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1928 Chinese Auto dollar (advice please, is it real!)
Zerox
Posts: 23
I was at an auction yesterday and I bought a box of coins and a few notes for a very small price. I for some reason was drawn to then box, and had to bid until I won. (there were 4 very good UK crowns and one very poor one, also in it where some 1950/60's silver sixpences so I though it was worth buying for my bid hoping to just about get my money back and maybe a little more, I'll be honest it was a total leap of faith, knowing nothing really about there values.
However after geting home and rumagging through not to many coins (a lot where bent and mishapped!) also some have a copper growth on them, and one of the crowns looked very tarnished I found 3 older coin that where clearly not crowns and yes one is a auto Dollar
I've of course done a lot of research on the coins in the last 24 hours, I actually got to bed at 4am today! and I keep trying to prove this is not a genuine auto dollar but it just keeps passing muster.
the other silver coins were a 1883 silver dollar ,and a chinese dragon dollar
from the box, I have a feeling they have been in there for a long time, there was nothing of value in the lot to indicate there was anything that was rare I just bid on a gut feeling I didn't even really look or notice these and nor did anyone else, but I did get bid up a little, but I'm not talking lots!!! (sub $20 dollars) it was only when I got home I found about the silver coins and my son actually came down after finding out what the auto dollar was!
I know you'll have some questions to help judge this, so far the coins come up as 26grams on poor scales (thats all 3) I don't have a set to go finer, the coins are not metalic in any form and have a warm comfortable feel like old silver does. all three also pass the ping test, ie the ring when tapped lightly with one of the others. the dragon has the small 2 and space from the rim like the originals do so I'm really on tenterhooks here.
Some pictures of the auto dollar the black is thick and can be rubbed off, it not dirt like mud, but more like grim ie a build up of a 100+ years I'm hoping.
the strange this is the 1883 silver dollar seems to validate the ages of the others, were all three put together long ago the rest of the coins where from the 60's
Also the auction was just a small villiage auction no dealers etc
so what do you think did I get very lucky, or did I waste a nights sleep!
Yours views and comments will certain be welcomed
Thanks
Dave
However after geting home and rumagging through not to many coins (a lot where bent and mishapped!) also some have a copper growth on them, and one of the crowns looked very tarnished I found 3 older coin that where clearly not crowns and yes one is a auto Dollar
I've of course done a lot of research on the coins in the last 24 hours, I actually got to bed at 4am today! and I keep trying to prove this is not a genuine auto dollar but it just keeps passing muster.
the other silver coins were a 1883 silver dollar ,and a chinese dragon dollar
from the box, I have a feeling they have been in there for a long time, there was nothing of value in the lot to indicate there was anything that was rare I just bid on a gut feeling I didn't even really look or notice these and nor did anyone else, but I did get bid up a little, but I'm not talking lots!!! (sub $20 dollars) it was only when I got home I found about the silver coins and my son actually came down after finding out what the auto dollar was!
I know you'll have some questions to help judge this, so far the coins come up as 26grams on poor scales (thats all 3) I don't have a set to go finer, the coins are not metalic in any form and have a warm comfortable feel like old silver does. all three also pass the ping test, ie the ring when tapped lightly with one of the others. the dragon has the small 2 and space from the rim like the originals do so I'm really on tenterhooks here.
Some pictures of the auto dollar the black is thick and can be rubbed off, it not dirt like mud, but more like grim ie a build up of a 100+ years I'm hoping.
the strange this is the 1883 silver dollar seems to validate the ages of the others, were all three put together long ago the rest of the coins where from the 60's
Also the auction was just a small villiage auction no dealers etc
so what do you think did I get very lucky, or did I waste a nights sleep!
Yours views and comments will certain be welcomed
Thanks
Dave
0
Comments
this is the edges of the coins.
the auto dollar left, the silver US dollar, and then the chinese one
Many thanks in advance guys
Dave
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Eeeek.. you don't want to do that Dave , whatever you do don't try and clean or rub any coin.Think of each rub as erasing another zero off the end of the value
REAL China Dollar
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<< <i>what are the dates of the UK crowns? >>
nothing special 3 x 1977 1 x Charles and diana, 1 x Queen mum 100 years.
Thanks
Dave
ie just a term of phrase, sorry
Dave
<< <i>It's also a good idea to try the magnet test with coins that appear to be old Chinese coins , if your auto dollar passes that your a step closer , good luck with them all Dave >>
I tried to say magnetic and typed metalic! Doh
Yes non of the coins are megnetic and all pass the ping test. ie balanced of a index finger and tapped with one of the others they ring over hearing a dull thud!
Dave
<< <i>"pictures of the auto dollar the black is thick and can be rubbed off, it not dirt like mud, but more like grim ie a build up of a 100+ years I'm hoping. "
Eeeek.. you don't want to do that Dave , whatever you do don't try and clean or rub any coin.Think of each rub as erasing another zero off the end of the value >>
yep well aware of that so hence not getting the brasso (metal cleaner) out, lol only did a very small area.
<< <i>The rear end and tire are out of proportion to a real china car, your tires are TOO round,, I would strongly suspect that one is fake. Chinese have gotten very good at imitation "AGE" on coins they fake.
REAL China Dollar >>
firstly Boz thanks, your the first to cast real dout on these.
I agree my tires look too round and the gap on the rear wheel arch is greater than the example you give. (but that does not mean this might not be genuine? ie 640,000+ where struck and we have no guidance or information on the net, ie the dies could have been reworked over time! (ie the gap increased and the shape of the tyre affected.
@, i'd come up spelling of roses! and having collected stamps for a long while, I know you can get many differences in the same stamp, and I presume coins can be very much the same, especially older ones like these.
believe me I don't wish to proof it a fake, but I'm happy to accept it could be, but some things just don't add up as to it being a fake. ie the 1883 sliver dollar is not a rare coin, so why fake it, ie the Carson city one is more valuable, and as the one I have seems to be silver (non metalic, and ping tests) the value of the silver is about what the coin is worth, so why fake it?
The dragon dollar seems to stand up to inspection i've checked it carefully on many sites, and it has the smaller two and the working is evenly spaced from the rim, two faults of the copies so it seems to pass muster, ie could be fake but again it not worth masses so if I had found that and the silver dollar alone I would believe there genuine, but I know they need validation.
The coins in the box, were the Queen Mum Crown, dated 1980, Silver Jubilee crowns of 1977 and a Charles and Diana 1981, there were in a nice small but solid well made leather case (which I'll date about 1960 to 1970) and there was old and new coins (in total probably 100 to 150) the notes were 3 sheckle values 1, 1, and 5, from the 1950, two Japanese Goverment cent notes, and a note from Thiland 10 runt!) the coins pennys were from 1913 and mosly bent but the box has coins from europe and the far east about 1970-80 So my personal view, is this box has been in a cupboard for the best part of 30 years, and as I said this was just a small village auction, it looked like the stuff had come from a house clearance, and a lot of stuff seemed to date 1970, like the box. (so I just have a gut feeling these coins have been in there since the 1970's) and would they have been making fake coins at that time?
on the Auto dollar, on one forum I read the truth is in the detail being crisp and sharp, and believe me I've looked at a lot of fakes, the lettering seems bigger and my writing is more petite and very simular, to originals I will admit the tyres are the first doubt I've had on this and I agree mine are more rounded and not like your example. but for now I'm not going to rule out reworks to the die causing that, ie there no way at present the difference is not acceptable (or explainable)
So that my reasoning, ie
They feel like silver coins
they all seem to have been in the box since at least 1970's
why have a fake 1883 silver US dollar when it's value in silver is not worth the effort of faking it
they all are none magnetic
they all come up as 26 grams (on kitchen scales) the coins are 25.8 or something I believe
they all pass the ping test
the edges of the coins are not square, at first I though they where, but there not under photographs you can see they are worn.
Believe me no one thinks more than me that this is a fake, but why be with two other coins I believe are genuine? only time is going to tell, ie when someone that truely knows these coins can say yes or no. (any ideas)
Thanks in advance
Dave
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Thanks for your help and comments, I'm really grateful for you all your help advice and comments
okay firstly this is on ebay at present, is it a fake http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1928-China-Kwei-Chow-Auto-Dollar-ICG-AU-50-RARE-/261089108788?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item3cca1fa334
the guy seems to have it certified (AU50) what ever that means and at £8.5K it a bloody expensive fake!
The ebay one and mine side by side.
this is the real one (as per your link and mine side by side
And then yours and mine side buy side
Lastly I know it a duff picture but mine along side the auctioned one
the tyre at the back look simular in shape.
your views and comments are valued!
Cheers
Dave
PS just out of interest what did you pay for your fake! (and I bet I paid less!) LOL
China makes Fake TPC holders also.
Thanks Dan.
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<< <i>Is yours missing the dot in the headlight or is it just as dark as the lower area? only difference I can see in really, however Im no expert on these. >>
hi jinx (Sorry I could not refuse that pun!)
yes the dots are there but there are differences, if you look at my writing it crisper
here the ebay coin and mine and noted differences and also BOZ and mine (I hope he doesn;t mind me calling him that, and I do know what a Boz pod is, if that part of your name mate!)
hopefully they will show up together so they can all be seen on one screen!
Dave
<< <i>I paid $50 for mine. I strongly recommend a trip to the TPC for verification. To be perfectly Honest,, you photos really make it hard to make it definitive.
China makes Fake TPC holders also.
Thanks Dan. >>
Dan
I'm truly grateful for your input, thoughts and views, so thank you
I agree I find things on both your and the one on ebay that are not the same to hard to call.
to be honest mate I'm thinking there fake but hoping there real, this is the three silver coins
Sorry not a great picture.
and this was the total haul
Dave
PS you would have lost! I paid a Tenner, + £1.50 commission and handling fees £11.50 total. so I've not lost anything if it was fake. (just luck, if it, turns out t be real!)
<< <i>
China makes Fake TPC holders also.
>>
LOL now why does that not suprize me!
Dan thanks mate, but newbie, so whats TPC where will I find them and whats the going rate.
Anything else you advise me doing (or not doing)
Cheers thanks again for your help
Dave
<< <i>Id highly reccommend you get nice clear pics of that silver dollar and post them over on the US coin forum Dave , i'm anything but expert on those but we do have the best of the best over there who can spot a fake at 20 paces and i hate to say it but at first glance the eagle doesnt look right. >>
Thanks James
Good Idea. I'm just uploading some pictures now. the eagles breast is very rubbed the back is much better and the details is certainly finer on there than the front of the coin sadly but heres the pictures, see for yourself, and I will copy this post to the US coin section too.
Also I did check the head position, with the eagle upright, the face is upside down when flipped over (ie 180 degrees to each other)
Thanks again
Dave
and
More pictures here if you wish to view different ones
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/24192306
Thanks Dave
Seeing your coin clearly,, I am Positive it is fake.. The coin in your link has been removed from ebay.....suspicious.
That area of the rear window should not have anything in it,, yet it has the same diagonal line running top left to bottom middle of the window, and the Pimple over the front roof area. In addition there is a depression to the left of the top inner character that is on Mine also. They are not present on the coin in the slab. These are telltale marking of Counterfeits on any coin.
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OH BUMMER,,, get your eyes checked BOZ,,, that the wrong denomination
Oh well, its a nice pic and I will leave it here for anyone that wants to see another size.
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Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>Definite fakes in the OP- >>
Thanks
As I said I paid a tenner for the who lot, so I'm not down Hundreds of pounds!!!
thanks for info guys, I will continue to read and monitor the thread!!!
Dave