Why I sleep good at night and why some dealers become crooks!
amwldcoin
Posts: 11,269 ✭✭✭✭✭
I recently did business...purchased a collection from a widow. Almost all of her stuff was silver and dreck. Well....there was a 16-D dime and a 3 legger that were nice. The 16-D was on the fence of VF and weather it would be nailed as cleaned. Before we even started looking I told here she would be better off selling everything as a group rather than letting someone purchase her better coins as she would be stuck with the crap. Well...I though we had a deal as I told her what I would pay....I sent the 3 legger and 16-D to PCGS...they came back as I hoped. She flipped the senario on me and now will not sell the 2 coins to me. She was offered $1700 for the 16-D...I could have bought right then and there for 2K. Sometimes it is hard to hold the straight line.....But I will...and the greedy woman is selling me out for a couple hundred! I made minimum wage and travel expenses after all was said and done.
What would you do in this situation?
What would you do in this situation?
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Comments
<< <i>What would you do in this situation? >>
remove the coins from the slabs and give them back to her.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
In your case, as a dealer, I would do the same as you did but add reasonable fees for the work done (travel expenses and time) and offer to not charge if she did end up selling to me. If not selling to me, then I would be owed that amount.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
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<< <i>What would you do in this situation? >>
remove the coins from the slabs and give them back to her. >>
He said he made minimum wage and travel expenses after all was said and done, so I take that to mean she ended up paying for the slabbing.
As such, if she did pay the fees, and didn't stiff him, then your response is totally irresponsible whether or not she went elsewhere.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>What would you do in this situation? >>
Not sure what I would do, but I'll tell you what I wouldn't do: I wouldn't refer to a client on an internet forum as a "witch."
That's the first thing I would not do. Stay classy, champ.
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<< <i>What would you do in this situation? >>
Not sure what I would do, but I'll tell you what I wouldn't do: I wouldn't refer to a client on an internet forum as a "witch."
That's the first thing I would not do. Stay classy, champ. >>
Yeah! You got me there!
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<< <i>What would you do in this situation? >>
remove the coins from the slabs and give them back to her. >>
LOL...That's what my wife told me to do...but alas...I would not.
i've surprisingly heard this scenario on this forum before. didn't expect that at all.
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<< <i>I am not a dealer, but I have helped out some folks.
In your case, as a dealer, I would do the same as you did but add reasonable fees for the work done (travel expenses and time) and offer to not charge if she did end up selling to me. If not selling to me, then I would be owed that amount. >>
I guess the old school verbal agreement is out these days...I only made her a cool grand+ over what she was willing to accept.
<< <i>why some dealers become crooks! >>
What would I do? First I wouldn't think any excuse is good enough to be a crook just because a deal doesn't go as hoped.
Second......
<< <i>and the witch is selling me out for a couple hundred >>
I wouldn't be calling her a witch. At least not in public.
Oh, what would I do? Probably just move on as that looks like that's all there is to do.
<< <i>
<< <i>why some dealers become crooks! >>
What would I do? First I wouldn't think any excuse is good enough to be a crook just because a deal doesn't go as hoped.
Second......
<< <i>and the witch is selling me out for a couple hundred >>
I wouldn't be calling her a witch. At least not in public.
Oh, what would I do? Probably just move on as that looks like that's all there is to do. >>
And that is exactly what I have done! Yeah...shouldn't have called her a witch...guess I'll change that!
One final thought: I tend to believe in karma so if the owner offers the items at a price far below what would otherwise be reasonable, you should counter with a better offer. I've done this before and have certainly felt better even if I've lost a few bucks in the process.
It's interesting, because what happened to the OP has happened to each of them more than once. They'll offer to buy a collection, but will want to send in a couple of the more valuable coins to PCGS first. Once they come back as real, in EVERY case, the customer decides to keep that coin.
In the last 2 months I've sent in (for my friends) an 1893-S Morgan, a 1937-D 3-leg nickel, and a 1916 Standing Liberty Quarter. Each of their customers decided not to sell when they saw their coins in PCGS plastic and knew they had something decent.
One of the big lessons here is that full-time dealers in a situation like this know that he who hesitates is lost. They'll use their knowledge, make the call on grade/authenticity/cleaning, and put their money on the table then and there. You make a fair offer, but you leave plenty of upside as payment for the risk you are taking.
See, this is why coin forum members drink.
Reading about other members getting hosed.
Hang in there.
"Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working" Pablo Picasso
<< <i>This is a tough one. I've had similar problems when dealing with the (how should I put this) "uninformed". If you tell them they have something valuable, they suddenly get cold feet and decide to keep the item or else shop it around. I guess your best bet is to ask what they want for the collection and then counter if they're being unreasonable. Answer their questions honestly, but don't volunteer information beyond what they ask. There's a lot of information easily available so if they don't wish to educate themselves I don't believe you're under any obligation to share your years of experience without a fee or without having some sort of agreement in place.
One final thought: I tend to believe in karma so if the owner offers the items at a price far below what would otherwise be reasonable, you should counter with a better offer. I've done this before and have certainly felt better even if I've lost a few bucks in the process. >>
I will not be suprised if it ends up on ebay and after the ebay fees she will have been better off to accept my offer which I did raise! She will not even tell me what she would take for them! What peeves me is I paid her top dollar for the other stuff so I could buy these 2 coins...my profit for a days work after the traveling. A close dealer friend of mine says I should just send her a check for the agreed upon price and be done. Fortunately I value my reputation more.
type2,CCHunter.
<< <i>One of the big lessons here is that full-time dealers in a situation like this know that he who hesitates is lost. They'll use their knowledge, make the call on grade/authenticity/cleaning, and put their money on the table then and there. You make a fair offer, but you leave plenty of upside as payment for the risk you are taking. >>
<< <i>I have a couple of friends who dabble as weekend coin dealers. They like to buy small collections and set up at small coin shows.
It's interesting, because what happened to the OP has happened to each of them more than once. They'll offer to buy a collection, but will want to send in a couple of the more valuable coins to PCGS first. Once they come back as real, in EVERY case, the customer decides to keep that coin.
In the last 2 months I've sent in (for my friends) an 1893-S Morgan, a 1937-D 3-leg nickel, and a 1916 Standing Liberty Quarter. Each of their customers decided not to sell when they saw their coins in PCGS plastic and knew they had something decent.
One of the big lessons here is that full-time dealers in a situation like this know that he who hesitates is lost. They'll use their knowledge, make the call on grade/authenticity/cleaning, and put their money on the table then and there. You make a fair offer, but you leave plenty of upside as payment for the risk you are taking. >>
Well...I felt sorry for her....was willing to maximize her holdings. What I should have done was bought the coin for 2K and suprised her with another thousand if it came back as I hoped. I have done this before....don't know why I didn't this time.
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>Oh brother.
See, this is why coin forum members drink.
Reading about other members getting hosed.
Hang in there.
I have a
<< <i>I wonder how the story would have ended if they would have come back as a lower grade or in a problem holder? The coins did become more valuable as soon as they were slabbed. That was the goal wasn't it? I'm not sure that I fault the widow for her indecision now.Tough call. MJ >>
The 16-D would have come back in 1 of 3 ways in my opinion...net graded to a 15 due to rarity....a VF details 92...or a VF. The coin is very acceptable but has definately been dipped at some point during it's history.
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>Well...I though we had a deal as I told her what I would pay....I sent the 3 legger and 16-D to PCGS...they came back as I hoped. >>
Was your offer based on what you would pay before or after slabbing?
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<< <i>Well...I though we had a deal as I told her what I would pay....I sent the 3 legger and 16-D to PCGS...they came back as I hoped. >>
Was your offer based on what you would pay before or after slabbing? >>
AFTER!
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
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<< <i>
<< <i>Well...I though we had a deal as I told her what I would pay....I sent the 3 legger and 16-D to PCGS...they came back as I hoped. >>
Was your offer based on what you would pay before or after slabbing? >>
AFTER! >>
OK then. Was it based on specified grading results?
Kove gave the answer I think you needed to hear...even if you don't like it.
<< <i>One of the big lessons here is that full-time dealers in a situation like this know that he who hesitates is lost. They'll use their knowledge, make the call on grade/authenticity/cleaning, and put their money on the table then and there. You make a fair offer, but you leave plenty of upside as payment for the risk you are taking. >>
If I were you, I'd move on...and next time I'd be better prepared to make an offer and finalize the deal on the spot.
I have similar situations with bank customers--people go to the local banks and try to deposit morgans, gold, $500 bills--and the staff politely informs them that the items are worth more, and to take them over to my shop where I can evaluate them. It made the bank tellers feel great by being advisors, and I would be able to assist customers get more than face value--in every instance, the people came in, after speaking with others--and in every case the others informed them that their coins or currency was worth X amount--the X amount being if the items were mint state. So now, my offers look pale for their ripped, taped bills, or used worn silver--and they dont trust the bank, now they dont trust me, and it all just becomes a cluster****. So, I told the bank tellers, just let the customers do as they will, the tellers will do as they have always done and buy any items in their till at face value and come down to the shop.
SOME people dont handle information well.
<< <i>Thankfully, I have never had this happen to me. However, I don't think it would bother me enough to start a thread about it if it did. >>
LOL! Would you just pay the 2K and be done with it? I am really curious about the mentality in the coin business today.
I'll through a different senario out there that happened to me. I bought a better date seated 1/2 a while back in a multiple coin trade. It turned out the seated 1/2 was bringing much stronger prices at auction than I realized. Well...I consigned the coin to a major dealer who posted it on their website for way more than I paid...and I did well. The person I bought it from saw it listed and immediately called me wanting the coin back! Well...turned out another world coin I bought from him in the trade....an earlier ducat in MS I looked up wrong! I had hung myself for the difference because the ducat prices ended at the bottom of the page and became 2 ducats on the next column.....which effectively cancelled out the gain on the 1/2. I was all gung ho to send him a check...but luckily I caught my error before a I did! I sent him an email stating 1 mistake cnacels out another! He new he hung me with that ducat...and we still do business today!
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<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Well...I though we had a deal as I told her what I would pay....I sent the 3 legger and 16-D to PCGS...they came back as I hoped. >>
Was your offer based on what you would pay before or after slabbing? >>
AFTER! >>
OK then. Was it based on specified grading results? >>
Of Course! If it comes back this I'll pay you this,etc.
<< <i>As an interested neighbor who is willing to dabble, advising on "gee, i think thats a rare coin" is one thing. Making an accurate assessment of the contents of a collection is another. It means you have made investments in time, education, skill sets. I would have made an assessment of the collection and made an offer. She called you so you could make her an assessment and an offer--you played the good Samaritan and changed yourself from a professional to a neighbor offering assistance--and she decided to take the middle man out of the equation. I know one gentle man who charges 10% of the assessed value of the collection as a service charge if he goes out to a clients house and they decide not to sell. Im not saying its right, but they know up front, he means business, he isnt there to drink coffee and chat.
I have similar situations with bank customers--people go to the local banks and try to deposit morgans, gold, $500 bills--and the staff politely informs them that the items are worth more, and to take them over to my shop where I can evaluate them. It made the bank tellers feel great by being advisors, and I would be able to assist customers get more than face value--in every instance, the people came in, after speaking with others--and in every case the others informed them that their coins or currency was worth X amount--the X amount being if the items were mint state. So now, my offers look pale for their ripped, taped bills, or used worn silver--and they dont trust the bank, now they dont trust me, and it all just becomes a cluster****. So, I told the bank tellers, just let the customers do as they will, the tellers will do as they have always done and buy any items in their till at face value and come down to the shop.
SOME people dont handle information well. >>
Well...I thought I was being professional...there have been no ill words between myself anf the widow...other than the fact we had a deal and I paid her top dollar...and I mean top dollar for her other stuff. If she has no luck selling she will call me.I have been doing this for over 15 years and have never had this happen to me!
If you really want to waste your time try being in the timber business! You are lucky to get 1 tract out of 10 you try to buy! 1 tract is a minimum of a days work...usually more! That is the worst business to keep a clean rep in and I did for over 10 years until I quit!
<< <i>Of Course! If it comes back this I'll pay you this,etc. >>
You were dealing with a cheat then. Not much you can do about it after the fact, unfortunately.
edited to add...
<< <i>other than the fact we had a deal and I paid her top dollar...and I mean top dollar for her other stuff. >>
You bought the other stuff?
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<< <i>Of Course! If it comes back this I'll pay you this,etc. >>
You were dealing with a cheat then. Not much you can do about it after the fact, unfortunately.
edited to add...
<< <i>other than the fact we had a deal and I paid her top dollar...and I mean top dollar for her other stuff. >>
You bought the other stuff? >>
LOL! Yes I did....the dreck and silver! I made 1Xface on the silver....which I paid at least 2 times more face than the locals were paying...and have alot of crap I will probably spend!
Edit to add...I don't think I was dealing with a cheat...just a tough woman trying to get the last dime!
<< <i>LOL! Yes I did....the dreck and silver! I made 1Xface on the silver....which I paid at least 2 times more face than the locals were paying...and have alot of crap I will probably spend! >>
If it were me, I'd have told her she could just keep everything and find another buyer if she was going to insist on going back on her agreement to sell.
<< <i>One of the big lessons here is that full-time dealers in a situation like this know that he who hesitates is lost. They'll use their knowledge, make the call on grade/authenticity/cleaning, and put their money on the table then and there. You make a fair offer, but you leave plenty of upside as payment for the risk you are taking. >>
Bingo! Evaluate the collection and make a fair offer. If you buy the collection, then worry about getting the key date coins slabbed. If you're not sure of the authenticity of a key date, buy it cheap and if it slabs, you can always send the seller some more money.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Thankfully, I have never had this happen to me. However, I don't think it would bother me enough to start a thread about it if it did. >>
I think it would bother me greatly if I spent my time, knowledge and effort trying to help someone out only to be taken advantage of.
Edited to add: And I'm really glad the OP did start this thread, lots of really good, thoughtful responses here.
My icon IS my coin. It is a gem 1949 FBL Franklin.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Bottom line:You flipped the greed switch on by sending the two good coins to PCGS for her.Do PCGS for yourself.
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
<< <i>Sleeping soundly cannot be overstated as a psychological benefit of doing the right thing; can you imagine how the rip off artists try to cope with the anxiety that comes with ripping people off? >>
Always wondered about this. I guess after awhile they just get used to it. If one is a person of scruples, you're better off to make em an offer that they'll take and write another check later if the deal works out better for you.
One of the big lessons here is that full-time dealers in a situation like this know that he who hesitates is lost. They'll use their knowledge, make the call on grade/authenticity/cleaning, and put their money on the table then and there. You make a fair offer, but you leave plenty of upside as payment for the risk you are taking. >>
If you can't evaluate coins on the fly then don't bother doing this. Find another way to buy coins.
I too, would not be comfortable selling my coins to someone that has to get a second opinion on them.
(that's what they think when you send their coins off for grading).
bob
Like lance said this issue has come up on the forum a few times.A good way to go would be to have a signed service contract that spells out minimal fees for the time and expertise used in "helping out" in a case like this.Even if its a "little old lady" who needs help.sorry if that sounds cold but it would address most of the concerns brought out in this thread.
In 1979 when we first opened, it took less than a week to discover that educating a neophyte ....USUALLY..... results in their KEEPING the "valuable" ones in the "human nature" miasma of not letting anyone else have something.... "GOOD."
You learn VERY quickly to "lot price."
Not trying to be harsh. It sucks, I've been there before, but that is just the way the biz is...and always will be.
John
siliconvalleycoins.com
In the end, the only one here that short-sold you is you.
Empty Nest Collection
You'll be a hero that way and get the deal. A friend of mine did this same thing on a piece of territorial gold that the seller thought was fake and was ready to dump for a song. He
researched it, paid for PCGS grading, and got a $20K hard offer from Heritage for the coin. Once the seller had the coin back in their hands they disappeared and didn't repay my friend
a cent for his efforts. I think this is why many or most coin dealers just buy at the best price they can and move on. You'll miss a lot of good deals if you try to be the customer's friend
and give them 100% disclosure. It will only be used against you when they later shop it around.