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bestclser1
Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭
coins being sold on Ebay,one was in a 2nd tir slab,but one was a copy of a Battle Creek coin that the seller probably had no idea was AT,nor the buyer either for that matter.I am a purist,and hate to see some coins being sold at horrific premiums that have slipped by.Thoughts from other collectors and dealers other than not buying them yourself?TIA,Lloyd
Great coins are not cheap,and cheap coins are not great!
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$130. for a coin even SEGS agreed is AT.
you tell us what to do, i still have to think of even a basic solution
maybe watch feedback and contact the buyers
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Sold again (must have been returned by the first buyer).
Edited to fix my links
The name is LEE!
Anyone who likes the pretty colors and pays premiums for them, but also demands "strictly NT only", is bound for eventual disappointment.
If one likes the colors but doesn't care AT vs. NT, then have fun!
To each his own.
For example, should there be disclosure for blue Indians, blue Jeffs, Appalachian Hoard, etc. in top tier holders?
I'm guessing disclosure is/will be required under eBay/PNG rules now or in the future.
Nuff said
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
<< <i>As long as there are those who will pay a premium for the pretty colors sometimes left on tarnished silver, then there will be those who will try to get pretty colors to appear.
Anyone who likes the pretty colors and pays premiums for them, but also demands "strictly NT only", is bound for eventual disappointment.
If one likes the colors but doesn't care AT vs. NT, then have fun!
To each his own. >>
Bingo! The grading companies don't worry if they are AT as long as they are MA---market acceptable.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
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<< <i>As long as there are those who will pay a premium for the pretty colors sometimes left on tarnished silver, then there will be those who will try to get pretty colors to appear.
Anyone who likes the pretty colors and pays premiums for them, but also demands "strictly NT only", is bound for eventual disappointment.
If one likes the colors but doesn't care AT vs. NT, then have fun!
To each his own. >>
Bingo! The grading companies don't worry if they are AT as long as they are MA---market acceptable. >>
However, the TPGs likely worry (a bit) if the coins will become NMA (not market acceptable) in the future after they've been slabbed.
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<< <i>As long as there are those who will pay a premium for the pretty colors sometimes left on tarnished silver, then there will be those who will try to get pretty colors to appear.
Anyone who likes the pretty colors and pays premiums for them, but also demands "strictly NT only", is bound for eventual disappointment.
If one likes the colors but doesn't care AT vs. NT, then have fun!
To each his own. >>
Bingo! The grading companies don't worry if they are AT as long as they are MA---market acceptable. >>
However, the TPGs likely worry (a bit) if the coins will become NMA (not market acceptable) in the future after they've been slabbed. >>
True but that's part of the cost of doing business. Part of the grading fee is insurance that the coin is properly graded and authentic.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
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<< <i>As long as there are those who will pay a premium for the pretty colors sometimes left on tarnished silver, then there will be those who will try to get pretty colors to appear.
Anyone who likes the pretty colors and pays premiums for them, but also demands "strictly NT only", is bound for eventual disappointment.
If one likes the colors but doesn't care AT vs. NT, then have fun!
To each his own. >>
Bingo! The grading companies don't worry if they are AT as long as they are MA---market acceptable. >>
However, the TPGs likely worry (a bit) if the coins will become NMA (not market acceptable) in the future after they've been slabbed. >>
True but that's part of the cost of doing business. Part of the grading fee is insurance that the coin is properly graded and authentic. >>
You still have to manage the costs of doing business. Just saying it's a cost doesn't mean it's not a concern
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<< <i>As long as there are those who will pay a premium for the pretty colors sometimes left on tarnished silver, then there will be those who will try to get pretty colors to appear.
Anyone who likes the pretty colors and pays premiums for them, but also demands "strictly NT only", is bound for eventual disappointment.
If one likes the colors but doesn't care AT vs. NT, then have fun!
To each his own. >>
Bingo! The grading companies don't worry if they are AT as long as they are MA---market acceptable. >>
However, the TPGs likely worry (a bit) if the coins will become NMA (not market acceptable) in the future after they've been slabbed. >>
True but that's part of the cost of doing business. Part of the grading fee is insurance that the coin is properly graded and authentic. >>
You still have to manage the costs of doing business. Just saying it's a cost doesn't mean it's not a concern
Agree. Doesn't their "sniffer? detect ongoing chemical reaction of a coin that's been chemically treated to induce toning?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
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<< <i>As long as there are those who will pay a premium for the pretty colors sometimes left on tarnished silver, then there will be those who will try to get pretty colors to appear.
Anyone who likes the pretty colors and pays premiums for them, but also demands "strictly NT only", is bound for eventual disappointment.
If one likes the colors but doesn't care AT vs. NT, then have fun!
To each his own. >>
Bingo! The grading companies don't worry if they are AT as long as they are MA---market acceptable. >>
However, the TPGs likely worry (a bit) if the coins will become NMA (not market acceptable) in the future after they've been slabbed. >>
True but that's part of the cost of doing business. Part of the grading fee is insurance that the coin is properly graded and authentic. >>
You still have to manage the costs of doing business. Just saying it's a cost doesn't mean it's not a concern
Agree. Doesn't their "sniffer? detect ongoing chemical reaction of a coin that's been chemically treated to induce toning? >>
It does a bunch of things as listed in their press releases and announcements. I think the existence of the sniffer at least indicates TPGs may be worried about NMA toning even if it appears to be MA to the human eye.
It will be interesting to see if we see anymore things like the blue Indians, blue Jeffs, Appalachian Hoard, etc. in top TPG holders in the future.
<< <i>I dont and wont buy any AT coins and dont get fooled very often.I am a big believer in CAC for that reason,even if the TPGs let one slide by,CAC generally serves as a double protection for us all too!JMHO of course! >>
Does CAC actually tell you if they think a coin is AT? Without having to ask, that is.
IMO, nothing. What is NT? Something had to come in contact with the coin to produce toning/color. Trying to draw the line between NT and AT a lot of times is difficult at best.
Taco bell napkin, Wayte Raymond album, a little sulfer or a holder containing sulfer, a little baking, your windowsill etc.
The market will decide if it wants to pay a premium for colorful coins. I say let them color them all.
This will make the coins that have been properly stored stand out as the true NT coins (which doesn't necessarily mean color in my book).
Joe.
Ebay has made it much easier for doctored coins to be mass-marketed to the unwary. You can't stop the supply, I think the hobby can only try to lessen the demand by making it possible for people to learn more about AT coins.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
<< <i>coins being sold on Ebay,one was in a 2nd tir slab,but one was a copy of a Battle Creek coin that the seller probably had no idea was AT,nor the buyer either for that matter.I am a purist,and hate to see some coins being sold at horrific premiums that have slipped by.Thoughts from other collectors and dealers other than not buying them yourself?TIA,Lloyd >>
And how would be able to prove to eBay the coin is AT, especially since you're looking at a photo online which may or may not be of good quality?
However, you might also end up with "environmental damage"...but NT is essentially natural oxidation...and if leaving your coins out on the counter for a few months is how it happens...well that's natural science at work.
set up an educational website that explains the situation to the less astute
<< <i>Mind our own business..... >>
THIS!!!!
How do you know (OP) that people that buy these coins aren't FULLY AWARE of their condition? Maybe they just LIKE them!!!!
People need to MIND their own business!!!!
....and no I don't sell on ebay, these are not my coins, nor do I even know the seller...
Successful BST xactions w/PCcoins, Drunner, Manofcoins, Rampage, docg, Poppee, RobKool, and MichealDixon.
1) Refuse to buy them
2) Educate collectors
3) Understand that the number of high-quality coins available to collectors is constantly decreasing. Mishandling, loss, melting, and abuse (doctoring) continually work to make rare coins rare. Therefore the ones we already have should theoretically become more valuable.
4) Support legitimate TPGs and orginizations like PCGS, ANA, etc. that work to detect, fix, and/or remove these coins from the scene.
5) If people still want to buy them, then I suppose those coins are, by definition, market acceptable to them. I have a blatantly toned Peace Dollar that I like simply 'cuz it's pretty. (I've obviously already violated #1 above!) Buying a doctored coin is just one of the many ways a person can be taken in this market.
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<< <i>Mind our own business..... >>
THIS!!!!
How do you know (OP) that people that buy these coins aren't FULLY AWARE of their condition? Maybe they just LIKE them!!!!
People need to MIND their own business!!!!
....and no I don't sell on ebay, these are not my coins, nor do I even know the seller... >>
If that $3,500. Morgan was in a PCGS code 91 Genuine Only slab, would it have sold for anything close to that amount to those same "I-don't-care-if-it's-AT-I-just-like-them" collectors?
<< <i>Agree. Doesn't their "sniffer? detect ongoing chemical reaction of a coin that's been chemically treated to induce toning? >>
I think the Sniffer simply detects the presence of specific substances. And it's only used on SecurePlus submissions with a few exceptions.
Lance.
<< <i>So i should mind my own business.OK great answer to the couple of folks who advised that.No problem.
Lloyd, anyone who declares they don't care if a coin is AT or NT is either deluding himself, others, or both.
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<< <i>So i should mind my own business.OK great answer to the couple of folks who advised that.No problem.
Lloyd, anyone who declares they don't care if a coin is AT or NT is either deluding himself, others, or both. >>
I know Pat,good luck to them.
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<< <i>Mind our own business..... >>
THIS!!!!
How do you know (OP) that people that buy these coins aren't FULLY AWARE of their condition? Maybe they just LIKE them!!!!
People need to MIND their own business!!!!
....and no I don't sell on ebay, these are not my coins, nor do I even know the seller... >>
If that $3,500. Morgan was in a PCGS code 91 Genuine Only slab, would it have sold for anything close to that amount to those same "I-don't-care-if-it's-AT-I-just-like-them" collectors? >>
WHO KNOWS! I don't know, but I would say that YOU don't know either! Does anyone know why someone is willing to buy anything???? Many of my friends/family would think that I have fallen off of my rocker when I spend 4 figures on a coin that they would consider to worth nothing more than face value. The point is that it is no ones business as to how each of us spends our money. As long as it's not illegal, why should you care??? If you don't like AT coins, don't buy them. I don't like AT coins, I don't buy them. Does my aversion to them give me the right to tell someone that they can't sell them????
Successful BST xactions w/PCcoins, Drunner, Manofcoins, Rampage, docg, Poppee, RobKool, and MichealDixon.
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<< <i>Mind our own business..... >>
THIS!!!!
How do you know (OP) that people that buy these coins aren't FULLY AWARE of their condition? Maybe they just LIKE them!!!!
People need to MIND their own business!!!!
....and no I don't sell on ebay, these are not my coins, nor do I even know the seller... >>
If that $3,500. Morgan was in a PCGS code 91 Genuine Only slab, would it have sold for anything close to that amount to those same "I-don't-care-if-it's-AT-I-just-like-them" collectors? >>
WHO KNOWS! I don't know, but I would say that YOU don't know either! Does anyone know why someone is willing to buy anything???? Many of my friends/family would think that I have fallen off of my rocker when I spend 4 figures on a coin that they would consider to worth nothing more than face value. The point is that it is no ones business as to how each of us spends our money. As long as it's not illegal, why should you care??? If you don't like AT coins, don't buy them. I don't like AT coins, I don't buy them. Does my aversion to them give me the right to tell someone that they can't sell them????
Yes. Yes, it does.
<< <i>bestclser1> Someone payed 3100 for an 04-O in a holder that was doctored,and Mike De Falco said to me two years ago,about 6 months before his death that he knew the coin was AT.Even outed a guy named Alex as the doctor.Thats alot of money for a copy,and it just plain disgusts me.I understand Lauras frustration from Legend and other dealers that are fighting against messed with coins!Pat the other coin was only 130,and was pretty at that,but at least the buyer knew what he was getting.
<< <i>braddick> Closed May 25th at $3,500.
Sold again (must have been returned by the first buyer). >>
It's PCGS 7292.64/15828811. Good to see eBay listing the TPG and cert number now.
Sold for $3,500 and then $3,100. Wow.
If I was bidding, I would appreciate some history on the coin, so thanks to those willing to speak up.
Also thanks to PCGS and the PNG for working against doctoring! Keep it up!
This coin is a PCGS holder and the OP is calling it AT???
Surprised this thread hasn't gone Poof!!!
.....along with a sternly worded email from DW!
Successful BST xactions w/PCcoins, Drunner, Manofcoins, Rampage, docg, Poppee, RobKool, and MichealDixon.
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<< <i>Mind our own business..... >>
THIS!!!!
How do you know (OP) that people that buy these coins aren't FULLY AWARE of their condition? Maybe they just LIKE them!!!!
People need to MIND their own business!!!!
....and no I don't sell on ebay, these are not my coins, nor do I even know the seller... >>
That's a nice, pat, answer. Sounds REALLY good on the surface, doesn't it?
The issue with following that path you prescribe is that it can lead to more problems and really isn't ethical to do.
For instance, it is ok to discipline, even physically, your child. However, is there a certain point at which you, as an observer and bystander, would step in if a father took off his belt and started really whacking the child hard? What if it was an infant? Now a toddler? Now a pre-teen? Now a teen?
Morals are what make our society function better. With no morals, society heads downhill.
I see no problem, in cases where it is very clear that there is an issue, with stepping in and giving warnings and information to people. Just because someone is new doesn't mean it is ok for them to be taken advantage of. If the person says "yep....I know what I am buying", then great, they will buy it. No harm no foul. If not, then why not warn them? Better to let the morally bankrupt person take advantage of them and just stay out of it? Sad.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>What????
This coin is a PCGS holder and the OP is calling it AT???
Surprised this thread hasn't gone Poof!!!
.....along with a sternly worded email from DW!
I imagine a strongly worded email from DW would say beware of AT in top TPG holders!
After all, he does mention putty that doctors have been able to get into our host's slabs on his blog.
We need to work together against coin doctors and to protect collectors from getting taken by them IMO.
Why concern yourself with what other people buy and sell?
<< <i>What would you have people do - go around smashing AT coins with a hammer? >>
The discussion is about disclosure so people know what they are buying. This is covered by Truth-in Advertising rules, eBay and the PNG.
<< <i>Why concern yourself with what other people buy and sell? >>
There are both ethical / moral issues and financial issues involved. Ethically and morally, is it ok to allow collectors to be taken advantage of? The PNG Code of Ethics suggests that it is not acceptable. Additionally, there are financial considerations as undisclosed, doctored coins can reduce the value of legitimate coins.
So without proper disclosure, both collectors that are unaware lose and collectors that are aware lose financially due to the actions of doctors.
<< <i>I dont and wont buy any AT coins and dont get fooled very often.I am a big believer in CAC for that reason,even if the TPGs let one slide by,CAC generally serves as a double protection for us all too!JMHO of course! >>
While CAC serves a useful function, they are no more the say all end all than this forum is.
The REAL PROBLEM with AT'ed coins is all the hoopla and whooping folks due over a colorful coin which will eventually turn black.
Do people honestly believe that a coin will tone up to some brilliant array of colors and then all of a sudden stop?
Toning is progressive. Light to dark and short of encasing a coin in Lucite, it's just not going to stop since it the natural progression of deterioration.
What isn't deteriorating is the hype revolving around toned coins which make folks feel comfortable with paying 10x or 15x actual value for some toned wonder.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>7. To refrain from knowingly dealing in counterfeit, altered, repaired or "doctored" numismatic items without fully disclosing their status to my customer. Coin doctoring refers to the alteration of any portion of a coin, when that process includes any of the following: 1) Movement, addition to, or otherwise altering of metal, so that a coin appears to be in a better state of preservation, or more valuable than it otherwise would be. A few examples are plugging, whizzing, polishing, engraving, "lasering" and adding or removing mint marks. 2) Addition of any substance to a coin so that it appears to be in a better state of preservation or more valuable than it otyherwise would be. The use of solvents and/or commercially available dilute acids, such as Jeweluster, by qualified professionals is not considered coin doctoring. 3) Intentional exposure of a coin to any chemicals, substances, or processes which impart toning, such that the coin appears to be in a better state of preservation or more valuable than it otherwise would be. Naturally occuring tonining imparted during long-term storage using established/traditional methods, such as coin albums, rolls, flips, or envelopes, does not consitute coin doctoring. >>
Thanks to the PNG, John Albanese, and Laura Sperber!
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Nuff said >>
Both of the above are AT but I don't really care since neither one cost me a small fortune to acquire. The seller was up front that they were AT when asked.
I find this type of blatant AT to be no different than adding stickers or enamel to a coins surface to highlight the devices.
Once folks stop paying dream values for toned coins, then the toned coin market will settle down.
The name is LEE!
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Both of the above are AT but I don't really care since neither one cost me a small fortune to acquire. The seller was up front that they were AT when asked.
I find this type of blatant AT to be no different than adding stickers or enamel to a coins surface to highlight the devices. >>
I wondered who would buy those. Good to know. And yes, disclosure is the key which was done in this case but not in the case of the 1904-O above.
<< <i>Once folks stop paying dream values for toned coins, then the toned coin market will settle down. >>
That's one way but hopefully doctoring will become less financially attractive due to reasons other than market collapse
Hopefully this is already happening due to the efforts of PCGS, the PNG, etc.
<< <i>I just checked the PNG Code of Ethics again and I'm happy to see the new text on the page:
<< <i>7. To refrain from knowingly dealing in counterfeit, altered, repaired or "doctored" numismatic items without fully disclosing their status to my customer. Coin doctoring refers to the alteration of any portion of a coin, when that process includes any of the following: 1) Movement, addition to, or otherwise altering of metal, so that a coin appears to be in a better state of preservation, or more valuable than it otherwise would be. A few examples are plugging, whizzing, polishing, engraving, "lasering" and adding or removing mint marks. 2) Addition of any substance to a coin so that it appears to be in a better state of preservation or more valuable than it otyherwise would be. The use of solvents and/or commercially available dilute acids, such as Jeweluster, by qualified professionals is not considered coin doctoring. 3) Intentional exposure of a coin to any chemicals, substances, or processes which impart toning, such that the coin appears to be in a better state of preservation or more valuable than it otherwise would be. Naturally occuring tonining imparted during long-term storage using established/traditional methods, such as coin albums, rolls, flips, or envelopes, does not consitute coin doctoring. >>
Thanks to the PNG, John Albanese, and Laura Sperber! >>
I agree and Thank PCGS and the PNG and Laura and JA!IF TRYING TO HELP AWARENESS IS BAD I APOLOGIZE FOR THAT!
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<< <i>Mind our own business..... >>
THIS!!!!
How do you know (OP) that people that buy these coins aren't FULLY AWARE of their condition? Maybe they just LIKE them!!!!
People need to MIND their own business!!!!
....and no I don't sell on ebay, these are not my coins, nor do I even know the seller... >>
That's a nice, pat, answer. Sounds REALLY good on the surface, doesn't it?
The issue with following that path you prescribe is that it can lead to more problems and really isn't ethical to do.
For instance, it is ok to discipline, even physically, your child. However, is there a certain point at which you, as an observer and bystander, would step in if a father took off his belt and started really whacking the child hard? What if it was an infant? Now a toddler? Now a pre-teen? Now a teen?
Morals are what make our society function better. With no morals, society heads downhill.
I see no problem, in cases where it is very clear that there is an issue, with stepping in and giving warnings and information to people. Just because someone is new doesn't mean it is ok for them to be taken advantage of. If the person says "yep....I know what I am buying", then great, they will buy it. No harm no foul. If not, then why not warn them? Better to let the morally bankrupt person take advantage of them and just stay out of it? Sad. >>
So you have taken the step to compare a transaction entered into freely by two individuals, to that of an act that is criminal!!!??? I think beating anyone is ILLEGAL!!!!
Where do you propose to stop this moral intervention??? When granny way overpays for a car should the salesperson be arrested? When everyone that bought a house in the mid 2000's and now realizes they are "underwater" on their mortgage should we pursue the sellers and demand restitution? You see it goes on and on.... for whatever reasons there are some people that are hell bent on protecting us from ourselves. The nanny state is closer than we think.........
Successful BST xactions w/PCcoins, Drunner, Manofcoins, Rampage, docg, Poppee, RobKool, and MichealDixon.
For example, eBay has the following policy for coins:
<< <i>Include all information about any alterations that may have been made to the item. >>
It's not up to you or anyone else how a person spends their money on a legal activity!!!!
If I agree to pay 1,000.00 on a circulated 2011 business strike quarter worth 25 cents are you obligated to tell me not to do it????
Successful BST xactions w/PCcoins, Drunner, Manofcoins, Rampage, docg, Poppee, RobKool, and MichealDixon.
<< <i>It's not up to you or anyone else how a person spends their money on a legal activity!!!! >>
Some sales may violate Truth-in Advertising rules and marketplace policies. The FTC POLICY STATEMENT ON DECEPTION specifically mentions omissions of a material nature.
As mentioned, eBay policy may have been violated as well.
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<< <i>As long as there are those who will pay a premium for the pretty colors sometimes left on tarnished silver, then there will be those who will try to get pretty colors to appear.
Anyone who likes the pretty colors and pays premiums for them, but also demands "strictly NT only", is bound for eventual disappointment.
If one likes the colors but doesn't care AT vs. NT, then have fun!
To each his own. >>
Bingo! The grading companies don't worry if they are AT as long as they are MA---market acceptable. >>
However, the TPGs likely worry (a bit) if the coins will become NMA (not market acceptable) in the future after they've been slabbed. >>
Kinda like Milk Spots developing on PR/MS70 SAE's?
The name is LEE!