
I don't think the ex-Snowden patterns are going back. At the time, the government made a big deal about the half unions Snowden sold to Woodin but didn't say anything about the boxes of patterns Snowden traded to get the half unions back. Snowden got his patterns through an arrangement with Andrews.
However, subsequent patterns like the 1974 aluminum cent are a different story.
Considering that the coins are only worth a buck a piece to the government, this wouldn't be a very good idea. Besides, it sounds like the Mint has already made their determination regarding "collusion".
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>How did this guy have access to the coin areas? >>
He was a Philadelphia Mint police officer and presumably the Mint needs security staff in the coin areas.
<< <i>"Sold stolen error coins to unwitting coin dealer"
Nothing surprises me anymore , that's the biggest pile of horse manure , unwitting my rear end. >>
While I might be inclined to agree with you, I also know for a fact that "most" error coin dealers have a supply channel.
It used to be error mules working directly out of the US Mints which accounts for some of the odd ball proof error coins we occasionally see.
It also used to be coin rolling companies that would simply save the error coins which jammed the rolling equipment. After a certain amount was collected, they'd get sold in bulk to the error dealers.
It could also be error collectors that do nothing but buy bagged coins. I know I've purchased a few bags or coins in the past hoping to come up with some type of error. Once enough are accumulated, then its off to the error dealer. Of course, this was probably prior to TPG's.
For error coins today, given the fact that the manufacturing equipment is much better than years past AND the fact the the US Mint keeps a sharp eye on those error coins, getting bulk errors is much harder than it used to be but not impossible. Error's do continue to slip through.
For these Missing Edge Lettering coins, think back to the Washington Dollar MEL's. There is one forum poster that purchased dang near 10 full $1,000 boxes of these! Would it have been suspicious of him to have sold them all to one dealer? (10,000 coins)
Unfortunately, all that seems plain and simple as presented by the news and "after the fact" public opinion, may not be so plain and simple.
I'd still like to know who the dealer was though.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>
<< <i>How did this guy have access to the coin areas?
Stolen Coins, but the US isnt going to go after these?
If the US claims that the 1933 Gold is stolen, then these Coins should be returned. >>
The question is, "how does the govt know that a specific coin is stolen or was accidentally released legitimately by the mint."
For the first few presidents, when the mint was clearly releasing errors, it would be impossible. But for later presidents, after the mint changed the process and I am not aware of ANY errors being found in rolls, I can see them making a case. --Jerry >>
I'm sorry Jerry, but the US Mint to this day, is still releasing missing edge letter dollar coins in rolls. US Mint wrapped rolls to be exact. Grover Cleveland (1st Term) MEL's have been found and graded. At least 5 so far.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>I'd still like to know who the dealer was though. >>
Tiny already answered your question with a quote from the article indicating Mike Byers purchased the coins.
Here's the quote again with a link to the firm's website.
<< <i>Gray identified the California coin firm to whom he sold the stolen error coins as Byers Numismatic Corp. The firm, owned by Michael S. Byers, is currently located in San Clemente, Calif. >>
Mike is also Publisher and Editor of Mint Error News Magazine. He's not being charged.
<< <i>
<< <i>I'd still like to know who the dealer was though. >>
Tiny already answer your question with a quote from the article indicating Mike Byers purchased the coins.
Here's the quote again with a link to the firm's website.
<< <i>Gray identified the California coin firm to whom he sold the stolen error coins as Byers Numismatic Corp. The firm, owned by Michael S. Byers, is currently located in San Clemente, Calif. >>
Mike is also Publisher and Editor of Mint Error News Magazine. He's not being charged. >>
I saw that after my post thank you very much.
As for Mike Byers.
He didn't just hop off the turnip truck so I feel confident that he felt his purchases were all above board with no idea that these were stolen from the US Mint.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>
<< <i>How did this guy have access to the coin areas? >>
He was a Philadelphia Mint police officer and presumably the Mint needs security staff in the coin areas. >>
When I went to the federal reserve in Houston, the rooms with money in them contained two employees. Each room was monitored by what looked like 20 Cameras.
The money was moved in radio controlled lock boxes that went into to the main storage vault. No human touched the money outside of that room.
How did this one single person have access to $10,000+ Dollar Coins over an extended time period with no one knowing if he didnt have a group of people helping.
I would bet money there are others that are in this too. Unfortionately, we will probably never know the truth.
Member, Society of Silver Dollar Collectors.
Looking for PCGS AU58+ 1901-P, 1896-O, & 1894-O
Box of 20
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>How did this guy have access to the coin areas? >>
He was a Philadelphia Mint police officer and presumably the Mint needs security staff in the coin areas. >>
When I went to the federal reserve in Houston, the rooms with money in them contained two employees. Each room was monitored by what looked like 20 Cameras.
The money was moved in radio controlled lock boxes that went into to the main storage vault. No human touched the money outside of that room.
How did this one single person have access to $10,000+ Dollar Coins over an extended time period with no one knowing if he didnt have a group of people helping.
I would bet money there are others that are in this too. Unfortionately, we will probably never know the truth. >>
You ar referring to the Federal Reserve not the US Mint.
The US Mint Police ARE the trusted employees of the mint and as such have trusted access.
From what I understand, the coins that were stolen were in a special holding area and were being held for destruction. In other words, they were garbage coins. Nobody guards their garbage but I'm guessing that the US Mint does now.
But again, all the suppositions presented so far does not address the MEL 1st Term Clevelands which have been plucked from US Mint rolls AND the MEL coins that have been found in Satin Finish Mint Sets AND Annual Dollar coin Sets.
Given the fact that there are, what, 1.7 BILLION Presidential Dollars being held in Federal Reserve Storage Vaults, there's really no telling how many are missing their edge lettering so the posse really oughta hold off on the accusations and incinuations. It is what it is and the government is satisfied with their investigations.
The name is LEE!
I just thought of something.
If a presidential dollar was missing the edge lettering, wouldn't the mint just run them through the lettering maching again? Maybe they weren't being held for destruction?
I researched when this subject first came up and found this:
So, he was removing them in small quantities from the "coining area", not an area where they were being held for destruction.
My bad.
BTW, the US Mint Police all carry weapons both on and off US Mint property so a metal detector would have been futile.
The name is LEE!
<< <i> I could see them taking back stock still held by the original dealer and compensating him if he is cleared of collusion
Considering that the coins are only worth a buck a piece to the government, this wouldn't be a very good idea. Besides, it sounds like the Mint has already made their determination regarding "collusion". >>
They could use the cash they confiscated from the thief. I think they got plenty.