CNG 108 - anyone?

EVillageProwler

I got shut out. I spend over a month preparing for it: saving money, then carefully going through every lot of interest trying to assess core compatibility, actual interest, retail value and value to me.

The big day came and I agonized in a huge way because slowly it became apparent to me that the 3 lots of greatest interest to me were also of significant interest to others. In fact, the top ten lots got serious bidding. Actually, every lot of passing interest, but one, got big bids. (The one that sold at a modest level was lot 1164, a 1642 Halfpound in GVF that would have been a duplicate for me; IMHO, mine is better because mine has better surfaces.)

In the end, I pinned my hopes on two lots: 1130 and 1233. 1130 is a Series Z sceatt in EF that would have been a major upgrade for me.

Here is mine:

ANGLO-SAXON, Primary Sceattas. Circa 715-720. AR Sceatt (12mm, 1.02 g, 12h). Series Z, type 66. Mint in East Anglia or Mercia. Facing head of Christ with curled mustache and forked beard; pellets around / Hound running right with tail between legs; two pellets below head. Abramson 102.40 (same obv. die as illustration); cf. SCBI 63 (BM), 166-7; cf. Metcalf 14-1; North 145; SCBC 782. VF, die flaw on obverse, reverse off center, toned. Rare.

Ex Spink Numismatic Circular CXII.1 (February 2004), no. HS1486.

Here is lot 1130:

CNG 108, Lot: 1130. Estimate $3000.
Sold for $4500. This amount does not include the buyer’s fee.

ANGLO-SAXON, Primary Sceattas. Circa 715-720. AR Sceatt (12mm, 0.89 g, 6h). Series Z, type 66. Mint in East Anglia or Mercia. Facing head of Christ with curled mustache and forked beard; outward crescents at sides / Quadruped standing right, tail between legs; wavy line above. Abramson 102.15; SCBI 69 (Abramson), 116; SCBC 782. EF, toned, small flaw in field on reverse. Very rare.

Compare with the Triton XXI example, which to me is far superior to the CNG 108 specimen:

Triton XXI, Lot: 1323. Estimate $2000.
Sold for $7500. This amount does not include the buyer’s fee.

ANGLO-SAXON, Primary Sceattas. Circa 715-720. AR Sceatt (12mm, 1.16 g, 6h). Series Z, type 66a(i). Mint in East Anglia or Mercia. Facing head of Christ with curled mustache and forked beard; |- ••• -| above, XL to left, UV to right / Quadruped standing right, tail between legs; (L retrograde)ΛI+ above, retrograde L between legs, retrograde Γ to lower right. Abramson 102.20; Metcalf 142; SCBI –; North 145; SCBC 782. EF, toned. Exceptional. Rare.

From the Dr. JDR Collection. Ex Spink Numismatic Circular CIII.9 (November 1995), no. 6164 and front cover; Christie’s (4 November 1986), lot 364.

My lowly VF specimen is a nice coin and genuinely worthy of love (it's a rare type), but it truly pales in comparison to the Triton XXI and CNG 108 specimens.

Here is lot 1233:

CNG 108, Lot: 1233. Estimate $2000.
Sold for $5500. This amount does not include the buyer’s fee.

IRELAND, The Great Rebellion. Issues of the Lords Justices. 1642-1649. AR Crown (40.5mm, 29.54 g, 11h). “Ormond Money” issue. Struck 1643-1644. Large C R; crown above; all within linear and beaded border / Large V; S above; all within linear and beaded border. SCBI 22 (Copenhagen) 418; D&F 288; SCBC 6544. EF, lovely deep cabinet tone, a few minor die flaws. Well centered and struck. An exceptional example.

From the Jonathan K. Kern Collection. Ex Dix Noonan Webb 85 (17 March 2010), lot 763; W. B. Thorpe Collection; Spink Numismatic Circular LXXXIX.5 (May 1981), no. 4105; S. A. H. Whetmore Collection (Glendining, 14 July 1961), lot 45 (purchased from Spink, 1952).

(It hammered at £2700 in DNW 85, which is approximately $5000.)

And to round out this OP, the third lot of greatest interest for me was:

CNG 108, Lot: 1222. Estimate $2000.
Sold for $3750. This amount does not include the buyer’s fee.

SCOTLAND. Mary and Henry Stuart, Lord Darnley. 1542-1567. AR Two-thirds Ryal (38mm, 20.49 g, 10h). Fourth period. Edinburgh mint; im: thistle. Dated 1565. · MARIA · & · HENRIC9· DEI · GRA · R · & · R · SCOTORV · (bar above V), crowned coat-of-arms; thistles flanking / (thistle) · EXVRGAT · DEVS · & · DISSIPENTR · INIMICI · EI9 ·, tortoise climbing crowned palm tree decorated with banner inscribed DAT GLORIA VIRES; 15 65 across field. Burns 11; SCBI 58 (Edinburgh), 1191 (same dies); SCBC 5426. Near EF, attractively toned, slight doubling.

From the D. C. Kopen Collection, purchased from Davissons Ltd.

So, here I am now writing up my post-auction report and crying into my keyboard. And, I should give a shout out to @Nap for trying first to guide and encourage me and then later to console me.

I gotta say: this hobby is great when we get what we want, but is awfully painful when we do not.

EVP

Stork

Ouch, that hurts. Are the coins undergoing a boom in popularity, or is it just happened to be a couple of folks bidding hard? I was flipping through the lots and 1130 had jumped out at my sighthound loving self and it made me think of you. Hopefully something else will console you soon!

SmEagle1795

I was outbid on my major lots but did manage to buy a fun coin which is an upgrade for me:

My previous/current example:

worldcoinguy

Kern's multiple talers did well for the most part. Some nice ones were offered.

carabonnair

That is a nice Irish crown, sorry you didn't get it.
I see lot 965 went way over its estimate $2000, sold for $12,000.

EVillageProwler

@Stork said:
Ouch, that hurts. Are the coins undergoing a boom in popularity, or is it just happened to be a couple of folks bidding hard?

I see a split in the market. Top shelf material is hot; but anything even slightly less than top shelf is not. I do not see this as a booming market, or else the Tier-2 (good, but not great) material would also be hot. Also, CNG has a strong book and usually get active interest in their three annual published auctions.

@worldcoinguy said:
Kern's multiple talers did well for the most part. Some nice ones were offered.

Oh, yes, indeed. I was looking for some bargains there too but nope.

@carabonnair said:
That is a nice Irish crown, sorry you didn't get it.

Thanks. Maybe I can find a nice Tier-2+++ coin someday at a much more reasonable price.

@Nap told me not to jump on any rebound coins today. He's right of course. But tomorrow is a new day.

EVP

jgenn

I got one of the siege thalers.

Zohar

Got one of Kern’s double talers.

EVillageProwler

@jgenn said:
I got one of the siege thalers.

Nice! I had considered bidding on it too but held back thinking I’d need the money for one of the lots I was eying. You got that at a good price, in my opinion.

jgenn

@EVillageProwler said:
You got that at a good price, in my opinion.

That could be -- it's top pop and the only one in MS grade between here and ATS so there's not much prior auction action that's relevant.

Timbuk3

Wow !!!

SaorAlba

Just a note on lot 1222 - Mary's coinage is always hot stuff - which is can be sort of a pain if you are a Scots collector not specifically after that reign but still want nice stuff. That said I do have a portrait penny, a half lion and a Ryal.

Zohar

AUSTRIA, Holy Roman Empire. Erzherzogtum Österreich (Archduchy of Austria). Leopold I. Emperor, 1658-1705. AR Doppeltaler (57mm, 11h)1. Graz mint. Dated 1670 IAN. Laureate, draped, and cuirassed bust right within tressure of small arches / Crowned and collared coat-of-arms. Herinek 562; Davenport 292; KM 1269x. In NGC encapsulation, 1948701-(002-002), graded MS 63. Toned.

From the Jonathan K. Kern Collection.

EVillageProwler

Nice @Zohar. I took note of that lot too and like the Munster klippe held off from bidding even though I thought it was still at an affordable level.

Jon Kern was a true numismatist (he has a PhD in that field) as well as a veteran dealer. I'm sure his collection pieces are noteworthy. I own one of his sceattas and it's incredible. I've also seen one of his Northumbrian sceattas (slabbed as MS64) and it was gorgeous (but priced too high by second dealers).

Here is mine (hope you and @jgenn are as happy with yours as I am with mine):

@jgenn said:

@EVillageProwler said:
You got that at a good price, in my opinion.

That could be -- it's top pop and the only one in MS grade between here and ATS so there's not much prior auction action that's relevant.

I went by how much a nice raw ChAU-ish piece cost me.

jgenn

@EVillageProwler said:
I went by how much a nice raw ChAU-ish piece cost me.

Oh, so you have a Munster siege thaler? I'd love to see it.

EVillageProwler

@jgenn said:

@EVillageProwler said:
I went by how much a nice raw ChAU-ish piece cost me.

Oh, so you have a Munster siege thaler? I'd love to see it.

Bob13

@EVillageProwler - that was like a numismatic mic drop!

Both neat coins!

worldcoinguy

jgenn - wonderful piece. I think you did well on that one.

savitale

I didn't bid on anything, but the Greek coins I was watching went for well above estimate. Sometimes 3x the estimate. I guess I have good taste. Unfortunately too good for my wallet.

EVillageProwler

I am having a moment of reflection and, hopefully, wisdom...

After reading a thread in the light side section about a 1935 Lincoln Cent, graded PCGS MS68+ CAC, that sold for a whopping $35K in the recent Legend auction in NOLA, I can't help feeling that I did the right thing by sticking to my price levels for the coins that I wanted but did not win.

Some remarks about some specific coins:

• The Series Z sceatt in Triton XXI that hammered at $7500 was the finest known (probably), but considering the CNG 108 specimen (same type but different sub-type but that should make no difference on the value) is a tad less nice but hammered at around 40% less, well, that makes a huge difference in relative value. My coin, a lowly VF and off-center, is actually a very nice coin in hand (CNG's image makes the coin look terrible, and I didn't buy it until I saw the coin in hand) cost me 18.5% of the CNG 108 specimen.
• In the recent SB auction, there was an Irish gun money Crown in a PCGS MS62 slab that looked very nice but had significant design elements of the under-type still visible that sold for $900 hammer. But extremely specimens, raw, sell for between £300 and £450, and they will likely grade anywhere between 55 and 58 with our eyes not really able to appreciate the difference between a lowly 58 and a lofty 62 unless we micro-grade.
• The Scottish 2/3rd Ryal in CNG 108 was a nice coin, but that was also priced retail +++ when compared to other dealers with similar stock who are also reputed to price at very full retail levels.
• The Irish "Ormonde" Crown in CNG 108 that hammered at $5500 is an amazing coin. No one should dispute that. It may be the finest extant, or at least condition census. But what is a solid EF, or Near EF, specimen worth? Probably around $1500 to $2500, I guess. That's quite a price difference compared to the $6600 that the CNG 108 coin fetched.

I'm just a modest-level collector, bigger budget than some and smaller than others, but certainly not a whale in the truest connotation of the word. I will never be able to form a world class collection, but I can form an extremely nice one with patience and wisdom. I think it makes a lot of sense for me to chase coins that are really nice but not necessarily the best of the best. Like my Charles I half-pound... it's a very nice GVF at a price level that I can deal with, instead of trying to buy a nice EF that would be double in price. And of course I have managed to set quality/grade/price levels for several of the coin types that I am still eager to get at some point.

EVP

worldcoinguy

My 2 cents. I think you are underselling yourself as a modest-level collector. The pieces that you post are incredible and beyond the grasp of 90% of the people who frequent this forum. When you post a new thread, I know I am going to be treated with something unreal. Stick to your gut, maintain your discipline, and know that not all fish are meant to be caught. I would think that being a whale in a corner of this hobby could quickly lead to boredom and burnout.

sjkrose

EVillageProwler... I also got shut out during the sale! However, I did win a interesting Æthelwulf penny, with the ‘Berhtwulf’ portrait.

Rickie

EVillageProwler

@sjkrose said:
EVillageProwler... I also got shut out during the sale! However, I did win a interesting Æthelwulf penny, with the ‘Berhtwulf’ portrait.

Rickie

Pics or it never happened!

@worldcoinguy said:
My 2 cents. I think you are underselling yourself as a modest-level collector. The pieces that you post are incredible and beyond the grasp of 90% of the people who frequent this forum. When you post a new thread, I know I am going to be treated with something unreal. Stick to your gut, maintain your discipline, and know that not all fish are meant to be caught. I would think that being a whale in a corner of this hobby could quickly lead to boredom and burnout.

Thanks for the nice words. I'm deeply humbled. Hopefully I'll be able to continue for a while longer before either financial or emotional burnout. (That happened to me with light side collecting.) But at least I'll get to retain the relationships developed from this wonderful hobby.

EVP

sjkrose

LOL, I understand... I guess everybody likes images!

jt88

CNG 108, Lot: 1213. Estimate $500.
Sold for $1200. This amount does not include the buyer’s fee.

HANOVER. George IV. 1820-1830. AV Sovereign (22.5mm, 7.96 g, 6h). London mint. Dated 1821. Laureate head left / Pistrucci's St. George and the Dragon; 1821 in exergue. Bentley 12: Marsh 5; SCBC 3800. VF.

Nap

Sorry for the losses. I also lost my lot of interest in this auction. I had a meeting at the time the lot ended and could not reschedule. My advance maximum bid was not to hold.

It would have been an upgrade for this Northumbrian sceat:

Alchred of Northumbria, with "fantastic creature" right

I have an example of the series Z sceat. It is a bear to photograph as the obverse relief is low, here is the best I could do:

And since EVP shared a Kentish series K, here is my example of that:

Sjkrose, that coin looks familiar, was it from a recent DNW sale? The JQA provenance is neat. Although I think I recall reading that it was Charles Francis Adams who aquired many of the coins in the collection during the US Civil War, when he was a diplomat in England (trying to keep the British from recognizing the Confederacy).

sjkrose

Yes it is from the recent DNW sale! I guess the pervious owner took the liberty to write on the envelope.