Spanish galleon shipwreck find in the Caribbean. 13 billion Euro worth of gold. New info

Justacommeman

https://www.yahoo.com/news/spanish-galleon-laden-13bn-gold-174509467.html

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Stork

That should be some interesting legal wrangling.

Off the top of anyone's head, if a 'treasure' is found in international waters, but the originating government/owner/family descendants (depending on initial ownership claims) no longer exists...how does that work? Not necessarily specific to this circumstance, but in general.

asheland

Finders keepers

coinpro76

@Stork said:
That should be some interesting legal wrangling.

Off the top of anyone's head, if a 'treasure' is found in international waters, but the originating government/owner/family descendants (depending on initial ownership claims) no longer exists...how does that work? Not necessarily specific to this circumstance, but in general.

I have heard of treasures that have been recovered, & had to be turned over to an insurance company that originally insured the shipment. There was an insurance company in the UK (I believe) that dates back ages that had the claim to a treasure, if im not mistaken.

Abuelo

This will be a huge legal battle as by law, given that this was a military vessel, belongs to Spain with all her cargo. Colombia disagrees so will see what happens.

BillDugan1959

It appears that not a single coin has been recovered as yet. This is the most important factoid of all in this instance, at this time.

Stork

I wouldn't waste time trying to recover anything without knowing what I'd get to keep...

Abuelo

@Stork said:
I wouldn't waste time trying to recover anything without knowing what I'd get to keep...

The Colombian Government was very clear, that this was a Colombian treasure. They have not disclose the location for that very reason. I am sure the Spanish Government will appeal, and the you and I will retire before they agree to something.

1960NYGiants

A few years ago the US knucklehead courts at the request of the gubermint forced a Florida recovery/salvage company to turn over all of its take to Spain on a wreck that was found in International waters.

Manfred1

@Abuelo said:
This will be a huge legal battle as by law, given that this was a military vessel, belongs to Spain with all her cargo. Colombia disagrees so will see what happens.

Fight ... fight ... oh man, i just hate peace ...

7Jaguars

I really don't get how Spain gets to loot and pillage the New World, and then somehow has a right to what they essentially stole in the first place.

Abuelo

Just because the country never gives up the ship. Imagine that in 500 years somebody finds the Arizona. That still is a US boat and whoever finds it has no right over it. That is the law.

Sapyx

@7Jaguars said:
I really don't get how Spain gets to loot and pillage the New World, and then somehow has a right to what they essentially stole in the first place.

This isn't a question of morals and ethics, this is a question of law. And legally, Spain owned the gold when it was mined, refined and put on a boat to be sent back to Spain.

@Abuelo said:
Imagine that in 500 years somebody finds the Arizona. That still is a US boat and whoever finds it has no right over it. That is the law.

This is indeed the international law and convention regarding warships. The Spanish situation is more complicated.

Every other country in the time period in question separated its merchant navy from its actual combat navy. Spain did not; every single ship that sailed under the Spanish flag was theoretically a "navy ship", even if it was a trade galleon. So in that sense, the Spanish are "cheating" by claiming every single Spanish shipwreck as a warship and therefore protected under the international conventions on wrecked warships.

Abuelo

"...if the remains of a United States or a foreign government’s ship are recovered then the law of finds does not apply since it is generally accepted that governments never abandon the search and recovery efforts for their own vessels."

Much better explained.

https://resources.lawinfo.com/admiralty-maritime/are-finders-keepers-under-the-sea-what-you-ne.html

7Jaguars

No, Sapyx I do not agree. IT IS A QUESTION of ETHICS. The gold and gems were forcefully taken under unilateral action of force and violence - maybe murder, rape, and pillage can be hidden by paper? Somehow, I think this treasure originated from slavery and murder and that even that this seems strong is really nothing compared to what methods were used to obtain it.

I do agree that the arguments as presented and with more to come are legal, just that they are moot and that Spain pursues resources that are not theirs.

Abuelo

While this is clearly an issue worthy of discussion, slavery of the natives in the Spanish colonies was forbidden since 1542 when Charles V published the Leyes Nuevas. That is not to say that they were treated kindly however.

pmac

@Abuelo said:
While this is clearly an issue worthy of discussion, slavery of the natives in the Spanish colonies was forbidden since 1542 when Charles V published the Leyes Nuevas. That is not to say that they were treated kindly however.

Slavery was abolished in the US in 1864 (?), but ...

7Jaguars

My problem with that proclamation is that in fact slavery was practiced, even as far North as Alta California, where natives were compelled to build the missions, and ranchos. 8,000+ are buried that had toiled in that manner in the back of the Santa Barbara Mission as one example.
And what was the famous silver mountain? Potosi? Or? I don't think they were working there for the Spanish voluntarily. Also, there valuables such as they were were seized and melted & they were compelled to work in the mines, etc.

Timbuk3

!!!