Question to PCGS: Why can't OGH labels be reused for coins being cracked out for TrueViews ?

WingedLiberty1957 · September 10, 2012 3:27AM

I love PCGS's out-of-the-slab TrueView photography service. And typically submit colorfully toned PCGS graded coins back to PCGS to be cracked out, photographed, and then reholdered.

My dilemma comes in when I buy a colorfully toned PCGS-slabbed coin in an Old Green Holder (OGH).

I know that OGH's seem to add a premium (I think somewhat due to upgrade potential) and I also know there are some collectors that almost exclusively buy OGH coins. The reason being is it shows the color as being stable for a long time since the OGH "dates" the slabbing as having occurred many years ago.

My question to PCGS is ...

Why can't I have the Old Green Label reused in the new slab when I have a coin cracked out for a TrueView photo? After all the coin was under PCGS's control when it was freed from the plastic and they are sure nothing was done to the coin in that short amount of time. Also the Old Green Labels are the same size as the blue labels, so it would fit in the new holder with no mods.

So why do I (we) have to lose the OGH when we have coins TrueView photographed and reholdered?

I think I recall someone at PCGS telling me that the old green labels are actually physically destroyed and can't even be returned to you (as is done with NGC labels on crossover coins, which are returned to you).

I don't understand this policy. Why would PCGS want to destroy the old green labels?

Here is the latest coin that I have to make this difficult decision on ...

So I have to choose between keeping the OGH or having a great TrueView photo made.

As an aside ... I think I recall hearing that the coin can be photographed through the slab in the TrueView service (and therefore the old green label saved), however these through-the-slab photos never seem to turn out as good since you are dealing with slab glare and cannot always optimize the color. And with old slabs there are often slab plastic flaws (scratches) that mar the photo.

Zoins · September 10, 2012 3:29AM

It needs to make sense from a business perspective.

Would you pay a premium for the extra handling involved in keeping track of and handling the labels?

If so, what price would you pay?

WingedLiberty1957 · September 10, 2012 3:32AM

I would pay PCGS $100 to put the Old Green Label in the new slab.

Unknown · September 10, 2012 3:32AM

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TomB · September 10, 2012 3:33AM

It's not just the insert that is different for an OGH, the slab plastic and hologram is different, too.

Zoins · September 10, 2012 3:34AM

<< I would pay PCGS $100 to put the Green Label in the new slab.

Do you think they might offer that service for that premium? >>

That's a good data point. FadeToBlack mentions $5 so it might be somewhere in between.

I'm not sure if they'd offer the service from this data as you'd have to look at the overall expected net earnings of the service and consider any overriding business objectives. It would be an interesting product management exercise to be a part of.

Dollar2007 · September 10, 2012 3:37AM

<< It's not just the insert that is different for an OGH, the slab plastic and hologram is different, too. >>

That may have an effect on people who strictly buy OGH, but for people who like them for knowledge that the item has been sealed for many years, that wouldn't matter. Even putting a date on it or saying "reholdered" under the grade where a collection name would normally go would be nice, so you know it was never touched by anybody in those years.

shish · September 10, 2012 3:38AM

I would gladly pay an extra $5 to have the old green label in a nice new holder.

messydesk · September 10, 2012 3:43AM

I've brought this up in the past as well. All old labels, even the rattler ones, will fit in a current slab. I think a $2-5 handling fee per reholder to keep the original label would result in a lot of reholders coming through. Is the process of opening the slabs necessarily traumatic to the label?

WTCG · September 10, 2012 3:47AM

Old holders have a different hologram and perhaps slightly different label dimensions than the current holders so if an old label is placed in a current holder the difference would give the overall look of the slab an odd and obvious appearance.

Wabbit2313 · September 10, 2012 3:48AM

China will do it for free.

Catbert · September 10, 2012 3:50AM

There would also need to be a work flow analysis done to incorporate this variable. That could cost PCGS additional money to implement.

lkeigwin · September 10, 2012 3:51AM

We had a long thread about this recently. Messydesk's, IIRC. Lots of interesting perspectives.

<< I think I recall someone at PCGS telling me that the old green labels are actually physically destroyed and can't even be returned to you (as is done with NGC labels on crossover coins).

I just don't get this policy ? Why would PCGS want to destroy the old green labels? >>

Old certs are destroyed once the pops are updated. Makes sense to me.
Lance.

Zoins · September 10, 2012 3:58AM

<< We had a long thread about this recently. Messydesk's, IIRC. Lots of interesting perspectives.

<< I think I recall someone at PCGS telling me that the old green labels are actually physically destroyed and can't even be returned to you (as is done with NGC labels on crossover coins).

I just don't get this policy ? Why would PCGS want to destroy the old green labels? >>

Old certs are destroyed once the pops are updated. Makes sense to me.
Lance. >>

There should only be one insert for a cert number at a time. If you are going to issue a new one, you should destroy the old one. However, it's theoretically possible to keep the old one and not issue a new one.

That being said, there seems to be a business objective to encourage equality of slabs, no matter the age. In this case, it would make sense to upgrade the insert and also not release date of encapsulation information.

RevDrBlimber · September 10, 2012 3:59AM

This presents a dilemma. I know NGC does not have the best quality of imaging with their coins or at PMG; but they only charge $5 and their turnaround is days instead of weeks. So if you have a high value coin, thousands on up, I can see the merit of the true view service, especially with registry sets. But for the type coins in perfectly good holders, they could offer an economy option. Systems are up and running to do this efficiently. " Dans ses écrits, un sàge Italien Dit que le mieux est l'ennemi du bien."

messydesk · September 10, 2012 4:17AM

<< That being said, there seems to be a business objective to encourage equality of slabs, no matter the age. In this case, it would make sense to upgrade the insert and also not release date of encapsulation information. >>

That may have been a valid objective 20 years ago, when there were several generations of slabs after only 6 years of slabbing, but todays reality is different and includes:

- An increased market value placed on coins in old holders for the confidence that the coins must be stable 20 years after being slabbed, especially for copper.
- Improvements in protection from the environment on slabs that have since been developed or are under development.
- Improvements in optical quality of slabs that have since been developed or are under development.
- Degradation of slabs that have been active in the marketplace that are begging to be replaced.

Allowing a coin to be reholdered with the old label accommodates all these realities. Not keeping the old label will discourage reholdering of older material and won't do anything to encourage market equality among slab generations.

WingedLiberty1957 · September 10, 2012 4:21AM

Great points Messydesk. Well said.

renomedphys · September 10, 2012 4:26AM

<< I think I recall someone at PCGS telling me that the old green labels are actually physically destroyed and can't even be returned to you (as is done with NGC labels on crossover coins).

I just don't get this policy ? Why would PCGS want to destroy the old green labels? >>

One: NGC labels have been returned to me after crossovers, so apparantly that's wrong.

Two: It is not in PCGS' business interest to have separate markets for different generation coins. Think about it.

End.

WingedLiberty1957 · September 10, 2012 4:31AM

when i wrote

"as is done with NGC labels " ...

i was trying to convey that PCGS WILL return NGC labels ... I have gotten about 50 NGC labels back from PCGS on crossovers.

but they destroy the old PCGS green labels

Sorry I wasn't very clear.

commoncents05 · September 10, 2012 4:37AM

<< Two: It is not in PCGS' business interest to have separate markets for different generation coins. Think about it. >>

Bingo.

-Paul

WingedLiberty1957 · September 10, 2012 4:41AM

So here is my 2nd question to all the smart posters here ...

How many of you would CRINGE ... if I had this coin cracked out of the OGH and put in a new blue label PCGS Secure Plus slab?

Would the coin become less "valuable"? That is, do you think it would bring less in an open auction if I lost the OGH?

AUandAG · September 10, 2012 4:43AM

As an aside ... I think I recall hearing that the coin can be photographed through the slab in the TrueView service (and therefore the old green label saved), however these through-the-slab photos never seem to turn out as good since you are dealing with slab glare and cannot always optimize the color. And with old slabs there are often slab plastic flaws (scratches) that mar the photo. >>

A good photographer can take excellent pics through the slab and can make the scratches completely disappear.

It's just that PCGS is not set up to do this and thus you would not have a good trueview as you say.

If it's just a great pic you want then try one of the board photographers like Todd Pollock.

bob

Bochiman · September 10, 2012 4:45AM

Given what the older labels can mean (coins that aren't likely messed with as they have lived years without changing (much, if at all)), I do not just go about swapping holders on nice older coins.
If it is completely common, with a common look, then I don't care.

However, copper with red still there, any coin with nice toning, etc......I wouldn't crack and have redone.

So, in this case, I think the mania about getting it in a S+ holder is not a good thing. As for imaging, there are some great photogs that can do a very reasonable job, IN holder, and I would do that.

To me, the coin has MORE value as-is, in the green holder, than it would in a newer holder, since I would know the approximate year of grading and how long it has been as it is. That's a huge plus.

illini420 · September 10, 2012 4:46AM

The OGH doesn't do that much for me on a Morgan Dollar, except say that it hasn't been looked at for grading for quite awhile. Accordingly, if you do send it in for TrueView, instead of paying for the $10 reholdering fee, be sure to pay a little extra for a regrade so you know the coin was also graded under today's standard... since in the new holder everyone will assume that anyways.

magikbilly · September 10, 2012 4:49AM

I think it would be tantamount to "admitting" standards..uh..I mean to "admit" that some collectors place a different value on the different holders. With different labels, different stickers and all, price guides REALLY are just guides now. I look at each coin; I think that was the idea.

I think the advanced collectors don't need green papers, stickers or anything other than their eyes and experience. I have seen it said here time and again.

Eric

Timbuk3 · September 10, 2012 5:00AM

I've also asked myself the same question. I don't
mind paying extra to keep the old label.

Max2 · September 10, 2012 5:19AM

Just a cautionary question. Because of selection bias - collectors selecting the best OGH for possible upgrade, leaving inferior coins in holders - there will come a point when the only coins left in OGH will be of inferior quality. There is always a bell curve in any sample. If I have an inferior coin, I would leave it in the OGH to bolster its value.

agentjim007 · September 10, 2012 5:38AM

For Sale XXXX Green label in original plastic. For Sale XXXX Green Label in replacement plastic. The second doesn't sound so great.

ziggy29 · September 10, 2012 5:42AM

Doing this adds legitimacy to the idea that PCGS has, whether subconsciously or subconsciously, changed grading standards and have applied different standards based on the "generation" of the holder. Frankly, I think this desire is "buying the holder" to an extreme. It's becoming less and less about the coin...

messydesk · September 10, 2012 5:45AM

<< For Sale XXXX Green label in original plastic. For Sale XXXX Green Label in replacement plastic. The second doesn't sound so great. >>

On the contrary. The first sounds like I may need to pay for a reholder myself, while the second sounds like the seller has gone through the trouble of making sure the coin is in a pristine holder.

Catbert · September 10, 2012 5:46AM

If it were me, I'd leave it alone and retain the "cache" of the OGH. I know you value the whole picture thing, but YOU get to see the coin in hand with your own eyes and know the beauty. IMHO, it isn't worth the incremental advantage of the True View over a bluvette or messydesk photo in order to show off the coin's beauty to others.

WingedLiberty1957 · September 10, 2012 5:48AM

I wonder since someone brought up PCGS wanting a new cert number and a hologram on the label ...

Since PCGS already has two varieties of labels (currently)

1. PCGS Standard
2. PCGS Secure Plus

I wonder if PCGS could add a third variety of new label ....

3. PCGS Green Label "Replacement"

That way a reslabbed OGH coin could have a brand new label (but green in color) ... a new cert number and a new official hologram ... but could show that the coin was previously slabbed in an OGH

Zoins · September 10, 2012 5:56AM

Why not just take a photo of the coin in the OGH and a photo of the coin in the SPH or standard holder to show the coin hasn't changed?

If previous auction history is available for the coin, that will help too.

crypto79 · September 10, 2012 6:01AM

You all realize that if PCGS did this some of the special-ness of OGHs would go away over night and you would not care as much about them.

Dollar2007 · September 10, 2012 6:05AM

<< You all realize that if PCGS did this some of the special-ness of OGHs would go away over night and you would not care as much about them. >>

I just like it for the longevity issue of proving the coin has been sealed for so many years. We may not think it is important now, but in 20, 30, 50 years it will make a difference. I don't see why PCGS can't document somewhere, even on the cert page if not on the slab that it is a re holder of a older slab and was opened, and resealed by them.

lkeigwin · September 10, 2012 6:19AM

<< when i wrote

"as is done with NGC labels " ...

i was trying to convey that PCGS WILL return NGC labels ... I have gotten about 50 NGC labels back from PCGS on crossovers.

but they destroy the old PCGS green labels

Sorry I wasn't very clear. >>

I thought you were pretty clear, WL.

PCGS destroys all labels from regrades and, I believe, even from reholders. Not just green ones. The TPG's always return the other company's cert with a cross.
Lance.

WingedLiberty1957 · September 10, 2012 6:24AM

I had a really well known and respected dealer (who I won't mention by name for confidentiality reasons) tell me that he would have paid me $925 for a particular coin if it was still in the original PCGS OGH like I bought it from him ... but that he wouldn't touch at $700 since I had it reslabbed in a PCGS Secure Plus slab. That's a nearly 25% drop in value going from a PCGS Old Green Label holder to PCGS Secure Plus holder. A $225 price difference for an OGH vs. Secure Plus. That shocked me.

lkeigwin · September 10, 2012 6:31AM

If it's all about images, WL, I see no reason why you can't get high quality pictures from a coin in a slab. I would say 99% of the time the slab does not interfere with results (other than prongs).

I must have shot 50 colorful Morgans, like the one below, for a holiday sale for Vic and Sheri Bozarth. And none was especially challenging.
Lance.

WingedLiberty1957 · September 10, 2012 6:34AM

I have to say that is a STUNNING photo Lance. WOW.
You make a good point.

roadrunner · September 10, 2012 6:52AM

Just a cautionary question. Because of selection bias - collectors selecting the best OGH for possible upgrade, leaving inferior coins in holders - there will come a point when the only coins left in OGH will be of inferior quality. There is always a bell curve in any sample. If I have an inferior coin, I would leave it in the OGH to bolster its value.

I wouldn't necessarily call them inferior, just not upgradeable. It's to PCGS's benefit to get all the old slabs placed into new holders. This way there is only opinion vs.
physical evidence on whether or not grading standards varied over the past 25 yrs. The extra revenue from the regrade is an added bonus. It's not good to have competition
from your own coins.

Bochiman · September 10, 2012 7:20AM

<< I had a really well known and respected dealer (who I won't mention by name for confidentiality reasons, who is a member of these boards) tell me that he would have paid me $925 for a particular coin if it was still in the original PCGS OGH like I bought it from him ... but that he wouldn't touch at $700 since I had it reslabbed in a PCGS Secure Plus slab. That's a nearly 25% drop in value going from a PCGS Old Green Label holder to PCGS Secure Plus holder. That shocked me. A $225 price difference for the label color (same coin). >>

Let's be fair.....it isn't about the label "color" as much as it is about when the label was done.
As said by myself and a few others, telling when a coin was slabbed is helpful in knowing that it (most likely) wasn't messed with and has been stable for many years.
That is what the "OGH" means to some of us. If the holder color was changed overnight, to green, I don't think having your coin slabbed in it would get your dealer to go back up to the $925 price.

That said, there are definitely those who buy the slab/label as well as the coin (think doily/black slab/etc), but in this case, you have a very cool toned coin that was slabbed years ago...it has proven some stability that way. Reslab it and it is open to the environment again, at the least, and all bets are off to anyone buying the coin after that as it no longer has that history.

coinbuf · September 10, 2012 7:20AM

I can name three quality coin photographers any one of which can shoot the coin you have IN the slab just as well as haveing a trueview done. You'll keep the value of the plastic and as an added bonus you'll pay less for return shipping than you would from PCGS; its a very simple decision imo.

WingedLiberty1957 · September 10, 2012 7:34AM

<< Let's be fair.....it isn't about the label "color" as much as it is about when the label was done.
As said by myself and a few others, telling when a coin was slabbed is helpful in knowing that it (most likely) wasn't messed with and has been stable for many years.
That is what the "OGH" means to some of us. If the holder color was changed overnight, to green, I don't think having your coin slabbed in it would get your dealer to go back up to the $925 price.

That said, there are definitely those who buy the slab/label as well as the coin (think doily/black slab/etc), but in this case, you have a very cool toned coin that was slabbed years ago...it has proven some stability that way. Reslab it and it is open to the environment again, at the least, and all bets are off to anyone buying the coin after that as it no longer has that history. >>

So it didn't matter that the dealer and I both had photos of the coin looking exactly the same in the OGH. So not only did we both know that the coin was slabbed a long time ago, we had physical proof from the old photos. But perhaps I am a bit naive about OGH's or how things work in the coin biz. From my perspective, it seemed to me that we both had proof the coin was stable and slabbed a long time ago, what I lost was the actual physical green label slab.

It's interesting how the perspective of some on this board is "it's about the coin not the plastic" and to others it appears "the plastic matters". All I know is from my limited real world experiences , cracking a coin out of an OGH does seems to reduce it's value. I have seen that "value impact" verified from dealers and collectors alike. So that leads me full circle back to my question listed in my OP.

It seems my only option would be to have this coin shot through the slab plastic and retain the OGH if I wanted to maintain the highest possible value.

Zoins · September 10, 2012 7:48AM

<< My dilemma comes in when I buy a colorfully toned PCGS-slabbed coin in an Old Green Holder (OGH). >>

I think the market treats toners differently due to the prevalence of doctors and AT.

However, I'm not sure if the market is large enough for our host to make special accommodations.

coinbuf · September 10, 2012 7:51AM

You know from your own experence; which has been confirmed by the replies on this thread that the old holders add a comfort factor; which relates to a dollar value; to some buyers. It seems that you have all the answers you need to make an informed decision, in the end its really up to what you want and how much of a possible financial hit your willing to take for the option of having a pic taken of the raw coin.

agentjim007 · September 10, 2012 7:55AM

Good point made. A green label (or any older label) even in new plastic lets the buyer know the coin is most likely stable.

lkeigwin · September 10, 2012 8:02AM

Look at the possible reasons for cracking an OGH:

1 - For True View images. (Isn't necessary, IMO.)
2 - For a reholder. (The slab must be pretty beat up. I could see this option if the holder were broken or so badly scarred it couldn't be polished.)
3 - For a regrade, up or down. (Risky. In most cases it will simply come back the same grade without the OGH.)
4 - For the crack-out game. (These collectors love to gamble and accept getting killed now and then.)
5 - Spot review and treatment. (The coin needs saving.)
6 - Crossing to another TPG. (Say what?)

There may be other reasons. But of those above the only one that makes sense to me is #5.

I just leave the OGH as it is.
Lance.

WingedLiberty1957 · September 10, 2012 8:06AM

Thanks for all the feedback everyone.

renomedphys · September 10, 2012 8:17AM

Heeeey, wasn't it you, Paul, that strongly encouraged me to send in a cartain OGH 1910 MPL for a true-view?

You may get your wish someday. I'm screwing up the courage as we speak for another submission. Lotta coins at the express level, though. Means lots'a dough.

Bochiman · September 10, 2012 9:29AM

<< So it didn't matter that the dealer and I both had photos of the coin looking exactly the same in the OGH. So not only did we both know that the coin was slabbed a long time ago, we had physical proof from the old photos. But perhaps I am a bit naive about OGH's or how things work in the coin biz. From my perspective, it seemed to me that we both had proof the coin was stable and slabbed a long time ago, what I lost was the actual physical green label slab.
>>

Correct....it does NOT matter for the proof you are speaking of. In a perfect numismatic world, and one in a vacuum, sure...it would matter. However, that is not what is going on here. You have people with their own thoughts/feelings. You have people that believe one thing or another. There's value in perceptions and thoughts. Your dealer has to be aware of those values and work accordingly. He/she knows what the value would be if they priced it one way, or the other.

If you are going to be in the collecting AND value game, then you need to understand that.

Right now, and I mean no offense to you in this as I have been there as well, it sounds like you are collecting like an ostrich; head buried in the sand.
So, you collect what you like, and pay what you are willing to pay, based on the coin and your desires. Nothing at all wrong with that.

As soon as you start talking about value and holders, etc, then the head needs to come out of the sand and look around. Why would one coin, in MS64, be worth more than another? Could be because they aren't equal. Could also be because of toning, because of the holder, etc. There is value in the perception of what the coin is (undergraded in the holder? etc)

Look at the folks buying doily holders. What if the coin is solid for the grade, but not an upgrade? They are still paying multiple times what the coin, raw and correctly graded, would bring.
If you had bought one from a dealer, and you cracked it out and it was in a new holder, I bet you he would pay just under the going rate for that coin raw (or greysheet bid, etc). Nowhere near what you paid. It's because that is what he would have to work with, pricing-wise, in order to sell it.

I have some OGHs that I keep as they are, because I like the coin and like the holder. I have an 1861 AU half-dollar that CAC gave a gold sticker to. I thought it was better than the AU50 it was given originally, and, it turns out, they do as well. I could send it in, get a trueview and a higher grade, most likely. I won't. The OGH adds a little value/mystique (even before the gold sticker, my reasoning and stance has been the same), but it has been protected all those years and I will price it by the coin in the holder, not the holder, if/when I go to sell.
Now, for doilies....I have sold everyone I purchased as I purchased them all to sell (or for someone else that wouldn't have been able to get them otherwise). Out of about 8 doilies I have owned (not a lot, I know), there was only 1 that I wish I would have kept as it was a very nice WLH. The rest were common and their value was all in the plastic/label. I understand that. I don't complain about it. What it is, is.

WingedLiberty1957 · September 10, 2012 9:43AM

but I find a lot of coins this way bochiman

... plus i was able to save the expense of buying a metal detector

Question to PCGS: Why can't OGH labels be reused for coins being cracked out for TrueViews ?

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