Buyer claims he hasn't received my package. How to proceed?

nibanny · July 3, 2012 1:25PM

I sold a coin for over $400 a couple of weeks ago on eBay.
Tonight I have received an email from the buyer claiming he hasn't received the package even though the tracking shows it as delivered.
The coin was shipped via First-Class mail, fully insured with signature confirmation.
I double checked the address on the label record slip and it matches the eBay order.

I have two questions if any of you have experience on this.

- I have requested a Proof of Delivery through the USPS website. How long does it take?
- I should be covered by the PayPal protection. Can the buyer leave negative feedback anyway?

Any comment is appreciated.

Thanks,
MM

michiganboy · July 3, 2012 1:37PM

I've had usps not only not get a signature for a $14,000 when it was required but also just mark and scan my package as delivered when they loaded the truck. Best bit of advice call the post office branch it was last at, and find out whats going on.

okracer · July 3, 2012 1:43PM

I once wanted to check that a signature required package got delivered. I went to my PO and they were able to check the signature of the recipient on their computer and made me a copy of it. I was then able to contact the receiver and state I saw the sig and they confirmed receipt of the package.

OnlyGoldIsMoney · July 3, 2012 2:07PM

I believe you can have a facsimile of the signature received sent to you. That should be conclusive.

NewParadigm · July 3, 2012 2:18PM

As long as you have signature confirmation, you are good. The process goes like this:

Buyer makes a claim claiming no delivery.

You give PayPal the tracking that show signature confirmation.

PayPal rules in your favor.

NewParadigm · July 3, 2012 2:19PM

As to the second part, he will be able to leave negative feedback. Unfair but that's the fact of it.

Spooly · July 3, 2012 2:28PM

Can you open a complaint on the buyer first? Might help in getting a Neg removed later.

mrpotatoheadd · July 3, 2012 2:41PM

<< Can you open a complaint on the buyer first? >>

File a complaint against a buyer who paid for his winning bid? Why?

19Lyds · July 3, 2012 4:36PM

UGH!

I've got one similar except the Post Office supposedly left a notice that the buyer had a package to pick up.
I called the USPS Number and was told that they will NOT automatically make a redelivery attempt so the buyer MUST go to the Post Office for his package or they return it to me.

Package shipped on 6/19. Notice Left on 6/23. Then the trail just ends.

I emailed the buyer with instructions on what to do but have not received a reply just yet.

U{DATE: The Package was delivered today. Well..........it was marked as delivered.

AM909 · July 3, 2012 6:13PM

Apartment, house, or what? If an apartment, did he check with the manager to see if they signed for it? Couldn't USPS give you the name of the signor over the phone?

I once had an order of checks go missing, along with the replacement order. Turns out the delivery guy was chucking them up onto my 2nd-story balcony and not even bothering to leave a note

nibanny · July 3, 2012 9:41PM

Thanks everyone for the comments so far.
Tonight I have received the Proof of Delivery but there is no signature on it.

I told the buyer to go to his Post Office and check with the Post Master.

UNCOnly · July 3, 2012 11:39PM

<< I sold a coin for over $400 a couple of weeks ago on eBay.
Tonight I have received an email from the buyer claiming he hasn't received the package even though the tracking shows it as delivered.
The coin was shipped via First-Class mail, fully insured with signature confirmation.
I double checked the address on the label record slip and it matches the eBay order.

I have two questions if any of you have experience on this.

- I have requested a Proof of Delivery through the USPS website. How long does it take?
- I should be covered by the PayPal protection. Can the buyer leave negative feedback anyway?

Any comment is appreciated.

Thanks,
MM >>

Buyers can neg you for any reason, even if unwarranted. eBay has always had a loose neg feedback policy, which allows stupid reasons for a buyer to neg you.

Since you shipped this package requiring a signature upon delivery, you can find out if it was indeed delivered by requesting the USPS to trace the package by the tracking number. You can also get a copy of the signature as well for your records, and in case the buyer files an IND case through eBay/PayPal.

eBay/PayPal will rule in your favor with that, and if the buyer negs you on feedback, eBay can remove it from your account.

UNLVino · July 3, 2012 11:57PM

I was a buyer and here's what happened to me twice... Both happy endings, because of mutual trust.

1. Mailman left in the package bin in mailbox cluster, but never put key in my box.. I stalked mailman , got my item.

2. Had it delivered to my office, of course it comes on a Saturday and I'm not there, I ask the office admin the following Monday if mailman left a signature receipt in the mailbox, she sai "oh yeah I was wondering who that belonged to", had itnre-silvered that day.

Some trust and coordination with USPS solved both my issues. Hope yours has a happy ending too.
Happy birthday America!

grote15 · July 4, 2012 3:34AM

Signature confirmation will not help you with paypal if the mailperson was too lazy to get a signature. I would think, though, that you could file an insurance claim under those circumstances.

derryb · July 4, 2012 3:55AM

discussion makes me appreciate the delays of the more secure registered mail. It's also cost effective on anything insured for more than $750.

notwilight · July 4, 2012 4:26AM

Lots of gloom and doom, mostly based on legend and lore rather than experience.

Here is what I would do:

Tell him that it was shipped signature confirmation and the post office shows it delivered with signature so apparently someone at his house signed for it and suggest he speak to his post office about who they got a signature from--recruit his help as he needs to figure out he is the one at risk here. Be helpful and friendly. Do NOT threaten or get into a fight. Do not discuss feedback as anything you say that could be interpreted as "feedback extortion" would be bad. You can gain nothing by discussing it.

Contact paypal and tell them that you are expecting a claim and ask them what to do. The key is do follow every paypal rule and you cannot lose.

I believe ebay will remove negative feedback when you have signature confirmation showing delivered.

--Jerry

segoja · July 4, 2012 4:28AM

GOOD LUCK!!!

Follow Jerry's advice and you should be good. If you file an insurance claim, the post office will deny it as they show delivered.

derryb · July 4, 2012 4:35AM

<< GOOD LUCK!!!

Follow Jerry's advice and you should be good. If you file an insurance claim, the post office will deny it as they show delivered. >>

Jerry failed to notice OP's second post that Post Office did not get the signature they were required to get. Paypal's signature requirement not met because of the PO's failure to get it even when shipper paid for the service. OP's beef is with the PO. It's seller's beef not the buyer's.

jmski52 · July 4, 2012 4:36AM

All Insured Mail requires a signature, and a separate proof of delivery is not required. After the specified period (14 days?), you can file a claim with the USPO for the insured amount, and the Post Office will initiate an investigation. If they have a signature, they will provide it to you and the buyer is caught in a lie, which you can then take to PayPal as proof. If they can't produce a signature, the odds are that you will be getting a claim payment, which can then be refunded to the buyer.

derryb · July 4, 2012 4:39AM

<< All Insured Mail requires a signature, and a separate proof of delivery is not required. After the specified period (14 days?), you can file a claim with the USPO for the insured amount, and the Post Office will initiate an investigation. If they have a signature, they will provide it to you and the buyer is caught in a lie, which you can then take to PayPal as proof. If they can't produce a signature, the odds are that you will be getting a claim payment, which can then be refunded to the buyer. >>

Items insured for under $200 do not require a delivery signature.

See "Insured Mail" section

mrpotatoheadd · July 4, 2012 5:54AM

<< All Insured Mail requires a signature, and a separate proof of delivery is not required. >>

Delivery Confirmation (under $250) or Signature Confirmation (over $250) is a PayPal requirement if you want to be covered under their seller protection policy. The signature the post office gets on insured mail is not enough.

LindeDad · July 4, 2012 6:20AM

Simple fact is that if it had Signature Service and Insurance on it give the buyer the information and tell him to file the insurance claim with the USPS from his end. He is the one that has to certify that it was not delivered to the person it was supposed to be delivered to anyway for the claim to process.

derryb · July 4, 2012 6:31AM

Ebay/paypal require "proof of delivery" on items over $250. This can be any service that provides on-line viewing (usually PDF from the post office) of the signature via the "tracking number". For registered I purchase electronic return reciept which is cheaper, requires no form and provides what ebay/payal require. Signature confirmation meets the requirement but note that it is not the only way to do so and is not identified by ebay/paypal as the only specific way to do so. I further save all of these PDF files (once USPS delivers and a signature is available) in a folder as I do not know how long they are viewable on line.

Bottom line, ebay/paypal want to be able to click on an uploaded shipping number and see, from the contracted shipper's webpage, proof that delivery was made and the signature if one was required by ebay/paypal. To my knowledge this is the only way ebay/paypal will agree with a seller that delivery was made.

nibanny · July 4, 2012 6:34AM

Thanks again to everyone for your comments.

The buyer seemed concerned for the missing coin, not upset for a bad service.

Before reading Jerry's post, I did exactly what he suggested.
I provided the buyer with the POD (with no signature) and asked if I could help in any other way.
Though I feel this is, at the moment, out of my control and responsibility.
I suggested him to check with the Post Master in his PO.

I will call PayPal to see what are the possible scenarios.

MM

mrpotatoheadd · July 4, 2012 6:38AM

<< Signature confirmation meets the requirement but note that it is not the only way to do so and is not identified as the only specific way to do so. >>

That is correct. My previous post was addressing the issue of the signature obtained on an insured shipment being sufficient for PayPal purposes, not a registered shipment.

nibanny · July 4, 2012 6:40AM

Just for fun, this is the POD from USPS. (Logistics is my job, if this can be considered a valid proof of delivery I would have only a tenth of the issues I have!

)

mrpotatoheadd · July 4, 2012 6:42AM

<< I will call PayPal to see what are the possible scenarios. >>

PayPal is going to require that a signature was obtained. From their website:

Proof of Delivery" is online documentation from a shipping company that includes all of the following:

•The item’s status as delivered.
•The date the item is delivered.
•The recipient address is the same as in the shipping address section on the Transaction Details Page.
•The recipient's address, showing at least the city & state, or city & country, or zip/postal code (or international equivalent).
•Signature Confirmation as described below if the full amount of the payment including shipping and taxes, is $250 USD or more,.

"Signature Confirmation" is online documentation that can be viewed at the shipping company’s website and indicates that the item was signed for on delivery."

derryb · July 4, 2012 6:54AM

<< Just for fun, this is the POD from USPS. (Logistics is my job, if this can be considered a valid proof of delivery I would have only a tenth of the issues I have!

)

>>

It is considered valid by ebay/paypal because it came directly from the shipping service and not from one of the parties involved in any claim. The missing signature makes it not usuable as proof of delivery.

Unknown · July 4, 2012 7:04AM

This content has been removed.

nibanny · July 4, 2012 7:05AM

Thanks mrpotatoheadd.
I don't think that it is my responsibility to obtain the signature. I paid USPS for that service and I have a receipt proving it (plus the tracking number screen)

Let's see how it ends.

nibanny · July 4, 2012 7:07AM

<< One of my packages recently was marked as delivered but was really sitting at the PO waiting for me to go pick it up... Caused a bit of temporary stress for the seller. >>

That was my first advice to the buyer: go check at the PO to see if the package is there.

mrpotatoheadd · July 4, 2012 8:32AM

Based on the image you posted, if the package never surfaces, I don't think you're out of the woods yet. If the post office determines that they did get a signature, they will almost certainly not pay on a claim for a loss. And if PayPal determines that the post office didn't get a signature, you won't be covered under their buyer protection policy.

nibanny · July 4, 2012 8:50AM

<< Based on the image you posted, if the package never surfaces, I don't think you're out of the woods yet. If the post office determines that they did get a signature, they will almost certainly not pay on a claim for a loss. And if PayPal determines that the post office didn't get a signature, you won't be covered under their buyer protection policy. >>

I know that I may lost a claim with PP (it happened before with better evidence!).
Though, looking at the POD they provided, it will be hard for the PO to prove they got a signature.

mrpotatoheadd · July 4, 2012 8:58AM

<< Though, looking at the POD they provided, it will be hard for the PO to prove they got a signature. >>

One would think.

nibanny · July 4, 2012 9:02AM

<< 

<< Though, looking at the POD they provided, it will be hard for the PO to prove they got a signature. >>

One would think. >>

Oh, it definitely can happen! But I should be so unlucky that PP won't accept what the PO declares. I know, that too can happen!

mrpotatoheadd · July 4, 2012 9:09AM

<< But I should be so unlucky that PP won't accept what the PO declares. I know, that too can happen! >>

That's why I posted what I did. Neither outfit is obligated to abide by the determination of the other. If the post office says that's a signature, then it is as far as they're concerned. And if PayPal says it's not...

edited to add... I mean- PayPal is owned by eBay and still will not accept evidence of delivery on eBay's site visible to anyone on the planet with a computer and an internet connection. What chance does one stand getting them to accept a post office claim they disagree with?

derryb · July 4, 2012 10:01AM

there's always the possibility that buyer received the package but knows PO failed to get the required signature.

mrpotatoheadd · July 4, 2012 10:08AM

<< there's always the possibility that buyer received the package but knows PO failed to get the required signature. >>

That does happen. I was unfortunate enough to encounter a buyer who claimed "never received- lost in the mail" in about 20% of their feedback left for sellers when I looked (too late for me, however).

Nobody's mail delivery is that bad.

AM909 · July 4, 2012 10:20AM

Was that an email, FAX, or hard-copy? It looks like it's just a really bad copy/scan because the lines and the printing are bad, too. I imagine the original (if it still exists, hopefully) may prove to be more readable, and there's just something wrong with their copying system (no surprise for the wonderful USPS and their careful employees).

mrpotatoheadd · July 4, 2012 10:23AM

<< Was that an email, FAX, or hard-copy? It looks like it's just a really bad copy/scan because the lines and the printing are bad, too. I imagine the original (if it still exists, hopefully) may prove to be more readable, and there's just something wrong with their copying system (no surprise for the wonderful USPS and their careful employees). >>

Depending on the post office, some don't have you sign a hard copy- you sign on a touchscreen type thing.

derryb · July 4, 2012 11:32AM

<< 

<< Was that an email, FAX, or hard-copy? It looks like it's just a really bad copy/scan because the lines and the printing are bad, too. I imagine the original (if it still exists, hopefully) may prove to be more readable, and there's just something wrong with their copying system (no surprise for the wonderful USPS and their careful employees). >>

Depending on the post office, some don't have you sign a hard copy- you sign on a touchscreen type thing. >>

it's properties show it to be a usps.jpg that was uploaded to photobucket by the poster. This means it was downloaded/saved from the usps PDF image into phtosoftware, saved as an image file and uploaded to photobucket for posting here. The PDFs are sent via email to the requestor who makes the request from the USPS "track shipment" webpage.

Here's the same process for one of my USPS PDFs showing what signatures (when obtained by the post office) should look like:

mrpotatoheadd · July 4, 2012 12:13PM

All I had to go on was the poster's image, which I didn't try to decipher. My point was just this- at some post office branches, you sign a paper slip that they image and at others, you sign on a touchscreen. In other words, there may be a hard copy signature record and there may not.

TwoSides2aCoin · July 4, 2012 12:35PM

The postal service is one of the best run businesses I've ever encountered in these United States. Their system should replace our 3 branches of government, not vice versa.

I approved this message.

derryb · July 4, 2012 12:51PM

<< All I had to go on was the poster's image, which I didn't try to decipher. My point was just this- at some post office branches, you sign a paper slip that they image and at others, you sign on a touchscreen. In other words, there may be a hard copy signature record and there may not. >>

very good point.

LindeDad · July 4, 2012 12:58PM

Still the fact is if it shows delivered online the buyer is going to have to work the problem from his end to get the postal insurance to make a payment to anybody.
Keep him involved in the process as from your posts so far it sounds like he is not the type to commit postal fraud by certifying that he did not get it if he did.

nibanny · July 4, 2012 1:07PM

<< Still the fact is if it shows delivered online the buyer is going to have to work the problem from his end to get the postal insurance to make a payment to anybody.
Keep him involved in the process as from your posts so far it sounds like he is not the type to commit postal fraud by certifying that he did not get it if he did.

>>

The buyer has over 1000 fbs and he's been 10 years on eBay. I doubt he's trying to scam me.
Anyway, I agree with you that he needs to work on his side but his last message doesn't sound promising. He just said he received the POD with no signature and asked me to check.
I will call the USPS customer service to see if they can help but I really don't know what else I can do.

mrpotatoheadd · July 4, 2012 1:58PM

If it were me, I wouldn't call customer service. I'd go to my post office with everything I have/know about the shipment, ask if there's anything that can be done from their end and what can be done from the buyer's end. Then, contact the buyer and let him know what you found out. Claims for a loss can be filed by either the sender or the recipient- if it comes to that, I'd get the ball rolling from my end and not just tell the buyer "It's up to you."

Casman · July 5, 2012 12:46AM

<< 

<< Still the fact is if it shows delivered online the buyer is going to have to work the problem from his end to get the postal insurance to make a payment to anybody.
Keep him involved in the process as from your posts so far it sounds like he is not the type to commit postal fraud by certifying that he did not get it if he did.

>>

The buyer has over 1000 fbs and he's been 10 years on eBay. I doubt he's trying to scam me.
Anyway, I agree with you that he needs to work on his side but his last message doesn't sound promising. He just said he received the POD with no signature and asked me to check.
I will call the USPS customer service to see if they can help but I really don't know what else I can do. >>

My buddy sent a buyer a 25th A 5 set box and it showed as notice left. I did some research on the buyer, and found he was also a seller w/20000+ positive feedback. He failed to respond to any inquiries regarding the sale, but responded immediately to questions aksed to his seller ID. I later learned from other sellers that he had also bought their 25th A boxes as well which were also in limbo.

This guy had $15K+ worth of 25th A sets and was refusing to communicate to anybody. I finally gave him a call, and he acted like a squirrel. He was gonna try to pull a scam and practically admitted it. He had all the boxes all along but didn't sign for any of them.

nibanny · July 5, 2012 12:55AM

Casman, thanks for sharing. You really never know what people can do, that's why I am trying to protect myself first.

Anyhow, this morning I spoke with the USPS CS and they said they see a POD with signature. I asked to have a copy via email.
I also called PayPal to see what they think and they confirmed I will be fully protected since their system checks the USPS website, where the package is delivered with signature confirmation.
Saturday I will stop by my PO to have more info.

derryb · July 5, 2012 1:08AM

It would help your case if you had USPS replace the unsigned POD with the signed POD on-line.

nibanny · July 5, 2012 1:22AM

<< It would help your case if you had USPS replace the unsigned POD with the signed POD on-line. >>

I received the copy which is the same I had already.

Though, I didn't notice that is says "delivered to J E" right after the the CITY,ZIP in the top part of the pdf.

Buyer claims he hasn't received my package. How to proceed?

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