Are Morgan VAMs still popular or do collectors care any more?

Constantine · June 28, 2012 1:09AM

Are they considered "old school" and with dying interest? Do you collect them and if so, what is your thought on popularity and value since you started?

rawmorgan · June 28, 2012 1:46AM

I would say that VAMs are alive a well with those that collect them.

But the VAM market is a little depressed these days.

The popular VAMs such as the o/cc varieties, 1880/79 varieties, and the 1878 8/7 varieties

will bring VAM and non-VAM collectors to the table.

I would say that now is a good time for VAM collectors

to pick up some deals although values do seem to be climbing,

per a search on Heritage for some of the Top 10 VAMs.

As for the entire VAM catalog only about 10% of the "Elite" VAMS (Top 100, Hot 50, the Hit List 40, and now the Kimpton 12)

will and have always brought a premium

the other 2,000+ are just interesting to die hard collectors

and garner little attention to other collectors.

Wolf359 · June 28, 2012 2:10AM

Oh yes, totally dead. No one cares about them anymore. No one collects Morgan dollars and Unicorns and Big Foot say so.

guitarwes · June 28, 2012 2:15AM

about like any other series that has lots and lots of varieties........you have some die hard collectors, you have some great varieties that will always be wanted, and you have the general population that doesn't give a rip.

It has softened a good bit in the last 3-5 years.

LindeDad · June 28, 2012 2:16AM

I woulds say that more collect then in holders that do not attribute them. Cost of attributed grading is too high for most of the more common ones to absorb the additional cost.
I no longer collect Morgans and never really got into the VAM's when I dad.

coindeuce · June 28, 2012 3:29AM

I'm a bit disturbed about the current trend in the field, where new collectors of this area seem more interested in getting their name in the limelight for making a possible discovery of some obscure, previously undetected feature of die production. Thus the explosion of new additions to the listings of mostly unremarkable varieties.

CalGold · June 28, 2012 3:42AM

<< obscure, previously undetected feature of die production >>

Which is why most collectors' eyes glaze over when someone mentions VAM or die marriage. In the Morgan series even many of the overdate varieties, which can actuallly be called varieties, are rather unremarkable. 87/6 for example--yeah, maybe that's a remnant of part of a six but nothing like an 1817/13 half.

CG

jerseycat101 · June 28, 2012 4:20AM

I think most knowledgeable collectors have realized that VAMs are nothing more than contrived, artificial rarities.

coindeuce · June 28, 2012 4:31AM

<< I think most knowledgeable collectors have realized that VAMs are nothing more than contrived, artificial rarities. >>

Consider yourself in an extreme minority of thought. The amount of time and expense that has been devoted to research on Morgan and Peace dollar VAMs is not all speculative and frivolous. There are probably more than a few collectors who had the same thought process as you do, in the early days of U.S. Large cent collecting when varieties of those were yet unrecognized.

jmcu12 · June 28, 2012 4:33AM

JerseyCat,

While I can appreciate and even understand where you are coming from I think you make an overly general comment. There are some VAM's which are truly scarce (even by mainstream numismatists) but, to your point, there are a lot that are very obscure; and for the latter I would tend to agree.

In the end though, to his/her own.

Cheers all!

paul.

CalGold · June 28, 2012 4:54AM

<< (Top 100, Hot 50, the Hit List 40, and now the Kimpton 12) >>

Even these lists are contrived. Nice round numbers like 100 or 50, and not 97 or 46. So VAMs were thrown in to round out lists that were already the arbitrary selections of a few insiders.

CG

Unknown · June 28, 2012 5:06AM

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mrpotatoheadd · June 28, 2012 5:18AM

<< No matter what cool name you will call them they are incredibly obscure, like putting lipstick on a pig, she still oinks... yada yada yada >>

I would imagine there are people who feel the same way about the coins you choose to collect, too.

In any case, I don't understand the need some people have to make disparaging remarks about coins other people find interesting.

Wolf359 · June 28, 2012 5:21AM

<< I think most knowledgeable collectors have realized that VAMs are nothing more than contrived, artificial rarities. >>

That's why PCGS devotes dozens of different registry sets to VAMs. Because they are contrived.

rawmorgan · June 28, 2012 5:22AM

<< Whether you name these obscure vareities Hot Lips, or Top 50 or anything else it isn't going to change the fact that you typically nned a stereo microscope to see said varieties and that therrin is the crux of the problem. No matter what cool name you will call them they are incredibly obscure, like putting lipstick on a pig, she still oinks, you just can't change what everyone already knows. Now the varieties that you can see without the help of heavy magnification stand on their own merits....and you know that is the way it should be rather than creating something out of nothing....sorry to say all this since a great deal of good numsimatic work has been performed on the subject matter but that doesn't mean value should be added. >>

Using this logic we can assume that Overton, Shelby, Newcomb, Valentine, Snow, Newman, etc variety list should be culled for only obvious (no magnification needed) varieties. Should all half dime varieties be thrown out?

We have this 1878 Vam 9, the first Morgans ever minted. Only 303 or so struck, a nice piece of history, unless your not into small diagnostics.

Wolf359 · June 28, 2012 5:24AM

<< 

<< (Top 100, Hot 50, the Hit List 40, and now the Kimpton 12) >>

Even these lists are contrived. Nice round numbers like 100 or 50, and not 97 or 46. So VAMs were thrown in to round out lists that were already the arbitrary selections of a few insiders.

CG >>

Yes that explains why there are over 150+ coins in the Top 100. Because its a nice round number selected by the elite for the masses.

rawmorgan · June 28, 2012 5:32AM

I think people are confused as to what a VAM is. It seems that folks think that any "variety" however small is considered, that is not true. The VAM catalog is a record of every known die variety by date and mint mark. It is a way of studying that for instance Obverse II/I 37 married with Reverse B/Ad is represented by the VAM 44 series, 1878 Triple Blossoms 7/5 TF in the catalog.

jerseycat101 · June 28, 2012 5:36AM

<< 

<< I think most knowledgeable collectors have realized that VAMs are nothing more than contrived, artificial rarities. >>

That's why PCGS devotes dozens of different registry sets to VAMs. Because they are contrived. >>

PCGS will do anything to appease its shareholders (and rightfully so), so if making registry sets to capitalize on a contrived set of coins is what it takes, then so be it.

johnny9434 · June 28, 2012 5:44AM

<< 

<< I think most knowledgeable collectors have realized that VAMs are nothing more than contrived, artificial rarities. >>

That's why PCGS devotes dozens of different registry sets to VAMs. Because they are contrived. >>

its all a figment of our imagination lmao

coindeuce · June 28, 2012 5:45AM

<< PCGS will do anything to appease its shareholders (and rightfully so), so if making registry sets to capitalize on a contrived set of coins is what it takes, then so be it. >>

I suggest that you reread the rules of this forum real quick, before making further comments of this nature. Otherwise, you may not be around here much longer.

mrpotatoheadd · June 28, 2012 5:52AM

<< I think most knowledgeable collectors have realized that VAMs are nothing more than contrived, artificial rarities. >>

I think most knowledgeable collectors realize that not everybody collects the same things, and what's of interest to one person very well may not be to the next.

LanceNewmanOCC · June 28, 2012 5:52AM

.
thankfully they are still popular since i own a bunch and have sold a bunch over the past 18 months
.

Unknown · June 28, 2012 5:56AM

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mrpotatoheadd · June 28, 2012 6:02AM

<< I choose to collect some of them, but there should be zero added value for any example that is obscure that just makes sense. >>

Why do you get to say what should have added value and what shouldn't? What if others agree there is added value to a variety *you* don't have any interest in? What's wrong with that?

<< I am not demeaning cbhd's or Morgans in any way , >>

Equating what VAM collectors are doing with putting lipstick on a pig is demeaning any way you look at it.

<< We should all be allowed to colelct what we like no matter how obscure in nature... >>

Good so far...

<< but whne premiums are involved they should be rewarded to those examples that stand out, however the love/interest of obscure varieties is no way being questioned or criticized here. >>

but the wheels come off the cart here. You don't get to decide for others what should and what shouldn't command a premium.

CalGold · June 28, 2012 6:11AM

<< The VAM catalog is a record of every known die variety by date and mint mark. >>

Do collectors really want to collect a series on that basis? Most of the die pairings have no particular numismatic or historical importance and cannot readily be distinguished from other pairings of the same year and mint.

And even when VAMs do have historical/numismatic significance they have not always been included on the "Lists". The 78-s and 78-cc long-nocks were struck from the first dies sent to SF and CC,. We find that all SF long-nocks are Top 100 VAMS perhaps since all are scarce and seldom found in MS and include specimen strikings and bring big premiums. The same does not hold true for the CC long-nocks which are common including in mint state, and only a couple have been included in the Top 100 . But historically, they are of equal significance.

CG

mrpotatoheadd · June 28, 2012 6:23AM

<< "The VAM catalog is a record of every known die variety by date and mint mark."

Do collectors really want to collect a series on that basis? >>

People who aren't interested, won't. The fact the list exists at all would seem to indicate at least some level of interest though, wouldn't it?

Unknown · June 28, 2012 6:24AM

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mrpotatoheadd · June 28, 2012 6:39AM

<< So why MrP do do constantly twist what ONE individual says and broaden/stretch it to stand for a mandate? >>

I'm not twisting anything. Here are your words, copied directly as you have written them:

"there should be zero added value for any example that is obscure" - Realone

If you didn't mean that, why did you write it? You might consider that saying "There should be no added value for obscure varieties" is not the same thing as saying "I don't assign any added value for obscure varieties".

BryceM · June 28, 2012 6:45AM

There's an interesting argumentive tone around the boards lately. Maybe we should let the supreme court decide. They seem to be doing a real bang-up job these days.

I'm just glad that not everyone collects what I collect. If they did, I wouldn't be able to afford any of it.

As to the question of the OP, I don't collect Morgans but I do collect Peace Dollars which have a small VAM following. As far as itendifying long-term trends, I don't have the experience of most of the silverbacks around here. For me the really impressive VAMs are of some interest. The "subtle doubling on the designer's initials" VAMs don't really get my pulse up, since it's so hard to even know if you have one or not. I do look for them, but when I identify one it's mostly something that I hope will increase demand or sale price when I'm done owning it. I certianly wouldn't pay for attribution fees unless it was something highly desirable like a finest known example.

rawmorgan · June 28, 2012 6:57AM

<< Whether you name these obscure vareities Hot Lips, or Top 50 or anything else it isn't going to change the fact that you typically nned a stereo microscope to see said varieties and that therrin is the crux of the problem. No matter what cool name you will call them they are incredibly obscure, like putting lipstick on a pig, she still oinks, you just can't change what everyone already knows. Now the varieties that you can see without the help of heavy magnification stand on their own merits....and you know that is the way it should be rather than creating something out of nothing....sorry to say all this since a great deal of good numsimatic work has been performed on the subject matter but that doesn't mean value should be added. >>

I'm not telling folks here to collect VAMs, like VAMs, and I agree that certain vams (the esoteric ones I call them) which can be R6, R7, or R8 should hold no premium if the diagnostic for the die marriage has little dramatic effect. A two millimeter die crack between the "L" and "I" in the headband of LIBERTY does not a variety make, but it does make a VAM. Your analogy of "putting lipstick on a pig doens't change the fact that she still oinks" I took as meaning that VAMs were being artifically deemed a variety where one does not exist. This is the fundamental issue with some of the comments on this thread. Another is jerseycat101's comment about "contrived, artificial rarities." If you step back and look at the VAM project for what it is, a catalog of die marriages which can be identified by diagnostic components called VAMs. A VAM IMO is not a variety, or that was not the intended purpose. Unfortunatly this view of the catalog is not what is prevelant in the mindset of many collectors. They see the VAM as the end result, and not as a tool to identify a die marriage. Since VAMs identify die marriages, they cannot be contrived or artificial.

mrpotatoheadd · June 28, 2012 6:57AM

<< There's an interesting argumentive tone around the boards lately. >>

Guilty as charged, I suppose. But when people post here and equate the things others study and collect with applying porcine makeup, it kind of pisses me off. Nobody says you have to like the same things that other people do, but can't you at least have the common courtesy to not insult them for their collecting interests?

Unknown · June 28, 2012 7:09AM

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Constantine · June 28, 2012 7:09AM

<< 

<< Whether you name these obscure vareities Hot Lips, or Top 50 or anything else it isn't going to change the fact that you typically nned a stereo microscope to see said varieties and that therrin is the crux of the problem. No matter what cool name you will call them they are incredibly obscure, like putting lipstick on a pig, she still oinks, you just can't change what everyone already knows. Now the varieties that you can see without the help of heavy magnification stand on their own merits....and you know that is the way it should be rather than creating something out of nothing....sorry to say all this since a great deal of good numsimatic work has been performed on the subject matter but that doesn't mean value should be added. >>

Using this logic we can assume that Overton, Shelby, Newcomb, Valentine, Snow, Newman, etc variety list should be culled for only obvious (no magnification needed) varieties. Should all half dime varieties be thrown out?

We have this 1878 Vam 9, the first Morgans ever minted. Only 303 or so struck, a nice piece of history, unless your not into small diagnostics. >>

That 1878 VAM 9 is awesome and a great coin for the history of the Morgans. That will be one I have my eye on and something new to hunt for. That is after all what makes collecting fun. Getting the bug planted in your mind and then the fun of the search.

rawmorgan · June 28, 2012 7:27AM

The collecting populous is always going to "name" certain die markers to better remember them, that for instance the 1800 LIBEKTY variety half dime, instead of just calling it a Valentine 2. As to who first named the 1888-O VAM 4, "Hot Lips" who knows.

mrpotatoheadd · June 28, 2012 7:33AM

<< However I also believe that by creat the hot lips desigination or the vam 50 someone was probably trying to cause possibly exaggerated attention ie making greater value than is possibly there by causing attiention to be given to something that doesn't derserve that amount of attention. >>

I believe that is probably the most qualified statement I might have possibly read on this board, maybe. And who knows? It might not even be a figment of an overactive imagination, perhaps.

As far as "something that doesn't derserve that amount of attention" goes, nobody anywhere is saying that you have to give it any. You might, however, want to think about how negative comments posted about others' collecting interests might be perceived by those reading here. I mean- suppose you showed up at another message board only to find numerous snide comments about your collecting interests. How would that make you feel?

rawmorgan · June 28, 2012 7:37AM

VAMs

1887/6

Scarface Terminal Die State

1887 VAM 27

VAM 44 diagnostics

Can't seem to find the AU-53 Hot Lips

Unknown · June 28, 2012 8:39AM

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mrpotatoheadd · June 28, 2012 9:20AM

<< I want and appreciate to hear the truth about what I collect, the good , the bad, and the ugly. >>

Fair enough. But don't you think it's possible such discussions might be more informative if people who don't collect what you do don't use those discussions to make declarations about what is and what is not worth collecting in that particular area? If one doesn't collect VAMs or have much experience with them, for example, it would seem that one's opinions on the subject may not be all that relevant to those who have spent time studying the coins. You think maybe? And if one is determined to say something anyway, what is the harm in framing one's posts in a way that doesn't insult those who do collect the coins one is commenting on or imply that those collectors don't know what they're doing or what's best for them in their collecting persuits?

Unknown · June 28, 2012 9:27AM

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cheezhed · June 28, 2012 9:27AM

VAMS are fun!

jerseycat101 · June 28, 2012 11:53AM

<< 

<< PCGS will do anything to appease its shareholders (and rightfully so), so if making registry sets to capitalize on a contrived set of coins is what it takes, then so be it. >>

I suggest that you reread the rules of this forum real quick, before making further comments of this nature. Otherwise, you may not be around here much longer. >>

You just broke rules 5, 6 and 8.

I broke no rules, as my post was on topic, about US coins, and was not at all critical of any entity.

DeepCoin · June 28, 2012 12:17PM

It seems to me that some folks have twisted the original question. VAMs will always be popular with some collectors as the number of people collecting Morgans is enormous. Has that subset decreased significantly, it is hard to tell. The only way to know is to track the prices in some of the major auctions to see if there is still a premium. More work than I care to do, but I suspect they ebb and flow.

For my part, I see VAMs in the same light as those who collect busties by die marriage. Dedicated collectors who delve into the interesting intracacies of a specific series.

Some collectors will never care about them, and that certainly seems to be some of the posters here. The question was is the general interest (of those who had been interested) waning. Sometimes if you don't have something positive to add, it is better to view from afar.

Justlooking · June 28, 2012 12:37PM

Contrived connotes that alterations to dies were made for the purpose of making the coins that came off those dies valuable. Really doubt that.

Constantine · June 28, 2012 1:57PM

<< It seems to me that some folks have twisted the original question. VAMs will always be popular with some collectors as the number of people collecting Morgans is enormous. Has that subset decreased significantly, it is hard to tell. The only way to know is to track the prices in some of the major auctions to see if there is still a premium. More work than I care to do, but I suspect they ebb and flow.

For my part, I see VAMs in the same light as those who collect busties by die marriage. Dedicated collectors who delve into the interesting intracacies of a specific series.

Some collectors will never care about them, and that certainly seems to be some of the posters here. The question was is the general interest (of those who had been interested) waning. Sometimes if you don't have something positive to add, it is better to view from afar. >>

Good post. Yes the question was about the current popularity and how values have held up or done since the 70s/80s when it seems like many of these lists were put together. My intent wasn't about the validity but rather popularity. With that said though this has been a good discussion and been informative too.

HighRelief · June 28, 2012 2:04PM

I have enjoyed collecting Vam's over the years and searching out the many die varieties that were made with the Morgan and Peace dollar. It is a big task to take on and even more when you are out cherry picking for a certain Vam. For a real challenge I started out just collecting PL and DMPL's in the Top 100 but soon realized I would never complete the Top 100 with just PL examples. I have enjoyed the hunt and still continue with the search to add to my Top 100 set that I have in the PCGS Registry.

For you people in this thread that do not know to much about Vam's here are a few of my favorites.

Photography by BluCC

Zoins · June 28, 2012 2:13PM

Great coins and pics Brian.

The VAM 6 8/7 Spikes looks pretty nice. It should have a cool name like The Devil's 8 or something.

CEOcoinshopcom · June 28, 2012 2:20PM

Super pictures.....

I have a novice type question.....

What is the Vam number for the Pig with Lipstick?

Constantine · June 29, 2012 3:07AM

HighRelief: The great thing about your VAM collection is if one day nobody cared about them you still have gorgeous coins!

Seriously, nice eye on those DMPLs.

DIMEMAN · June 29, 2012 5:59AM

I hope VAM varieties are NOT dead! There are probably more VAM collectors than any of the other variety collectors.

You either like varieties or you think they are stupid. I like varieties very much and hope they never go away. I collect all the dimes and all varieties of dimes except I don't do all the JR numbers on Bust dimes.

The fact that you need magnification doesn't mean anything. People use that as an excuse to not like varieties and put down people who do.

Long live the varieties and the variety collector.

JMHO

Constantine · June 30, 2012 1:38PM

What VAM is the most significant over date?

blu62vette · June 30, 2012 1:47PM

<< What VAM is the most significant over date? >>

This one is pretty good.....

Are Morgan VAMs still popular or do collectors care any more?

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