Wanted - For 1942 Pattern Research

keyman64 · July 24, 2012 12:18PM

A friend ATS is seeking some assistance if you can help.

Please let me know if any members have some of these or are aware of the location of any specimens.
Research only: not buying or selling.

ambro51 · July 24, 2012 1:41PM

You need to talk with Oreville. He is the resident expert on these.

Unknown · July 24, 2012 1:41PM

This content has been removed.

oreville · July 24, 2012 2:03PM

I have been in constant contact with Roger Burdette for the last several years regarding his research project.

Roger already has personally seen a bunch of my 1942 patterns.

i have had a running thread right here of the 1942 patterns I currently own although much of the information the auction companies have provided is now going to change.

Just you wait to see what Roger has discovered and I am excited to be part of some of the most exciting discoveries of 20th century numismatics!!!!!!!

But you will have to buy his book when it comes out to read all about it!!!

Justacommeman · July 24, 2012 2:09PM

Oreville, you ain't just whistling Dixie ...............Roger is scary good. Can't wait to hear all about. MJ

coindeuce · July 25, 2012 12:39AM

It has been at least three years since I have seen the display mounted pair of the dark brown (phenolic resin, eh Oreville?) plastic examples that a customer brought to me for an evaluation. I hope to see them again someday.

OldEastside · July 25, 2012 12:49AM

I can't wait for the book

Steve

keyman64 · July 25, 2012 12:57AM

It is my understanding because of this very post, an additional 7 previously unknown examples have come to light.

. That would be cool. Looking forward to the book!

AngryTurtle · July 25, 2012 3:44AM

<< I have been in constant contact with Roger Burdette for the last several years regarding his research project.

Roger already has personally seen a bunch of my 1942 patterns.

i have had a running thread right here of the 1942 patterns I currently own although much of the information the auction companies have provided is now going to change.

Just you wait to see what Roger has discovered and I am excited to be part of some of the most exciting discoveries of 20th century numismatics!!!!!!!

But you will have to buy his book when it comes out to read all about it!!! >>

Ummm, it is now the 21st century...

Zoins · July 25, 2012 3:46AM

<< 

<< you will have to buy his book when it comes out to read all about it!!! >>

Ummm, it is now the 21st century... >>

I wonder if the book will come out on the Kindle or iPad?

It might also be interesting to have a web version of the book incorporated into PCGS CoinFacts.

johnny9434 · July 25, 2012 5:41AM

<< You need to talk with Oreville. He is the resident expert on these. >>

there ya go, that works

CEOcoinshopcom · July 25, 2012 7:30AM

Great subject.

I have 2 of the Plastic 1942 test pieces. Two different kinds of "plastic".... they came to me in Bowers/Marena flips, with auction #'s... not sure what year.
I am digging in the safe for them right now. I'll try to get some pics up.

keyman64 · July 25, 2012 1:23PM

<< Great subject.

I have 2 of the Plastic 1942 test pieces. Two different kinds of "plastic".... they came to me in Bowers/Marena flips, with auction #'s... not sure what year.
I am digging in the safe for them right now. I'll try to get some pics up. >>

Very cool! I hope you can post some pics! About what year did you get them?

keyman64 · July 26, 2012 11:37AM

Sure would be interesting to find out how many different ones there are and the pops known of each. Hopefully the book addresses this.

messydesk · July 26, 2012 12:25PM

<< I am digging in the safe for them right now. I'll try to get some pics up. >>

CEOcoinshopcom · July 27, 2012 5:16AM

Found Them!!!

Trying to do the pictures???? Please help the technically challenged....

CEOcoinshopcom · July 27, 2012 5:18AM

Here's the other one:

messydesk · July 27, 2012 6:28AM

Looks like the camera isn't focusing on the coins. Push the "flower" (macro) button on the camera and see if that helps.

SanctionII · July 27, 2012 6:32AM

For those of you who have read Clive Cussler's books, ..........................................

.....................me thinks that RWB is to all things numismatics what Julian Pearlmutter is to all things maritime.

keyman64 · July 27, 2012 9:56AM

A couple of posts from RWB's brain across the street. I wish he was back on these boards...

The emergency coin experiments made from 1941 to 1944 are not well known to collectors or professional numismatists.

In the context of WW-II, the mint’s experiments were “quick and dirty.” Few records were kept, tests were ad hoc, and the mint had little concept of what constituted a successful outcome. They just tried to keep competing interests satisfied and maintain the support of Congress.

The rather sparse published information in Judd and Pollock pattern books can be traced back to articles by Robert H. Lloyd (1967) and William G. Anderson (1975). These, in turn, are based on replies from the Mint Bureau to questions and various newspaper articles (1942 and later). Past information has relied on differences in color to separate different plastic pieces, and assumptions about alloy for metal pieces.

My approach is to separate plastics according to composition and manufacturer, and metals according to alloy or superficial coatings applied to an alloy. Documentary information was extracted from thousands of pages of reports, letters and memoranda. It was then analyzed and collated into master production tables for cents and nickels.

The results are: an overall story of what was done to adapt coinage to the copper shortage; a description of the contribution of the Mint Bureau and each participating company; identification of material types used by the mint and companies; correlation of color and surface characteristics to material and production methods; and an illustrated catalog of all known experiments. Catalog numbers are based on date of production, reverse die used, composition and manufacturer. Thus,
an experimental piece molded in Bakelite® by the Bakelite Corp., first reverse, in 1942 is number RB 42-51;
the same made in Plastacele® cellulose acetate by E.I. DuPont, first reverse, in 1942 is number RB 42-52;
the same in urea formaldehyde by Patent Button Co., third reverse, in 1942 is number RB 42-53 and so forth.

(It’s much easier to see the catalog than to describe it….)
Color is relatively unimportant because it can change over time. Exposure to moisture and contaminants, and natural volatization of constituent chemicals, change color and other surface characteristics.

Then to answer CEOCoinShopcom's question:

For CEOcoinshopcom –

Even from the blurry photos on PCGS board I can tell you what you have.

#83787 – 10.30 grains (0.6675 grams), injection molded from phenolic resin. [RGB color = 70-59-40] (This is the “dark brown” piece shown with the #83791 envelope. It belongs in the #83787 envelope.)

#83791 – 10.76 grains (0.6972 grams), injection molded urea formaldehyde resin. [RGB color = 93-75-44] (This is the “tan color” piece shown with the #83787 envelope. It belongs in the #83791 envelope.)

These are not “planchets.” They are molded product samples made by Patent Button Company of Tennessee, Inc. Only pieces with five concentric rings just inside the rim, and the correct diameter for a one-cent coin are legitimate artifacts of the 1942 experiments. Both whould be about 0.066-inch thick. An unknown quantity was sent to Mint HQ and approximately 25 of each were forwarded to the National Bureau of Standards for testing. The “tan” piece was labeled “A,” and the “dark brown” piece was labeled “B” for the tests. These two pieces were evidently not used; some others were destroyed during testing.

Provenance: Patent Button Company of Tennessee, Inc.; US Mint HQ; National Bureau of Standards, tested then discarded; former NBS employee or descendant; Richard Nachbar; Q. David Bowers; Bowers & Merena auctions; CEOcoinshopcom.

CEOcoinshopcom · July 27, 2012 10:29AM

Wow, cool I will get them in the correct envelope.

So the $34 question... are they worth anything? are they rare? should I send them to the ANA museum? smithsonion?

Or should they just go back in my safe?

Thanks ahead.

keyman64 · July 27, 2012 10:43AM

<< Wow, cool I will get them in the correct envelope.

So the $34 question... are they worth anything? are they rare? should I send them to the ANA museum? smithsonion?

Or should they just go back in my safe?

Thanks ahead. >>

You should just send them to me.

Or you can put them back in your safe if you must. Please do not send then to a museum where they will not even be displayed most of the time. All them to be enjoyed in private hands.

How did you come to own these?

keyman64 · July 27, 2012 11:23AM

By RWB ATS:

Re: Potential Value
The only auction notes on “value” I have are from the Heritage Baltimore auction of 2003. Lot 10055 (phenolic) sold for $230 and lot 10056 (urea formaldehyde) sold for $172.50.

One difficulty is that until this research is published, no one will be able to distinguish ordinary button or transit token samples from the very few pieces associated with the 1942 mint experiments. A second potential problem is that because these have no coin-like design, many have probably been discarded. Finally, several auctions in the past few years have included button samples cataloged as “blank planchets” or similar. These further confuse an already chaotic situation.

WinLoseWin · July 27, 2012 11:55AM

Certainly this is already known to the researchers, especially as Andy Lustig ran the auction, but posting it anyway just because it is interesting.

Don't have the prices realized. So not sure if they sold or not and if so whether it was as a group or individually or how much.

keyman64 · July 27, 2012 12:10PM

Nice post WinLoseWin!

CEOcoinshopcom · July 28, 2012 8:10AM

Well, thanks to everyone..... especially keyman

I have had these for a few years, and not seeing any others, knew they were somewhat unique... but that was the end of my knowledge.
This forum, and the total of knowledge here, is by far the most impressive single place for Numismatic knowledge.
Thanks to everyone for sharing, I am learning Mucho!

Kevin
Ceo coinshop.com

Wanted - For 1942 Pattern Research

Comments

Leave a Comment