<< <i>I do find it alarming that eBay is now questioning the integrity of top tier TPG slabs..for whatever reason. Unless there are obvious signs of tampering/counterfeiting...on what grounds are they now claiming to stand? >>
This seems like the latest in eBay taking into account what knowledgable collectors talk about on these (and other) forums and making it into eBay policy, e.g. third world slabs, replica/COPY counterfeits, AT in top TPG slabs. All these things have been discussed on these forums for long periods of time as serious impediments to the hobby. It seems only natural eBay would take the pulse of the collector community and try to make their marketplace safer. I wouldn't be surprised if the eBay Coin Community Watch group is made up of collectors with similar background to the people concerned about these topics on this and other forums.
Taking the pulse of the responses here, there seem to be a few types of responses:
(a) AT in top TPG slab (b) not AT (c) it's a top TPG so leave it be
If these opinions are from knowledgable collectors and you wanted to create a safer marketplace, what would you do?
Think about this. What if you wanted to run a credible marketplace and certain blue AT coins that have been known to make it into top TPG slabs placed for sale on your marketplace. When these coins come up on your marketplace, the message boards light up with threads saying they are so AT and that the TPG does not certify them anymore. What service would you be providing your customers if AT was not disclosed?
With respect to the stated policy, it really only follows what people say here and what is listed on the PNG Code of Ethics for disclosure:
<< <i>These coins have been artificially toned the listing failed to disclose this[....] You will need to disclose that the coins have been artificially toned, and state what process was used in order to relist the coins. >>
Lots of good insight here and, while I still have no official insight on why eBay cancelled the auctions for these coins, I think what you are seeing is the result of eBay engaging more in the coin business because they realize they have left a lot of potential on the table by not paying more attention (sooner). Some of it is heavy-handed and some is graceful but the point is they are really excited about making the coin part of their web site much better. I know that for a fact, and I have been working with them directly in a number of ways. (Note: I have not been involved in any of the community watch programs).
Other other comment I'd like to make is that most folks don't realize just how many coins sell every day on eBay. Other than Heritage or Stack-Bowers, no other platform comes close and I think that's a very big deal. Sure, you can move your auctions to other platforms, etc but eBay is one of the world's most important e-commerce platforms and I think they are the #1 source for new coin collectors in our hobby. Just my 2-cents...
<< <i>Lots of good insight here and, while I still have no official insight on why eBay cancelled the auctions for these coins, I think what you are seeing is the result of eBay engaging more in the coin business because they realize they have left a lot of potential on the table by not paying more attention (sooner). Some of it is heavy-handed and some is graceful but the point is they are really excited about making the coin part of their web site much better. I know that for a fact, and I have been working with them directly in a number of ways. (Note: I have not been involved in any of the community watch programs).
Other other comment I'd like to make is that most folks don't realize just how many coins sell every day on eBay. Other than Heritage or Stack-Bowers, no other platform comes close and I think that's a very big deal. Sure, you can move your auctions to other platforms, etc but eBay is one of the world's most important e-commerce platforms and I think they are the #1 source for new coin collectors in our hobby. Just my 2-cents... >>
Adding to this they just managed to get Legend back into the fold. They pursued Legend. Maybe, just maybe they are making a concerted effort to clean up some of the mess and they are "over doing" it in the name of coin valor. MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<<This seems like the latest in eBay taking into account what knowledgable collectors talk about on these (and other) forums and making it into eBay policy, e.g. third world slabs, replica/COPY counterfeits, AT in top TPG slabs. >>
This is all well and good...EXCEPT...that just because we might grouse that a coin doesn't "look right" or "isn't for me"...unless we've held it in our hands and examined it using whatever the current state of the art equipment is/was...like a top TPG...then we're only being a bunch of cranks.
If eBay is now making it fair game to invalidate a legitimate slab based solely on the "good word" of people like us (as well intentioned at that may be)...well then, we're essentially saying that no coin...in any slab...regardless of how many experts have examined it prior to being encapsulated, is really safe from either innocent or malicious second-guessing...and that's just plain wrong!
Really...they should just drop the Paypal buyer protection crap for coins and get it over with (oh that's right...they wouldn't want to do that...because then they couldn't FORCE you to use Paypal...with all of its attendant fees anymore!). This is just plain getting scary now.
And PS...for all those people who don't like white/dipped coins...how are all those colorful older slabs looking now if this policy actually gains serious traction in the future?
At the rate we're going, I can actually see a day when only the latest NGC Edgeview and PCGS generation of slabs will be acceptable for listing on eBay (sorry that's an "older" slab...and standards have changed...so you can't list it anymore)!
<< <i>This seems like the latest in eBay taking into account what knowledgable collectors talk about on these (and other) forums and making it into eBay policy, e.g. third world slabs, replica/COPY counterfeits, AT in top TPG slabs. >>
This is all well and good...EXCEPT...that just because we might grouse that a coin doesn't "look right" or "isn't for me"...unless we've held it in our hands and examined it using whatever the current state of the art equipment is/was...like a top TPG...then we're only being a bunch of cranks.
If eBay is now making it fair game to invalidate a legitimate slab based solely on the "good word" of people like us (as well intentioned at that may be)...well then, we're essentially saying that no coin...in any slab...regardless of how many experts have examined it prior to being encapsulation, is really safe from either innocent or malicious second-guessing...and that's just plain wrong! >>
One thing I would mention is that it's not always just community forum members. Top TPGs will stop slabbing AT coins if they realize they've been fooled by the coin doctors; however, the previously slabbed coins remain in the market and can show up on eBay and other marketplaces. Under a strict reading of the PNG Code of Ethics, the AT needs to be disclosed. For those coins, it's probably reasonable to ask for disclosure if everyone in the know knows they are AT, e.g. a thread is started here and there is general acknowledgement they are not market acceptable from both collectors and the TPG that slabbed it in the first place.
So far, nobody seems to have responded to the points I raised in my last post, which does not come as any surprise.
I do get the sense that there are those who believe that a top TPG's word should be the final one and I could not agree less. My own experience with a top tier TPG when I chose to break the coin out of its slab - because I was not interested in keeping it in the slab - was to discover that holes had been drilled in the top and bottom of the coin, as it had previously been mounted and it would have been evident to anyone inspecting or grading the coin.
TPGs will grade cleaned coins and tooled coins and note these facts on the slab's label, so an artificially toned coin - and most of them are toned artificially - should be similarly noted on the label.
So Ebay still remains a haven for the multitude of counterfeit Rolex watches / accessories, and only sometimes do they pull the obvious Chinese garbage "estate finds" and "this was my dads watch" listings, yet they are now pulling PCGS graded toned coins?
<< <i>So far, nobody seems to have responded to the points I raised in my last post, which does not come as any surprise. >>
RichR did respond to your post saying:
<< <i>I've attended major shows where practically a dealer's entire table consists of highly toned and extremely colorful slabs...so it's not impossible to have lots of toned inventory...especially if that's "your thing." >>
Of course, we all know that's possible, but he didn't say if he thought those were AT or NT.
<< I've attended major shows where practically a dealer's entire table consists of highly toned and extremely colorful slabs...so it's not impossible to have lots of toned inventory...especially if that's "your thing. >>
<<Of course, we all know that's possible, but he didn't say if he thought those were AT or NT. >>
OK...let me just say this...do I think I'm a pretty fair to good grader...yes. Do I think I'm as good a grader under harsh flourescent lights on a bourse floor with a 5x or 10x loop...as some guy sitting in essentially in a sterile setting with an electron microscope and a chemistry lab backing him up? Absolutely not.
But that having been said...isn't that why we're all turning over millions of dollars annually to alledged experts...so that their decisions will be respected and accepted within the hobby/industry? Otherwise, what's the point of all this? Unless we're all misinterpreting what seems to be happening here...we have a generalized internet auction site (that just happens to also accept coin listings)...second-guessing who we in the industry acknowledge (and pay) to be the experts. If a major new bright line re eBay listing policies is about to be crossed...this may be it.
And for full disclosure...until the mid to late '90s, I was also loathe to pay a third party to grade any elements in my collection...but as that was obviously the direction the hobby was moving in...I [reluctantly] climbed on board....and doled out lots of money for the "honor" accordingly. So now what? All [authentic] slabs are suspect if the coin looks too exotic or too good to be true? And some mysterious eBay Star Chamber Court of busybodies is going to now be the final arbiter of acceptable numismatic merchandise? Excuse me?
And PS...since the banned ANA slab uproar a couple of weeks back, I've been comparing the recent policies regarding eBay coin sales to the selling of used cars on eBay motors. Unless an eBay authorized mechanic now needs to come out and take your car for a spin before it can be listed on their site...I'm not understanding the sudden Draconian policies and focus on numismatic "integrity"?
And maybe we [all] shouldn't have been so fast to start alerting eBay to "That's a fake" and "This is obviously bogus"...because they now seem to be getting just plain paranoid...even with legitimate items!
With suggestions that PCGs should essentially be the final arbiter, that they can do no wrong - as if! - and the further suggestion that genuine items are being removed by eBay because of paranoia, this thread has descended into farce and reminds me of the reasons that I rarely post messages here and why I should not do so again.
For the record, I often spot listings that are removed and in my opinion, they are invariably removed for good reasons that are consistent with eBay rules, including images that are so poor that buyers are at risk, and the Hobby Protection Act, with which eBay must comply.
<<For the record, I often spot listings that are removed and in my opinion, they are invariably removed for good reasons that are consistent with eBay rules, including images that are so poor that buyers are at risk, and the Hobby Protection Act, with which eBay must comply. >>
So now authentic PCGS (and likely NGC) slabs can be removed from eBay listings because...somebody remotely doesn't like the look of them...although they are legitimate and can be verified to be such? Because that seems to be where we are now.
So, if true...what does paying to have a TPG "Certify" your coin mean exactly?
The thing about TPG grading is that it can change over time, for example if a style of toning is exposed to be created by coin doctors. Additionally, not all TPG grading is the same, e.g. some coins go through the sniffer and some do not. There should be more confidence with coins that went through the sniffer IMO.
One question is what to do with top TPG slabbed coins after a style of toning is exposed to be artifically created by coin doctors. At a minimum, there should be disclosure per the PNG Code of Ethics when the coin is offered or sold. Ideally, the coin would also be removed from the top TPG slab.
As for what a TPG certification means, it is an opinion and a guarantee. Perhaps with some marketplace changes, previously slabbed-AT coins will be turned in for the guarantee instead of being continued to be sold, leading to a clean up of the marketplace.
As for where we are, it seems like we've reached the point of trying to protect the consumer and improve the reputation of the top TPGs.
<< <i>So now authentic PCGS (and likely NGC) slabs can be removed from eBay listings because...somebody remotely doesn't like the look of them...although they are legitimate and can be verified to be such? Because that seems to be where we are now.
So, if true...what does paying to have a TPG "Certify" your coin mean exactly? >>
What it means is that you would hope that such certification should not be applied to coins that have been tampered with. After all, cleaned coins are described as such but what I think happened here is that when the coin docs started artificially toning their coins, the TPGs got caught with their pants down, having already graded abused coins before they realised what was happening. They should have held their hands up and admitted their mistake but instead carried on grading these horrors.
Don't lay the blame for the well-intentioned actions taken on eBay at the instigation of those who want to protect the hobby and make eBay safer, blame the greedy coin docs who created the coins and the TPGs who made it so easy for them.
If anyone is up for it...I think we should conduct our own "integrity" test....if you will: I think a member of this board should offer a legitimate highly toned, extremely colorful slabbed Morgan for sale...and then a couple of us should contact eBay and claim it's AT...
And I'm willing to bet that the listing gets pulled on nothing more than our "report"...and, if so, that is just plain wrong!
<< <i>If anyone is up for it...I think we should conduct our own "integrity" test....if you will: I think a member of this board should offer a legitimate highly toned, extremely colorful slabbed Morgan for sale...and then a couple of us should contact eBay and claim it's AT...
And I'm willing to bet that the listing gets pulled on nothing more than our "report"...and, if so, that is just plain wrong! >>
Do we need to test that?
I think based on the preponderance of information we already have about eBay that what you said is SPOT ON.
If 3 or 4 people complain they panick and clear the listing. End of complaints
I think it would be good...because once this door is opened, why will a possibly AT coin be the only flagable issue?
Maybe I'll look at a slabbed coin and say, I think that PCGS/NGC slabbed coin has been dipped/cleaned/whizzed/not worthy of its grade...you name it...and report it as such. And then we'll be in completely uncharted waters....and need I say...in an excellent position to screw around with other sellers that we don't really like!
I think it would be good...because once this door is opened, why will a possibly AT coin be the only flagable issue? >>
Has the door been open and well trodden? Didn't many people want (and use) a feedback mechanism like this to get rid of counterfeits? It seems like members of these boards have long reported suspect coins to eBay.
In the past, coins would need to be voluntarily turned in for the grade guarantee. With some more proactive measures, perhaps some of the more notable AT coins will be traded less and turned in more.
<<< Don't lay the blame for the well-intentioned actions taken on eBay at the instigation of those who want to protect the hobby and make eBay safer, >>>
I see............so a company that did over 12 BILLION in revenues last year does not feel it important enough to cough up salaries for qualified numismatic experts to oversee their website, yet they act on the free and unsolicited 'reports' of a bunch of people who now think they know more than the graders at PCGS about toning? Makes perfect sense to me,
<< <i>So far, nobody seems to have responded to the points I raised in my last post, which does not come as any surprise. I do get the sense that there are those who believe that a top TPG's word should be the final one and I could not agree less. My own experience with a top tier TPG when I chose to break the coin out of its slab - because I was not interested in keeping it in the slab - was to discover that holes had been drilled in the top and bottom of the coin, as it had previously been mounted and it would have been evident to anyone inspecting or grading the coin. TPGs will grade cleaned coins and tooled coins and note these facts on the slab's label, so an artificially toned coin - and most of them are toned artificially - should be similarly noted on the label. >>
Ever heard of specialization? Using your logic, it appears some dealers live in an area where all they have is early copper coins. Some only have classic gold coins. Some seem to have an unusually high concentration of Classic Commemoratives. And sadly, some live in areas where there are only overpriced problem coins. Fortunately, there are some dealers who live in areas with a lot of PQ coins. --Jerry
<< <i>Don't lay the blame for the well-intentioned actions taken on eBay at the instigation of those who want to protect the hobby and make eBay safer, blame the greedy coin docs who created the coins and the TPGs who made it so easy for them. >>
There is nowhere else to lay the blame.
PCGS put their name on the line and backed that name up with a guaranty.
Meanwhile, eBay, 1) created a black box process; 2) handed the reigns of that process to faceless individuals; and 3) allows that faceless group to operate on a case by case basis seemingly targeting random auctions.
For the three PCGS slabs that got pulled you can currently find 283 auction format coins with a "rainbow" description in their title. 5 of the first 6 coins I see are highly suspect Morgan dollars with colorful "toning". Yet, there they sit. Being given more leniency than the ops PCGS slabbed coins.
So to whom is this group accountable when it only applies its set of unknown standards to just some sellers/coins/slabs?
<<Didn't many people want (and use) a feedback mechanism like this to get rid of counterfeits?>>
However, this policy now seems to be moving well past counterfiets...and into the subjective realm of "It might be..." and/or "It looks like..." while also being totally at odds with the stated condition on a REAL slab.
<< <i><<Didn't many people want (and use) a feedback mechanism like this to get rid of counterfeits?>>
However, this policy now seems to be moving well past counterfiets...and into the subjective realm of "It might be..." and/or "It looks like..." while also being totally at odds with the stated condition of a REAL slab. >>
Sometimes the stated condition on the real slab is a mistake that has been recognized by the TPG going forward, however many already-slabbed coins remain in the marketplace. I think the following being sold for $118.50 on Feb 12, 2012 isn't really good for the reputation of our host or eBay. One question is once coins like this are recognized to be AT, what do you do about them? According to the PNG Code of Ethics, the AT should be disclosed during a sale. The eBay policy simply asks for such disclosure.
But to just prove how slippery this slope can be, I own at least 2 nickels (although not likely in PR68) from the early '60s that are just as colorful as that coin...and are still sealed in the original Mint cello flat pack.
And...if it is AT...isn't the vast majority of the value of that coin residing in the numerical grade and not the color?
<< <i>But to just prove how slippery this slope can be, I own at least 2 nickels (although not likely in PR68) from the early '60s that are just as colorful as that coin...and are still sealed in the original cello bag. >>
Unfortunately, that's the situation we are in because of coin doctors. When these coins come up, people point out the AT, the history, and the fact that PCGS doesn't slab them anymore. However, they are still sold to unsuspecting collectors without full disclosure. It doesn't look good for the TPG or the marketplace to have these being sold with undisclosed AT.
<< <i>And...if it is AT...isn't the vast majority of the value of that coin residing in the numerical grade and not the color? >>
The PCGS Price Guide price is $32 vs. a sale price of $118.50 so I'd venture to guess most of the price is a collector and TPG getting fooled by a coin doctor.
<<The PCGS Price Guide price is $32 vs. a sale price of $118.50 so I'd venture to guess most of the price is a collector and TPG getting fooled by a coin doctor. >>
Serious question...I cut open a 1964 proof set...and leave the nickel sitting on a clean handkerchief on my dresser...and 3-6-12 months (or however long) later it turns deep blue with some red streaks. Is that AT? Is it slabbable? Am I a criminal? Because if the answer is yes to any of the above...then all the magical Morgan bag toning and inside grandpa's desk drawer toning stories we've all heard...are highly suspect!
And as for people simply being willing to pay too much to own "ultra gem" high quality registry coins...such is life. Case in point, if anyone is willing to sell my hard pack, non-CC GSA Morgans at strictly list price...I'd be willing to entertain offers!
<< <i>The PCGS Price Guide price is $32 vs. a sale price of $118.50 so I'd venture to guess most of the price is a collector and TPG getting fooled by a coin doctor. >>
Serious question...I cut open a 1964 proof set...and leave the nickel sitting on a clean handkerchief on my dresser...and 3/6/12 months later it turns deep blue. Is that AT? Is it slabbable? Am I a criminal? Because if the answer is yes to any of the above...then all the magical Morgan bag toning and inside grandpa desk drawer toning stories we've all heard...are highly suspect! >>
Let's stick to the coin at hand and not hypotheticals. The coin in question is no longer market acceptable to the TPG that slabbed it. It is also generally accepted as an AT coin. Do you think the seller should disclose that fact per the PNG Code of Ethics or other personal ethics?
<<Do you think the seller should disclose that fact per the PNG Code of Ethics or other personal ethics? >>
Actually, I think the owner of this coin should contact PCGS and inquire as to how they can either be made whole or at least mitigate the damage done in placing their faith in the stated condition on this slab. Then based on that conversation, I would determine how to proceed from there. And, that might include having PCGS expertly dip/conserve that nickel using Jeweluster...or some approved equal.
And I'm not dealing with hypotheticals...at a major show you can usually pick out every color of the rainbow...sometimes in the same display case...and sometimes on the same coin! And those coins are usually being sold as premium inventory, not as damaged goods with a mea culpa!
<< <i><<Do you think the seller should disclose that fact per the PNG Code of Ethics or other personal ethics? >>
Actually, I think the owner of this coin should contact PCGS and inquire as to how they can either be made whole or at least mitigate the damage done in placing their faith in the stated condition on this slab. Then based on that conversation, I would determine how to proceed from there. And, that might include having PCGS expertly dip/conserve that nickel using Jeweluster...or some approved equal. >>
If the coin is no longer market acceptable and the seller still wishes to sell it with the condition undisclosed (as it was), do you think a marketplace is doing customers a favor by not requiring disclosure? Consider that the TPG no longer grades the coins, knowledgable forum members actively create threads about the coins (and this is by no means the first thread on these toners), and the PNG Code of Ethics requires disclosure.
Didn't they make about 7 billion 1964 jefferson nickles?
With such a large number its almost a given that one or 2 would be used to make a purchase from an ice cream truck.
that particular nickle tumbled into the ice cream trucks freezer and became lodged at the tip of a rocket pop where it acquired its deep blue coloring in a very natural manner
<<If the coin is no longer market acceptable and the seller still wishes to sell it with the condition undisclosed (as it was), do you think a marketplace is doing customers a favor by not requiring disclosure?>>
And I repeat...that the current owner should be having a discussion with the responsible TPG that was paid for a service that ultimately turned out to be faulty.
But, once again, I'm asking how exactly these determinations are being made remotely based on a few photos...that are now, in effect, overriding an actual physical examination/grading process. There are quite a lot of legitimately toned coins out there...and some, especially nickets, can be quite vivid.
And I'll go one step further...and call it hypothetical if you like...a person buys a slabbed coin...puts it away in a safe deposit box for 10 or 20 years...and then decides to sell it. They list the grade, the grading service and their price. For the average seller...where exactly does this magical Code of Ethics come in? They own an an item and are stating the condition to the best of their knowledge...in fact, they're stating the condition based on the knowledge of an expert who was paid to grade said coin. And now eBay is going to step in and say, "Sorry, we not only think PCGS/NGC was wrong. We're actually going to assume they're wrong and block you from making a sale. And we're going to do this because somebody who doesn't work for us had a hunch! And have a nice day."
By definition-if PCGS or any other top-tier TPG slabs a toned coin in a normal holder (as opposed to a Genuine Not Gradable slab), then they obviously consider that coin to be original, i.e., naturally toned and are backing that up with their label and their reputation. By virtue of the pronouncement related in the OP, this now means nothing... as theoretically anyone, regardless of whether they know anything about toning, grading, or even numismatics for that matter- can now complain to the CCW and have a fair shot of getting the listing pulled depending on whether they agree. Translation: the vaunted TPG opinion is now being rendered useless.
<<Translation: the vaunted TPG opinion is now being rendered useless. >>
Amen to that brother! And I for one don't want to hand eBay the power to be judge, jury and executioner!
And all based on photos?!? How many times around here do we state "Well...from the looks of it...it's hard to tell..." or "Based on that crummy picture...that looks like it was taken inside a mine shaft!"
If this becomes a trend, PCGS and NGC should pounce on this with both claws!
And, don't laugh, but I also see a day when eBay might force us to use their own "eBay certified green bean" ...on top of the slab!
<< <i>Translation: the vaunted TPG opinion is now being rendered useless. >>
One problem with TPG opinion when coin doctors are involved is that coins may no longer be graded moving forward but no-longer market acceptable coins remain slabbed in the marketplace.
This makes it more challenging to evaluate TPG-graded coins in the marketplace. Secure Plus and the sniffer are good moves going forward; however, what can be done for existing coins?
A marketplace standard may help more questionable coins be returned to TPGs instead of staying in the market for a long time fooling more customers.
<< <i>If the coin is no longer market acceptable and the seller still wishes to sell it with the condition undisclosed (as it was), do you think a marketplace is doing customers a favor by not requiring disclosure? >>
And I repeat...that the current owner should be having a discussion with the responsible TPG that was paid for a service that ultimately turned out to be faulty. >>
That's a good solution with responsible owners. However, if you are a marketplace that wants to create a safe buying environment and sellers are not disclosing known AT, what else can you do?
Ideally, the TPGs would be doing more to take these coins off the market and the PNG / ANA would be more active in limiting the selling of doctored coins. I think if those things were happening more, eBay wouldn't need to move to these rules; however, in the interests of creating a safe buying market, something may need to be done because known AT coins are being sold on their marketplace, in the open, without disclosure.
<< <i><<Do you think the seller should disclose that fact per the PNG Code of Ethics or other personal ethics? >>
Actually, I think the owner of this coin should contact PCGS and inquire as to how they can either be made whole or at least mitigate the damage done in placing their faith in the stated condition on this slab. Then based on that conversation, I would determine how to proceed from there. And, that might include having PCGS expertly dip/conserve that nickel using Jeweluster...or some approved equal. >>
If the coin is no longer market acceptable and the seller still wishes to sell it with the condition undisclosed (as it was), do you think a marketplace is doing customers a favor by not requiring disclosure? Consider that the TPG no longer grades the coins, knowledgable forum members actively create threads about the coins (and this is by no means the first thread on these toners), and the PNG Code of Ethics requires disclosure. >>
That coin is likely NOT AT. Many nickels toned blue in the original mint packaging. That nickel is probably part of the famous "Marty Hoard".
This pulling auctions of coins slabbed by the "approved" TPGs for alleged "AT" is total BS.
And as others mentioned, why don't they pull the auctions for AT raw coins or blatantly cleaned coins that do not mention the cleaning?
<< <i><<Do you think the seller should disclose that fact per the PNG Code of Ethics or other personal ethics? >>
Actually, I think the owner of this coin should contact PCGS and inquire as to how they can either be made whole or at least mitigate the damage done in placing their faith in the stated condition on this slab. Then based on that conversation, I would determine how to proceed from there. And, that might include having PCGS expertly dip/conserve that nickel using Jeweluster...or some approved equal. >>
If the coin is no longer market acceptable and the seller still wishes to sell it with the condition undisclosed (as it was), do you think a marketplace is doing customers a favor by not requiring disclosure? Consider that the TPG no longer grades the coins, knowledgable forum members actively create threads about the coins (and this is by no means the first thread on these toners), and the PNG Code of Ethics requires disclosure. >>
That coin is likely NOT AT. Many nickels toned blue in the original mint packaging. That nickel is probably part of the famous "Marty Hoard".
This pulling auctions of coins slabbed by the "approved" TPGs for alleged "AT" is total BS.
And as others mentioned, why don't they pull the auctions for AT raw coins or blatantly cleaned coins that do not mention the cleaning? >>
@Connecticoin: Marty specifically says in that thread that (a) that's not his coin, (b) his weren't as wildly colored and (c) that the submitter did submit cooked coins to our host.
The thread is well worth reading and the general opinion seems to be that the coin likely IS AT. Here's an excerpt:
<< <i>MadMarty: Come on now don't blame it on the chicken!!! I did have quite a few of these in cellos, proof sets bought when I was a kid and stored for 35-40 years in my dads attic. The dealer that submitted them also mixed in a bunch of cooked ones and tainted the whole batch. After that they would get bagged every time, so I brought 2 sealed ones to an ANA and handed them to HRH, asked them if he would inspect them and they were slabbed.
ModernCoin: Were the "NT" examples that you had as wildly colored as the example provided by keets above?
MadMarty: No, no NEON colors, but some bright blue's and purple's and a lot of ones that were just Meh... >>
Ideally, the TPGs, PNG, and ANA would be the ones taking action to take these doctored coins off the market, but in the absense of that, it's almost like the marketplace has to do their own policiing if the industry doesn't.
<< <i>What if an ebay seller were to list one of those contemporary O mint counterfeit Morgan dollars in a PCGS holder. What then? >>
Hmmm. Are you talking about a dodgy seller unscrupulously putting one of the contemporaries into a genuine slab, or do you mean a contemporary that's already been slabbed as such legitimately by PCGS? If the former, jerk the auction; if the latter, it stays imo.
<< <i>Has anyone actually asked why this seller has so many rainbow toned coins and has sold plenty more?
Has anybody asked the seller whether he was the one who sent the coins for grading?
If you search eBay, you will find one seller with nearly three hundred rainbow toned coins for sale, is there something toxic in the air in his area? >>
Lots of collectors and dealers ONLY purchase or sell toned coins.
<< <i>The fact is that only US collectors place any value on the ridiculous colors on these coins - try looking on the UK site - and some coin docs have admitted that they have treated their coins to create these colors. >>
No argument here. The US "toned" coin market has been heavily endorsed by many reputable collectors and dealers who ultimately end up selling what they have. Many swear to the fact that they know for "absolutely positively" sure (Mike Mezak? Whatever!) that their top grade toned coin has been sitting in some old timer's manila envelope collection for a bazillion years which accounts for that beautiful "natural toning".
Personally, I'm of the opinion that many of the "toned" coins currently on the market are not the result of some "long term storage" scenario but are more than likely produced to satisfy the toned coin market which at its best, is nothing more than a "my car is shinier then your car" market. But what do I know?
<< <i>If cleaning a coin damages it and merits reporting by the grading companies, surely artificially toning merits the same treatment? >>
The cleaning of a coin is relative to the market and the guidelines established by the TPG's. Specifically, they will NOT grade a cleaned or "damaged" coin. Unless, of course, its some unusual rarity. And of course, the term "cleaned" is relative and covers everything from an "odd" looking color (it must have been cleaned) to out and out abrasive damage from an SOS or Brillo pad! But then, who is really going to whine all that much over a damaged or cleaned 1794 Starred Reverse? Graded or not, slabbed or not, these coins are definitely collectible.
<< <i>At some time in the past an unscrupulous coin dealer discovered that he could create artificially toned coins, buyers jumped on them and that is why we are where we are today. >>
Again, no argument here
<< <i>As far as I am concerned, a coin that has been artificially toned is just a tampered coin and the South African coins which are the subject of this thread are $1.50 coins that have been tampered with to grossly inflate their selling price. >>
Like Sego, I have no idea how these African coins react to their environment. I DO KNOW that some coins within a series will tone "differently" due to different cleaning and rinsing agents used by the US Mint over the life of the series. Otherwise, all Mint Sealed Eisenhower Silver Proofs would tone in the same color shades. They do not. Some are blues and some are greens. Some haze up with a bluish fog while others look like they were sprayed with pond scum and still other have no reactions at all. The 1974-S reacts totally different than a 1973-S which is different than a 1972-S or 1971-S. All 4 are different than the 1976-S which doesn't sem to react to anything!
<< <i>Scrupulous collectors and dealers should try to stop this nonsense and if NGC or PCGS grade these coins, then frankly they are complicit and they too should clean up their act. >>
I agree with this to the point that whom ever is making the accusation needs to factually know what they are talking about. As of today, I can;t say that I honestly know of anybidy, TPG or Not, that can distinguish AT from NT unless the AT happens to be enamel paint. Now, the PCGS sniffer can certainly weed these truely artificailly toned coins out but it is technologically helpless against Accelerated Toning via natural means. These coins fall under the umbrella of suspicion and most certainly are prevalent within the toned coin market place.
Now for the OP. Is eBay out of line? Absolutely since they are judging a coin "based upon a photograph and someones opinion". Photographs can be manipulated and "opinions" can be based on more than simple fact and everybody knows that you cannot professionally grade a coin from a photograph. PCGS won't do it, neither will NGC. Who the hell is this Coin Community Watch Group that supposedly can and why has eBay given them such authority?
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i>Very interesting turn of events. I wonder if those coins are sent back to PCGS along with this thread...would PCGS buy them back? >>
I personally bought these coins from three different eBay sellers and spread out over about a year period of time. I bought the first one cause I thought it was cool and pretty cheap, considering the amazing colors, great pics already provided and in PCGS. Subsequently, I bought the other two since they were a date, Country and TPGS match to the first and I thought they made a cool set. My asking price was a lot but I didn't necessarily want to sell them as much as I enjoyed showing them off.
<< <i>What if an ebay seller were to list one of those contemporary O mint counterfeit Morgan dollars in a PCGS holder. What then? >>
Hmmm. Are you talking about a dodgy seller unscrupulously putting one of the contemporaries into a genuine slab, or do you mean a contemporary that's already been slabbed as such legitimately by PCGS? If the former, jerk the auction; if the latter, it stays imo. >>
You are missing the subtle connection to the current situation. The coins were slabbed legitimately by PCGS and subsequently determined to be counterfeit. One cannot state that' if it's good enough for PCGS then ebay has no business pulling a listing' without discussing a situation such as this. IMO, if it is shown subsequently that a coin is counterfeit, or AT, then ebay is certainly within its rights to police its site by pulling said listing - no matter what PCGS originally said about the coin.
i have a " blue men group" nickel in for grading right now...i believe by the end of the week i'll see if mine grades it's one of the 3 i think they will bounce in a gennie but i have i've seen way too many in holders with grades oh well my fingers are crossed still
everything in life is but merely on loan to us by our appreciation....lose your appreciation and see
maybe pcgs customer service could contact ebay in regard to discrediting their coins if a coin is in their holder...it's their coin as they stamped it with their brand to a certain decree they are defaming pcgs or at least a co-conspirator here
"customer service are you reading this?"
everything in life is but merely on loan to us by our appreciation....lose your appreciation and see
<< <i>. . . . .Update #2: I've been forwarded a letter allegedly from the eBay Coin Community Watch Group member who reported my listings of these same coins TWICE and eBay acted swiftly both times.
The person who forwarded me the following letter wishes to remain anonymous. This eBay Watch Group Member seems drunk with power and a complete ego maniac...
"This is from the ebay Coin Group. Feel free to out the guy on the PCGS boards but please do not mention me.
These were the coins I reported twice.
In my opinion, since any sign of cleaning is noted on a slab's label, these rainbow toned monstrosities should be described as artificially toned.
I note that the three South African dreck have been relisted as "electric toned". Since this could be interpreted as a description of the toning rather than the method used, I am reporting them again:
With regard to the OP, I have read the bleatings in the CU thread but not one of these nincompoops seems to have looked at the seller's feedback history and noted the number of rainbow toned coins the coin doc has sold. I apologise if there were members there arguing against the coin doc and his supporters." >>
My views on this "feedback" are:
1. According to eBay, the person who reported these coins as artificially toned knows more than the professional graders at PCGS, and can determine artificially toned coins from a photograph.
2. According to the person who reported these sales to eBay, the fact that the seller sells a lot of rainbow toned coins, means that he is automatically guilty of artificially toning coins.
3. The person who reported these sales to eBay is obviously not unbiased with respect to toned coins, as these phrases indicate: "rainbow toned monstrosities" and "the three South African dreck".
4. If the person who reported these coins to eBay is a better grader than PCGS, then stand up, sir and announce yourself! We already have 3rd party grading and 4th party grading (CAC), so you might as well start 5th party grading.
5. How do we know that the person reporting these coins to eBay is not a competitor of the seller, and is doing this to harm his competitor?
6. A blue toned 1964 Jefferson nickel was posted, and many suggestions were made that the buyer should return the coin to PCGS for conservation, dipping, etc. Let me take a guess that that will not happen. All I see here is that someone wanted to spend a little over $100 to acquire a bright blue toned Jefferson nickel. Where in that transaction is the great harm to the numismatic community?
6. TDN raises a good point about the Morgan dollar "micro o" counterfeits in PCGS holders. If one of these is offered on eBay, probably one of the Morgan dollar specialist collectors or dealers would buy it. Those micro o's in PCGS holders are very difficult to find, and very marketable.
Note: I am a dealer and I occasionally sell coins that have toning. People seem to want to buy a more attractive coin, that is why I carry them. I have never artificially toned a coin, but I have submitted raw coins with toning to grading services.
Edited to add: 100!
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
<< <i>then ebay is certainly within its rights to police its site by pulling said listing - no matter what PCGS originally said about the coin. >>
eBay certainly has the right to allow/disallow whatever they want on their site. Seems pretty silly to me, though, to make an announcement that as of May 30 (or whatever the date is), for the protection of the eBay community, only PCGS/NGC slabbed coins will be allowed to be listed in certain situations as they are the only approved services on the site but in other situations, PCGS/NGC slabs will not be allowed because (for the protection of the eBay community, of course) these very same TPGs cannot be depended on to accurately assess the condition of a coin to a level satisfactory to eBay (or one of its anonymous netcops, anyway).
<< <i>6. A blue toned 1964 Jefferson nickel was posted, and many suggestions were made that the buyer should return the coin to PCGS for conservation, dipping, etc. Let me take a guess that that will not happen. All I see here is that someone wanted to spend a little over $100 to acquire a bright blue toned Jefferson nickel. Where in that transaction is the great harm to the numismatic community? >>
I think there is some possible harm associated with the following:
(a) buyer dissatisfaction upon learning the coin is undisclosed AT (b) TPG reputation as TPG brand is still associated with coins it no longer grades (c) marketplace reputation for being known as a place where sellers take advantage of buyers
The solution proposed by the marketplace sounds simple enough:
(d) disclose the AT - which is also a PNG Code of Ethics requirement
Is the PNG Code of Ethics so terrible?
You can go further to suggest cracking out the coin and/or dipping it, but that is not what the marketplace is requiring.
<< <i>6. TDN raises a good point about the Morgan dollar "micro o" counterfeits in PCGS holders. If one of these is offered on eBay, probably one of the Morgan dollar specialist collectors or dealers would buy it. Those micro o's in PCGS holders are very difficult to find, and very marketable. >>
A good question would be whether our host appreciates these being on the market and whether the marketplace wants these on their market.
Comments
<< <i>I do find it alarming that eBay is now questioning the integrity of top tier TPG slabs..for whatever reason. Unless there are obvious signs of tampering/counterfeiting...on what grounds are they now claiming to stand? >>
This seems like the latest in eBay taking into account what knowledgable collectors talk about on these (and other) forums and making it into eBay policy, e.g. third world slabs, replica/COPY counterfeits, AT in top TPG slabs. All these things have been discussed on these forums for long periods of time as serious impediments to the hobby. It seems only natural eBay would take the pulse of the collector community and try to make their marketplace safer. I wouldn't be surprised if the eBay Coin Community Watch group is made up of collectors with similar background to the people concerned about these topics on this and other forums.
Taking the pulse of the responses here, there seem to be a few types of responses:
(a) AT in top TPG slab
(b) not AT
(c) it's a top TPG so leave it be
If these opinions are from knowledgable collectors and you wanted to create a safer marketplace, what would you do?
Think about this. What if you wanted to run a credible marketplace and certain blue AT coins that have been known to make it into top TPG slabs placed for sale on your marketplace. When these coins come up on your marketplace, the message boards light up with threads saying they are so AT and that the TPG does not certify them anymore. What service would you be providing your customers if AT was not disclosed?
With respect to the stated policy, it really only follows what people say here and what is listed on the PNG Code of Ethics for disclosure:
<< <i>These coins have been artificially toned the listing failed to disclose this[....] You will need to disclose that the coins have been artificially toned, and state what process was used in order to relist the coins. >>
Other other comment I'd like to make is that most folks don't realize just how many coins sell every day on eBay. Other than Heritage or Stack-Bowers, no other platform comes close and I think that's a very big deal. Sure, you can move your auctions to other platforms, etc but eBay is one of the world's most important e-commerce platforms and I think they are the #1 source for new coin collectors in our hobby. Just my 2-cents...
<< <i>Lots of good insight here and, while I still have no official insight on why eBay cancelled the auctions for these coins, I think what you are seeing is the result of eBay engaging more in the coin business because they realize they have left a lot of potential on the table by not paying more attention (sooner). Some of it is heavy-handed and some is graceful but the point is they are really excited about making the coin part of their web site much better. I know that for a fact, and I have been working with them directly in a number of ways. (Note: I have not been involved in any of the community watch programs).
Other other comment I'd like to make is that most folks don't realize just how many coins sell every day on eBay. Other than Heritage or Stack-Bowers, no other platform comes close and I think that's a very big deal. Sure, you can move your auctions to other platforms, etc but eBay is one of the world's most important e-commerce platforms and I think they are the #1 source for new coin collectors in our hobby. Just my 2-cents... >>
Adding to this they just managed to get Legend back into the fold. They pursued Legend. Maybe, just maybe they are making a concerted effort to clean up some of the mess and they are "over doing" it in the name of coin valor. MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
This is all well and good...EXCEPT...that just because we might grouse that a coin doesn't "look right" or "isn't for me"...unless we've held it in our hands and examined it using whatever the current state of the art equipment is/was...like a top TPG...then we're only being a bunch of cranks.
If eBay is now making it fair game to invalidate a legitimate slab based solely on the "good word" of people like us (as well intentioned at that may be)...well then, we're essentially saying that no coin...in any slab...regardless of how many experts have examined it prior to being encapsulated, is really safe from either innocent or malicious second-guessing...and that's just plain wrong!
Really...they should just drop the Paypal buyer protection crap for coins and get it over with (oh that's right...they wouldn't want to do that...because then they couldn't FORCE you to use Paypal...with all of its attendant fees anymore!). This is just plain getting scary now.
And PS...for all those people who don't like white/dipped coins...how are all those colorful older slabs looking now if this policy actually gains serious traction in the future?
At the rate we're going, I can actually see a day when only the latest NGC Edgeview and PCGS generation of slabs will be acceptable for listing on eBay (sorry that's an "older" slab...and standards have changed...so you can't list it anymore)!
<< <i>
<< <i>This seems like the latest in eBay taking into account what knowledgable collectors talk about on these (and other) forums and making it into eBay policy, e.g. third world slabs, replica/COPY counterfeits, AT in top TPG slabs. >>
This is all well and good...EXCEPT...that just because we might grouse that a coin doesn't "look right" or "isn't for me"...unless we've held it in our hands and examined it using whatever the current state of the art equipment is/was...like a top TPG...then we're only being a bunch of cranks.
If eBay is now making it fair game to invalidate a legitimate slab based solely on the "good word" of people like us (as well intentioned at that may be)...well then, we're essentially saying that no coin...in any slab...regardless of how many experts have examined it prior to being encapsulation, is really safe from either innocent or malicious second-guessing...and that's just plain wrong! >>
One thing I would mention is that it's not always just community forum members. Top TPGs will stop slabbing AT coins if they realize they've been fooled by the coin doctors; however, the previously slabbed coins remain in the market and can show up on eBay and other marketplaces. Under a strict reading of the PNG Code of Ethics, the AT needs to be disclosed. For those coins, it's probably reasonable to ask for disclosure if everyone in the know knows they are AT, e.g. a thread is started here and there is general acknowledgement they are not market acceptable from both collectors and the TPG that slabbed it in the first place.
I do get the sense that there are those who believe that a top TPG's word should be the final one and I could not agree less. My own experience with a top tier TPG when I chose to break the coin out of its slab - because I was not interested in keeping it in the slab - was to discover that holes had been drilled in the top and bottom of the coin, as it had previously been mounted and it would have been evident to anyone inspecting or grading the coin.
TPGs will grade cleaned coins and tooled coins and note these facts on the slab's label, so an artificially toned coin - and most of them are toned artificially - should be similarly noted on the label.
<< <i>So far, nobody seems to have responded to the points I raised in my last post, which does not come as any surprise. >>
RichR did respond to your post saying:
<< <i>I've attended major shows where practically a dealer's entire table consists of highly toned and extremely colorful slabs...so it's not impossible to have lots of toned inventory...especially if that's "your thing." >>
Of course, we all know that's possible, but he didn't say if he thought those were AT or NT.
<< I've attended major shows where practically a dealer's entire table consists of highly toned and extremely colorful slabs...so it's not impossible to have lots of toned inventory...especially if that's "your thing. >>
<<Of course, we all know that's possible, but he didn't say if he thought those were AT or NT. >>
OK...let me just say this...do I think I'm a pretty fair to good grader...yes. Do I think I'm as good a grader under harsh flourescent lights on a bourse floor with a 5x or 10x loop...as some guy sitting in essentially in a sterile setting with an electron microscope and a chemistry lab backing him up? Absolutely not.
But that having been said...isn't that why we're all turning over millions of dollars annually to alledged experts...so that their decisions will be respected and accepted within the hobby/industry? Otherwise, what's the point of all this? Unless we're all misinterpreting what seems to be happening here...we have a generalized internet auction site (that just happens to also accept coin listings)...second-guessing who we in the industry acknowledge (and pay) to be the experts. If a major new bright line re eBay listing policies is about to be crossed...this may be it.
And for full disclosure...until the mid to late '90s, I was also loathe to pay a third party to grade any elements in my collection...but as that was obviously the direction the hobby was moving in...I [reluctantly] climbed on board....and doled out lots of money for the "honor" accordingly. So now what? All [authentic] slabs are suspect if the coin looks too exotic or too good to be true? And some mysterious eBay Star Chamber Court of busybodies is going to now be the final arbiter of acceptable numismatic merchandise? Excuse me?
And PS...since the banned ANA slab uproar a couple of weeks back, I've been comparing the recent policies regarding eBay coin sales to the selling of used cars on eBay motors. Unless an eBay authorized mechanic now needs to come out and take your car for a spin before it can be listed on their site...I'm not understanding the sudden Draconian policies and focus on numismatic "integrity"?
And maybe we [all] shouldn't have been so fast to start alerting eBay to "That's a fake" and "This is obviously bogus"...because they now seem to be getting just plain paranoid...even with legitimate items!
<< <i>All [authentic] slabs are suspect if the coin looks too exotic or too good to be true? >>
There are some good threads on these forums for AT diagnostics. I'm not sure if they are still around.
For the record, I often spot listings that are removed and in my opinion, they are invariably removed for good reasons that are consistent with eBay rules, including images that are so poor that buyers are at risk, and the Hobby Protection Act, with which eBay must comply.
So now authentic PCGS (and likely NGC) slabs can be removed from eBay listings because...somebody remotely doesn't like the look of them...although they are legitimate and can be verified to be such? Because that seems to be where we are now.
So, if true...what does paying to have a TPG "Certify" your coin mean exactly?
One question is what to do with top TPG slabbed coins after a style of toning is exposed to be artifically created by coin doctors. At a minimum, there should be disclosure per the PNG Code of Ethics when the coin is offered or sold. Ideally, the coin would also be removed from the top TPG slab.
As for what a TPG certification means, it is an opinion and a guarantee. Perhaps with some marketplace changes, previously slabbed-AT coins will be turned in for the guarantee instead of being continued to be sold, leading to a clean up of the marketplace.
As for where we are, it seems like we've reached the point of trying to protect the consumer and improve the reputation of the top TPGs.
<< <i>So now authentic PCGS (and likely NGC) slabs can be removed from eBay listings because...somebody remotely doesn't like the look of them...although they are legitimate and can be verified to be such? Because that seems to be where we are now.
So, if true...what does paying to have a TPG "Certify" your coin mean exactly? >>
What it means is that you would hope that such certification should not be applied to coins that have been tampered with. After all, cleaned coins are described as such but what I think happened here is that when the coin docs started artificially toning their coins, the TPGs got caught with their pants down, having already graded abused coins before they realised what was happening. They should have held their hands up and admitted their mistake but instead carried on grading these horrors.
Don't lay the blame for the well-intentioned actions taken on eBay at the instigation of those who want to protect the hobby and make eBay safer, blame the greedy coin docs who created the coins and the TPGs who made it so easy for them.
And I'm willing to bet that the listing gets pulled on nothing more than our "report"...and, if so, that is just plain wrong!
<< <i>If anyone is up for it...I think we should conduct our own "integrity" test....if you will: I think a member of this board should offer a legitimate highly toned, extremely colorful slabbed Morgan for sale...and then a couple of us should contact eBay and claim it's AT...
And I'm willing to bet that the listing gets pulled on nothing more than our "report"...and, if so, that is just plain wrong! >>
Do we need to test that?
I think based on the preponderance of information we already have about eBay that what you said is SPOT ON.
If 3 or 4 people complain they panick and clear the listing. End of complaints
I think it would be good...because once this door is opened, why will a possibly AT coin be the only flagable issue?
Maybe I'll look at a slabbed coin and say, I think that PCGS/NGC slabbed coin has been dipped/cleaned/whizzed/not worthy of its grade...you name it...and report it as such. And then we'll be in completely uncharted waters....and need I say...in an excellent position to screw around with other sellers that we don't really like!
<< <i>
<< <i>Do we need to test that? >>
I think it would be good...because once this door is opened, why will a possibly AT coin be the only flagable issue? >>
Has the door been open and well trodden? Didn't many people want (and use) a feedback mechanism like this to get rid of counterfeits? It seems like members of these boards have long reported suspect coins to eBay.
In the past, coins would need to be voluntarily turned in for the grade guarantee. With some more proactive measures, perhaps some of the more notable AT coins will be traded less and turned in more.
I see............so a company that did over 12 BILLION in revenues last year does not feel it important enough to cough up salaries for qualified numismatic experts to oversee their website, yet they act on the free and unsolicited 'reports' of a bunch of people who now think they know more than the graders at PCGS about toning? Makes perfect sense to me,
<< <i>So far, nobody seems to have responded to the points I raised in my last post, which does not come as any surprise. I do get the sense that there are those who believe that a top TPG's word should be the final one and I could not agree less. My own experience with a top tier TPG when I chose to break the coin out of its slab - because I was not interested in keeping it in the slab - was to discover that holes had been drilled in the top and bottom of the coin, as it had previously been mounted and it would have been evident to anyone inspecting or grading the coin. TPGs will grade cleaned coins and tooled coins and note these facts on the slab's label, so an artificially toned coin - and most of them are toned artificially - should be similarly noted on the label. >>
Ever heard of specialization? Using your logic, it appears some dealers live in an area where all they have is early copper coins. Some only have classic gold coins. Some seem to have an unusually high concentration of Classic Commemoratives. And sadly, some live in areas where there are only overpriced problem coins. Fortunately, there are some dealers who live in areas with a lot of PQ coins. --Jerry
<< <i>Don't lay the blame for the well-intentioned actions taken on eBay at the instigation of those who want to protect the hobby and make eBay safer, blame the greedy coin docs who created the coins and the TPGs who made it so easy for them. >>
There is nowhere else to lay the blame.
PCGS put their name on the line and backed that name up with a guaranty.
Meanwhile, eBay, 1) created a black box process; 2) handed the reigns of that process to faceless individuals; and 3) allows that faceless group to operate on a case by case basis seemingly targeting random auctions.
For the three PCGS slabs that got pulled you can currently find 283 auction format coins with a "rainbow" description in their title. 5 of the first 6 coins I see are highly suspect Morgan dollars with colorful "toning". Yet, there they sit. Being given more leniency than the ops PCGS slabbed coins.
So to whom is this group accountable when it only applies its set of unknown standards to just some sellers/coins/slabs?
Indeed, who watches the Watchmen?
However, this policy now seems to be moving well past counterfiets...and into the subjective realm of "It might be..." and/or "It looks like..." while also being totally at odds with the stated condition on a REAL slab.
<< <i><<Didn't many people want (and use) a feedback mechanism like this to get rid of counterfeits?>>
However, this policy now seems to be moving well past counterfiets...and into the subjective realm of "It might be..." and/or "It looks like..." while also being totally at odds with the stated condition of a REAL slab. >>
Sometimes the stated condition on the real slab is a mistake that has been recognized by the TPG going forward, however many already-slabbed coins remain in the marketplace. I think the following being sold for $118.50 on Feb 12, 2012 isn't really good for the reputation of our host or eBay. One question is once coins like this are recognized to be AT, what do you do about them? According to the PNG Code of Ethics, the AT should be disclosed during a sale. The eBay policy simply asks for such disclosure.
forum thread
eBay auction
And...if it is AT...isn't the vast majority of the value of that coin residing in the numerical grade and not the color?
<< <i>But to just prove how slippery this slope can be, I own at least 2 nickels (although not likely in PR68) from the early '60s that are just as colorful as that coin...and are still sealed in the original cello bag. >>
Unfortunately, that's the situation we are in because of coin doctors. When these coins come up, people point out the AT, the history, and the fact that PCGS doesn't slab them anymore. However, they are still sold to unsuspecting collectors without full disclosure. It doesn't look good for the TPG or the marketplace to have these being sold with undisclosed AT.
<< <i>And...if it is AT...isn't the vast majority of the value of that coin residing in the numerical grade and not the color? >>
The PCGS Price Guide price is $32 vs. a sale price of $118.50 so I'd venture to guess most of the price is a collector and TPG getting fooled by a coin doctor.
Serious question...I cut open a 1964 proof set...and leave the nickel sitting on a clean handkerchief on my dresser...and 3-6-12 months (or however long) later it turns deep blue with some red streaks. Is that AT? Is it slabbable? Am I a criminal? Because if the answer is yes to any of the above...then all the magical Morgan bag toning and inside grandpa's desk drawer toning stories we've all heard...are highly suspect!
And as for people simply being willing to pay too much to own "ultra gem" high quality registry coins...such is life. Case in point, if anyone is willing to sell my hard pack, non-CC GSA Morgans at strictly list price...I'd be willing to entertain offers!
<< <i>
<< <i>The PCGS Price Guide price is $32 vs. a sale price of $118.50 so I'd venture to guess most of the price is a collector and TPG getting fooled by a coin doctor. >>
Serious question...I cut open a 1964 proof set...and leave the nickel sitting on a clean handkerchief on my dresser...and 3/6/12 months later it turns deep blue. Is that AT? Is it slabbable? Am I a criminal? Because if the answer is yes to any of the above...then all the magical Morgan bag toning and inside grandpa desk drawer toning stories we've all heard...are highly suspect! >>
Let's stick to the coin at hand and not hypotheticals. The coin in question is no longer market acceptable to the TPG that slabbed it. It is also generally accepted as an AT coin. Do you think the seller should disclose that fact per the PNG Code of Ethics or other personal ethics?
Actually, I think the owner of this coin should contact PCGS and inquire as to how they can either be made whole or at least mitigate the damage done in placing their faith in the stated condition on this slab. Then based on that conversation, I would determine how to proceed from there. And, that might include having PCGS expertly dip/conserve that nickel using Jeweluster...or some approved equal.
And I'm not dealing with hypotheticals...at a major show you can usually pick out every color of the rainbow...sometimes in the same display case...and sometimes on the same coin! And those coins are usually being sold as premium inventory, not as damaged goods with a mea culpa!
<< <i><<Do you think the seller should disclose that fact per the PNG Code of Ethics or other personal ethics? >>
Actually, I think the owner of this coin should contact PCGS and inquire as to how they can either be made whole or at least mitigate the damage done in placing their faith in the stated condition on this slab. Then based on that conversation, I would determine how to proceed from there. And, that might include having PCGS expertly dip/conserve that nickel using Jeweluster...or some approved equal. >>
If the coin is no longer market acceptable and the seller still wishes to sell it with the condition undisclosed (as it was), do you think a marketplace is doing customers a favor by not requiring disclosure? Consider that the TPG no longer grades the coins, knowledgable forum members actively create threads about the coins (and this is by no means the first thread on these toners), and the PNG Code of Ethics requires disclosure.
Didn't they make about 7 billion 1964 jefferson nickles?
With such a large number its almost a given that one or 2 would be used to make a purchase from an ice cream truck.
that particular nickle tumbled into the ice cream trucks freezer and became lodged at the tip of a rocket pop where it acquired its deep blue coloring in a very natural manner
And I repeat...that the current owner should be having a discussion with the responsible TPG that was paid for a service that ultimately turned out to be faulty.
But, once again, I'm asking how exactly these determinations are being made remotely based on a few photos...that are now, in effect, overriding an actual physical examination/grading process. There are quite a lot of legitimately toned coins out there...and some, especially nickets, can be quite vivid.
And I'll go one step further...and call it hypothetical if you like...a person buys a slabbed coin...puts it away in a safe deposit box for 10 or 20 years...and then decides to sell it. They list the grade, the grading service and their price. For the average seller...where exactly does this magical Code of Ethics come in? They own an an item and are stating the condition to the best of their knowledge...in fact, they're stating the condition based on the knowledge of an expert who was paid to grade said coin. And now eBay is going to step in and say, "Sorry, we not only think PCGS/NGC was wrong. We're actually going to assume they're wrong and block you from making a sale. And we're going to do this because somebody who doesn't work for us had a hunch! And have a nice day."
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
Amen to that brother! And I for one don't want to hand eBay the power to be judge, jury and executioner!
And all based on photos?!? How many times around here do we state "Well...from the looks of it...it's hard to tell..." or "Based on that crummy picture...that looks like it was taken inside a mine shaft!"
If this becomes a trend, PCGS and NGC should pounce on this with both claws!
And, don't laugh, but I also see a day when eBay might force us to use their own "eBay certified green bean" ...on top of the slab!
<< <i>Translation: the vaunted TPG opinion is now being rendered useless. >>
One problem with TPG opinion when coin doctors are involved is that coins may no longer be graded moving forward but no-longer market acceptable coins remain slabbed in the marketplace.
This makes it more challenging to evaluate TPG-graded coins in the marketplace. Secure Plus and the sniffer are good moves going forward; however, what can be done for existing coins?
A marketplace standard may help more questionable coins be returned to TPGs instead of staying in the market for a long time fooling more customers.
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<< <i>If the coin is no longer market acceptable and the seller still wishes to sell it with the condition undisclosed (as it was), do you think a marketplace is doing customers a favor by not requiring disclosure? >>
And I repeat...that the current owner should be having a discussion with the responsible TPG that was paid for a service that ultimately turned out to be faulty. >>
That's a good solution with responsible owners. However, if you are a marketplace that wants to create a safe buying environment and sellers are not disclosing known AT, what else can you do?
Ideally, the TPGs would be doing more to take these coins off the market and the PNG / ANA would be more active in limiting the selling of doctored coins. I think if those things were happening more, eBay wouldn't need to move to these rules; however, in the interests of creating a safe buying market, something may need to be done because known AT coins are being sold on their marketplace, in the open, without disclosure.
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<< <i><<Do you think the seller should disclose that fact per the PNG Code of Ethics or other personal ethics? >>
Actually, I think the owner of this coin should contact PCGS and inquire as to how they can either be made whole or at least mitigate the damage done in placing their faith in the stated condition on this slab. Then based on that conversation, I would determine how to proceed from there. And, that might include having PCGS expertly dip/conserve that nickel using Jeweluster...or some approved equal. >>
If the coin is no longer market acceptable and the seller still wishes to sell it with the condition undisclosed (as it was), do you think a marketplace is doing customers a favor by not requiring disclosure? Consider that the TPG no longer grades the coins, knowledgable forum members actively create threads about the coins (and this is by no means the first thread on these toners), and the PNG Code of Ethics requires disclosure. >>
That coin is likely NOT AT. Many nickels toned blue in the original mint packaging. That nickel is probably part of the famous "Marty Hoard".
This pulling auctions of coins slabbed by the "approved" TPGs for alleged "AT" is total BS.
And as others mentioned, why don't they pull the auctions for AT raw coins or blatantly cleaned coins that do not mention the cleaning?
Altered slab...pull it. Counterfeit anything...pull it. All fair game.
But this is not fake, not counterfeit PCGS stuff getting pulled now. Entirely new territory!
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<< <i>
<< <i><<Do you think the seller should disclose that fact per the PNG Code of Ethics or other personal ethics? >>
Actually, I think the owner of this coin should contact PCGS and inquire as to how they can either be made whole or at least mitigate the damage done in placing their faith in the stated condition on this slab. Then based on that conversation, I would determine how to proceed from there. And, that might include having PCGS expertly dip/conserve that nickel using Jeweluster...or some approved equal. >>
If the coin is no longer market acceptable and the seller still wishes to sell it with the condition undisclosed (as it was), do you think a marketplace is doing customers a favor by not requiring disclosure? Consider that the TPG no longer grades the coins, knowledgable forum members actively create threads about the coins (and this is by no means the first thread on these toners), and the PNG Code of Ethics requires disclosure. >>
That coin is likely NOT AT. Many nickels toned blue in the original mint packaging. That nickel is probably part of the famous "Marty Hoard".
This pulling auctions of coins slabbed by the "approved" TPGs for alleged "AT" is total BS.
And as others mentioned, why don't they pull the auctions for AT raw coins or blatantly cleaned coins that do not mention the cleaning? >>
@Connecticoin: Marty specifically says in that thread that (a) that's not his coin, (b) his weren't as wildly colored and (c) that the submitter did submit cooked coins to our host.
The thread is well worth reading and the general opinion seems to be that the coin likely IS AT. Here's an excerpt:
<< <i>MadMarty: Come on now don't blame it on the chicken!!! I did have quite a few of these in cellos, proof sets bought when I was a kid and stored for 35-40 years in my dads attic. The dealer that submitted them also mixed in a bunch of cooked ones and tainted the whole batch. After that they would get bagged every time, so I brought 2 sealed ones to an ANA and handed them to HRH, asked them if he would inspect them and they were slabbed.
ModernCoin: Were the "NT" examples that you had as wildly colored as the example provided by keets above?
MadMarty: No, no NEON colors, but some bright blue's and purple's and a lot of ones that were just Meh... >>
Ideally, the TPGs, PNG, and ANA would be the ones taking action to take these doctored coins off the market, but in the absense of that, it's almost like the marketplace has to do their own policiing if the industry doesn't.
<< <i>What if an ebay seller were to list one of those contemporary O mint counterfeit Morgan dollars in a PCGS holder. What then? >>
Hmmm. Are you talking about a dodgy seller unscrupulously putting one of the contemporaries into a genuine slab, or do you mean a contemporary that's already been slabbed as such legitimately by PCGS? If the former, jerk the auction; if the latter, it stays imo.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i>Has anyone actually asked why this seller has so many rainbow toned coins and has sold plenty more?
Has anybody asked the seller whether he was the one who sent the coins for grading?
If you search eBay, you will find one seller with nearly three hundred rainbow toned coins for sale, is there something toxic in the air in his area? >>
Lots of collectors and dealers ONLY purchase or sell toned coins.
<< <i>The fact is that only US collectors place any value on the ridiculous colors on these coins - try looking on the UK site - and some coin docs have admitted that they have treated their coins to create these colors. >>
No argument here. The US "toned" coin market has been heavily endorsed by many reputable collectors and dealers who ultimately end up selling what they have. Many swear to the fact that they know for "absolutely positively" sure (Mike Mezak? Whatever!) that their top grade toned coin has been sitting in some old timer's manila envelope collection for a bazillion years which accounts for that beautiful "natural toning".
Personally, I'm of the opinion that many of the "toned" coins currently on the market are not the result of some "long term storage" scenario but are more than likely produced to satisfy the toned coin market which at its best, is nothing more than a "my car is shinier then your car" market. But what do I know?
<< <i>If cleaning a coin damages it and merits reporting by the grading companies, surely artificially toning merits the same treatment? >>
The cleaning of a coin is relative to the market and the guidelines established by the TPG's. Specifically, they will NOT grade a cleaned or "damaged" coin. Unless, of course, its some unusual rarity. And of course, the term "cleaned" is relative and covers everything from an "odd" looking color (it must have been cleaned) to out and out abrasive damage from an SOS or Brillo pad! But then, who is really going to whine all that much over a damaged or cleaned 1794 Starred Reverse? Graded or not, slabbed or not, these coins are definitely collectible.
<< <i>At some time in the past an unscrupulous coin dealer discovered that he could create artificially toned coins, buyers jumped on them and that is why we are where we are today. >>
Again, no argument here
<< <i>As far as I am concerned, a coin that has been artificially toned is just a tampered coin and the South African coins which are the subject of this thread are $1.50 coins that have been tampered with to grossly inflate their selling price. >>
Like Sego, I have no idea how these African coins react to their environment. I DO KNOW that some coins within a series will tone "differently" due to different cleaning and rinsing agents used by the US Mint over the life of the series. Otherwise, all Mint Sealed Eisenhower Silver Proofs would tone in the same color shades. They do not. Some are blues and some are greens. Some haze up with a bluish fog while others look like they were sprayed with pond scum and still other have no reactions at all. The 1974-S reacts totally different than a 1973-S which is different than a 1972-S or 1971-S. All 4 are different than the 1976-S which doesn't sem to react to anything!
<< <i>Scrupulous collectors and dealers should try to stop this nonsense and if NGC or PCGS grade these coins, then frankly they are complicit and they too should clean up their act. >>
I agree with this to the point that whom ever is making the accusation needs to factually know what they are talking about. As of today, I can;t say that I honestly know of anybidy, TPG or Not, that can distinguish AT from NT unless the AT happens to be enamel paint. Now, the PCGS sniffer can certainly weed these truely artificailly toned coins out but it is technologically helpless against Accelerated Toning via natural means. These coins fall under the umbrella of suspicion and most certainly are prevalent within the toned coin market place.
Now for the OP. Is eBay out of line? Absolutely since they are judging a coin "based upon a photograph and someones opinion". Photographs can be manipulated and "opinions" can be based on more than simple fact and everybody knows that you cannot professionally grade a coin from a photograph. PCGS won't do it, neither will NGC. Who the hell is this Coin Community Watch Group that supposedly can and why has eBay given them such authority?
The name is LEE!
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
Nope, no potential conflict of interest there.
<< <i>Very interesting turn of events. I wonder if those coins are sent back to PCGS along with this thread...would PCGS buy them back? >>
I personally bought these coins from three different eBay sellers and spread out over about a year period of time. I bought the first one cause I thought it was cool and pretty cheap, considering the amazing colors, great pics already provided and in PCGS. Subsequently, I bought the other two since they were a date, Country and TPGS match to the first and I thought they made a cool set. My asking price was a lot but I didn't necessarily want to sell them as much as I enjoyed showing them off.
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<< <i>What if an ebay seller were to list one of those contemporary O mint counterfeit Morgan dollars in a PCGS holder. What then? >>
Hmmm. Are you talking about a dodgy seller unscrupulously putting one of the contemporaries into a genuine slab, or do you mean a contemporary that's already been slabbed as such legitimately by PCGS? If the former, jerk the auction; if the latter, it stays imo. >>
You are missing the subtle connection to the current situation. The coins were slabbed legitimately by PCGS and subsequently determined to be counterfeit. One cannot state that' if it's good enough for PCGS then ebay has no business pulling a listing' without discussing a situation such as this. IMO, if it is shown subsequently that a coin is counterfeit, or AT, then ebay is certainly within its rights to police its site by pulling said listing - no matter what PCGS originally said about the coin.
it's one of the 3 i think they will bounce in a gennie
but i have
i've seen way too many in holders with grades
oh well my fingers are crossed still
if a coin is in their holder...it's their coin as they stamped it with their brand
to a certain decree they are defaming pcgs or at least a co-conspirator here
"customer service are you reading this?"
<< <i>. . . . .Update #2: I've been forwarded a letter allegedly from the eBay Coin Community Watch Group member who reported my listings of these same coins TWICE and eBay acted swiftly both times.
The person who forwarded me the following letter wishes to remain anonymous. This eBay Watch Group Member seems drunk with power and a complete ego maniac...
"This is from the ebay Coin Group. Feel free to out the guy on the PCGS boards but please do not mention me.
These were the coins I reported twice.
In my opinion, since any sign of cleaning is noted on a slab's label, these rainbow toned monstrosities should be described as artificially toned.
I note that the three South African dreck have been relisted as "electric toned". Since this could be interpreted as a description of the toning rather than the method used, I am reporting them again:
http://www.ebay.com/sch/ishopcoinshows4you/m.html
With regard to the OP, I have read the bleatings in the CU thread but not one of these nincompoops seems to have looked at the seller's feedback history and noted the number of rainbow toned coins the coin doc has sold. I apologise if there were members there arguing against the coin doc and his supporters." >>
My views on this "feedback" are:
1. According to eBay, the person who reported these coins as artificially toned knows more than the professional graders at PCGS, and can determine artificially toned coins from a photograph.
2. According to the person who reported these sales to eBay, the fact that the seller sells a lot of rainbow toned coins, means that he is automatically guilty of artificially toning coins.
3. The person who reported these sales to eBay is obviously not unbiased with respect to toned coins, as these phrases indicate: "rainbow toned monstrosities" and "the three South African dreck".
4. If the person who reported these coins to eBay is a better grader than PCGS, then stand up, sir and announce yourself! We already have 3rd party grading and 4th party grading (CAC), so you might as well start 5th party grading.
5. How do we know that the person reporting these coins to eBay is not a competitor of the seller, and is doing this to harm his competitor?
6. A blue toned 1964 Jefferson nickel was posted, and many suggestions were made that the buyer should return the coin to PCGS for conservation, dipping, etc. Let me take a guess that that will not happen. All I see here is that someone wanted to spend a little over $100 to acquire a bright blue toned Jefferson nickel. Where in that transaction is the great harm to the numismatic community?
6. TDN raises a good point about the Morgan dollar "micro o" counterfeits in PCGS holders. If one of these is offered on eBay, probably one of the Morgan dollar specialist collectors or dealers would buy it. Those micro o's in PCGS holders are very difficult to find, and very marketable.
Note: I am a dealer and I occasionally sell coins that have toning. People seem to want to buy a more attractive coin, that is why I carry them. I have never artificially toned a coin, but I have submitted raw coins with toning to grading services.
Edited to add: 100!
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
<< <i>then ebay is certainly within its rights to police its site by pulling said listing - no matter what PCGS originally said about the coin. >>
eBay certainly has the right to allow/disallow whatever they want on their site. Seems pretty silly to me, though, to make an announcement that as of May 30 (or whatever the date is), for the protection of the eBay community, only PCGS/NGC slabbed coins will be allowed to be listed in certain situations as they are the only approved services on the site but in other situations, PCGS/NGC slabs will not be allowed because (for the protection of the eBay community, of course) these very same TPGs cannot be depended on to accurately assess the condition of a coin to a level satisfactory to eBay (or one of its anonymous netcops, anyway).
<< <i>6. A blue toned 1964 Jefferson nickel was posted, and many suggestions were made that the buyer should return the coin to PCGS for conservation, dipping, etc. Let me take a guess that that will not happen. All I see here is that someone wanted to spend a little over $100 to acquire a bright blue toned Jefferson nickel. Where in that transaction is the great harm to the numismatic community? >>
I think there is some possible harm associated with the following:
(a) buyer dissatisfaction upon learning the coin is undisclosed AT
(b) TPG reputation as TPG brand is still associated with coins it no longer grades
(c) marketplace reputation for being known as a place where sellers take advantage of buyers
The solution proposed by the marketplace sounds simple enough:
(d) disclose the AT - which is also a PNG Code of Ethics requirement
Is the PNG Code of Ethics so terrible?
You can go further to suggest cracking out the coin and/or dipping it, but that is not what the marketplace is requiring.
<< <i>6. TDN raises a good point about the Morgan dollar "micro o" counterfeits in PCGS holders. If one of these is offered on eBay, probably one of the Morgan dollar specialist collectors or dealers would buy it. Those micro o's in PCGS holders are very difficult to find, and very marketable. >>
A good question would be whether our host appreciates these being on the market and whether the marketplace wants these on their market.