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The Langbords vs. The Astronauts.

SkyManSkyMan Posts: 9,493 ✭✭✭✭✭
As most of you know, the Langbord's Double Eagle's were lost to the US Government. Obviously there were real questions as to whether the coins were obtained legitimately or not.

It helps if you are a public hero.

I've been chewing my nails for about two years now as the US Government was trying to take away items from Mercury/Gemini/Apollo era astronauts (and the people they had sold them to), saying that the (ex-NASA) era items were never "properly" given to the astronauts, so that in actuality the title to the items still resided with the US Govt.

It had been the tradition back in the 1960's and early 1970's that the Smithsonian got first dibs on anything it wanted. Whatever it didn't want the astronauts could claim and WERE GIVEN THEIR SUPERIOR'S UNWRITTEN BLESSINGS.

Last year Ed Mitchell, the lunar module (LM) pilot of Apollo 14, tried to auction off a camera (these sort of items had been previously auctioned off for decades with no issue). Furthermore, the camera had been designated to have been left in the LM upper stage which was then deliberately crashed into the Moon's surface when it undocked from the Command Module (CM), so the camera would have been destroyed if Mitchell hadn't saved it. Anyhow, the Feds claimed the camera once it had been listed in the auction catalogue. FWIW the camera would have most likely sold in the $50,000 - $75,000 range. Mitchell did not have the sort of money necessary to fight back given the amount the camera was worth.

The US Govt. then proceeded to get more and more aggressive in claw backs. That was capped off when late last year Jim Lovell, the Commander of Apollo 13, auctioned off the CM log of Apollo 13 dealing with the explosion. The log went for ~ $375,000, and AFTER THE SALE, the Feds went after the log. At that point various of the astronauts started talking to lawyers, politicians etc. Earlier this year, 2012, a bill was introduced into Congress to confirm the astronaut's possession of these items. This weekend past it was passed by the Senate (I'm not sure by what margin, but I expect pretty huge), it was passed UNANIMOUSLY by the Congress, and today it was signed into law by the President. Needless to say, IMO justice was done... of course, I have a financial interest in the astronaut's having retained title.

I do find it interesting how political pressure can affect collecting. I'm glad to see this one come out "right".

Comments

  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭
    .
    goodness. if stepping off of this planet and onto another heavenly body doesn't grant some leniency us mere mortals stand no chance!

    happy to see the legislation passed as well eventually
    .

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • derrybderryb Posts: 37,608 ✭✭✭✭✭
    good news and great report. Now I'm all ears with "of course, I have a financial interest in the astronaut's having retained title."

    Tell us more, are you associated with the space program?

    No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left

  • SanctionIISanctionII Posts: 12,550 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Great news Sy.

    Hopefully you can keep your space memorabilia collection and add to it in the future with greater security in the knowledge that they are "your property" instead of "public property".
  • scotty1419scotty1419 Posts: 930 ✭✭✭
    Any news on how this might affect previous clawbacks? Will the recent ones and your examples stand?
  • SaorAlbaSaorAlba Posts: 7,593 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If the government wanted possession they should have never let the astronauts take it and keep it in the first place.
    Tir nam beann, nan gleann, s'nan gaisgeach ~ Saorstat Albanaich a nis!
  • AuroraBorealisAuroraBorealis Posts: 3,591 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That is great news SY! I hate that when a government entity has literally a license to steal... I am glad to hear there was common sense used on behalf of those special individuals who risked so much... Kudos to congress and the man...

    ABimage
  • LindeDadLindeDad Posts: 18,766 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Well glad that I can keep my ammo cans I bought back from my trip for Uncle Sam.
    Used it as a camera case back then.
    image
  • MidLifeCrisisMidLifeCrisis Posts: 10,550 ✭✭✭✭✭
    image
  • Wolf359Wolf359 Posts: 7,663 ✭✭✭
    So Congress passed a law to stop thievery. Justice will truly be done when anyone who pursued these clawbacks on the Government side are fired and their pensions are forfeit.
  • CoinosaurusCoinosaurus Posts: 9,644 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Kinda hard to vote against astronauts.....
  • SkyManSkyMan Posts: 9,493 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>good news and great report. Now I'm all ears with "of course, I have a financial interest in the astronaut's having retained title."

    Tell us more, are you associated with the space program? >>



    Derryb, I am not officially associated with the space program, although I have worked for NASA in the past, and I do have a Ph.D. specializing in satellite imagery (like the stuff you see in Google Maps).

    I don't know if you've seen any of my space memorabilia posts/threads. Do a search on threads with "Skyman" in the title. Any of the threads that I start that have "Skyman" in the title show various pieces of my space memorabilia collection. Items in my collection that potentially could have been clawed back included the Gemini 11 Procedures book (basically a book that tells the astronauts in a step by step manner how to do whatever it is they are supposed to do), Buzz Aldrin's flashlight from Gemini 12, a utility light from the Apollo 9 LM, an Apollo 9 eyepatch used while viewing through the "sextant" (also for dark adaptation for the eye), a page from the log of Apollo 11, bread that flew on Apollo 12, the Direct Ascent Rendezvous Chart (DAC) for Apollo 16 (one of only 4 DAC charts in existence TOTAL from the Apollo program, 2 of which are in museums), and a portion of the Apollo 17 Lunar Rover troubleshooting checklist. All the previous mentioned items are "Flown" item. Another item I have that was potentially up for claw back was not flown, but to the best of my knowledge it is the ONLY item that was used in the Command Module on EVERY Apollo flight. It was a lock that covered up the emergency switches for the escape rocket. Unlocking it and handing it through the hatch was literally the last thing the commander did on his checklist before the hatch was closed.





    As to the items I mentioned in the beginning post, Mitchell and the Feds came to an agreement that he would "donate" the camera to the Smithsonian (which he did last year). He is basically excrement out of luck with regards to getting it back, but from a conversation I had with him in June he believes he can now at least claim it as a charitable donation.

    Lovell's piece never did get officially taken, as it was the "final" straw for the astronauts, and very soon thereafter is when the bill that just became law was introduced into Congress. At that point the Feds held off to find out what the end result would be.
  • mrpotatoheaddmrpotatoheadd Posts: 7,576 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Kinda hard to vote against astronauts..... >>

    Good for the astronauts, but what about the rest of us?

    image
  • WillieBoyd2WillieBoyd2 Posts: 5,266 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I don't remember Sally Ride having sticky fingers.

    image
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  • SkyManSkyMan Posts: 9,493 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I don't remember Sally Ride having sticky fingers.

    image >>



    The rules had changed by the time SR rode. Basically the ONLY thing shuttle era astronauts could keep were items they brought along with them (up to 25 small items, with a total weight limit, carried in a small bag). One of the things that were SPECIFICALLY NOT ALLOWED ON SHUTTLES were coins (except, of course, when promoted by the Government).
  • RaufusRaufus Posts: 6,836 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Great post!

    I think that a lot of what motivated the Govt in the Langord case was an obligation in the govt's eyes to the buyer of the King Farouk (sp?) coin at over $7M.

    For a very brief time a week or so ago Neil Armstrong's gloves and helmet visor from his moon walk were on display at the Udvar Hazy Center which I'm fortunate to live near. While looking at it my wife and I discussed whether or not the govt would have taken them had he kept them and what they would bring at a Heritage Americana Auction.

    I have to say, that it was so cool to see them. Such amazing pieces of history. It was cool to see how most people respected them. Even w/o a sign, no one that I saw used flash photography as they were in an unlit case and folks correctly figured out that the less light exposure the better.

    So glad that the astronauts won this one!!
    Land of the Free because of the Brave!
  • SaorAlbaSaorAlba Posts: 7,593 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I wouldn't mind sending a couple of the idiot bureaucraps that pursued these astronauts up on a flaming missile that just might could blow up.
    Tir nam beann, nan gleann, s'nan gaisgeach ~ Saorstat Albanaich a nis!
  • Great post. Thanks for sharing, and it seems the government got one right.

    But at the same time, the government set a precedent that disputes of this nature require an act of Congress to be resolved in the individuals favor. They are basically making the case that absent the act of Congress, all of these (and any related items in other fields), remain the property of the Federal government. Astronauts can garner the type of support that this would require, but I doubt many other groups or individual could.


    merse

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,401 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Here's some info on HR 4158 (emphasis mine).

    Perhaps the Langbords should be contacting Rep Ralph Hall for a bill of their own?



    << <i>H.R. 4158
    To confirm full ownership rights for certain United States astronauts to artifacts from the astronauts'' space missions
    Sponsor Rep. Hall, Ralph
    Date September 18, 2012 (112th Congress, 2nd Session)
    Staff Contact Sarah Makin

    On Wednesday, September 19, 2012, the House is scheduled to consider H.R. 4158, a bill that would confirm full ownership rights for certain United States astronauts to artifacts from the astronauts' space missions, under a suspension of the rules requiring a two-thirds majority vote for approval. The bill was introduced on March 7, 2012, by Rep. Ralph Hall (R-TX) and referred to the Committee on Science and Technology.

    H.R. 4158 would confirm that Astronauts who flew in the Mercury, Gemini and Apollo programs, who received an artifact, momento, or hardware during his participation, should have full ownership of and clear title to the artifact. The bill would also state that the federal government has no claim or right to ownership, control, or use of any artifact in possession of an eligible astronaut, or of any artifact that was subsequently transferred, sold, or assigned to a third party.

    The bill would define “artifact” as any expendable item utilized by an astronaut in missions for the Mercury, Gemini or Apollo programs, through the Apollo-Soyuz Test Project, that was not expressly required to be returned to NASA at the end of the mission, and other expendable, disposable, or personal-use items used in the program. The bill states that this would include personal logs, checklists, flight manuals, prototype and proof test articles used in training, and disposable flight hardware salvaged from jettisoned lunar modules.

    The bill would specifically exclude lunar rocks and material from the definition of artifacts that astronauts would be entitled to keep.

    Throughout the Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo programs (including Skylab and the Apollo-Soyuz Test Project), NASA managers routinely allowed astronauts, at the conclusion of a mission, to keep mementos, pieces of hardware, and personal equipment (e.g., space suit emblems, food, hand controllers, and checklists) from the spacecraft. In some cases, these artifacts have been in the possession of an astronaut for almost forty years. Beginning in the mid-2000s, NASA began to challenge the ownership of these artifacts by Apollo-era astronauts in some cases. As a result of the actions by NASA, rightful ownership of artifacts still in the astronauts’ possession – as well as those donated to colleges and museums, transferred to family members, or privately sold – has been brought into question, exposing astronauts to possible (and significant) damages if ownership is not clearly established.

    The Congressional Budget Office (CBO) estimates that implementing H.R. 4158 would have no significant impact on the federal budget. >>

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