What happened to this Mexican 8 Reales?
OriginalDan
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This past Friday I had a little time left at the end of my day so I headed over to the Santa Clara coin show. It's not a big show, I can't figure out how we don't have any bigger shows here in the bay area given how many collectors reside in this area and how much history we are surrounded by. Anyway....I walked pretty much the whole floor in about an hour and didn't see much. Got a bunch of grumpy looks and half-arsed efforts to find a coin for me when asking "do you have any chopmarked coins". I understand that most dealers don't stock them, but a simple "no, I don't have any right now" would suffice.
There was one dealer who had a stack of neat portrait 8 reales with lots of chopmarks. He was also very happy to show them to me and chat about them, and how easy to find and cheap they used to be back in the 60's. Apparently back then you could pick them up for a few bucks each by the truckload in China. Since I hadn't picked anything up at the show and not wanting to leave empty handed, I picked up the curiosity below as a cheap fix.
I think I know what's going on with this one, would be interested in alternate theories. Here's what I'm seeing:
- looks like an 1818 Mo-JJ Mexican 8 reales, with Ferdinand VII portrait
- looks like saltwater damage on the coin
- looks like the chopmarks were applied AFTER the saltwater damage? Sure looks like there are sharply defined chops on top of corroded areas. If it was chopped prior to the saltwater damage, I would expect the chopped areas to also be corroded.
Agree? What's not making sense to me is how there would be chopmarks after the saltwater damage? Maybe it sat at the bottom of a boat, made many voyages and corroded over time, then someone picked it up and threw it in on a transaction? Or possibly my eyes are playing tricks on me.
Any other theories?
Comments
You need to pull out the electronic scales.
I'm guessing that it was bad (counterfeit) from the start. That start might have been 200 years ago, or anytime since. Perhaps the 'coin' was plated at one time. The core might not be silver. The outer metal layer looks better than the core on this thingie.
Chop marks might be old, or they might have been applied much later too.
However, some places during the First Mexican Revolution turned out some highly inferior coin product.
Finally, if the seller gave you a bunch of happy happy talk, well that's slightly suspicious too.
Your thought process seems to be resistant to the chance (likelihood?) that the thingie is bad.
I think you already know the answer. As you wrote, decades ago chop marked coins were considered to be junk by most dealers. I snagged my lightly chopped AU 1875-S/CC for $20 while looking through several piles of Trade dollars. Unfortunately, at that time, I did not know about the various types or doubled dies or how interesting chops can be.
Otherwise, I would have had a splendid collection!
Chops on coins have become popular and IMO, they will become more expensive as we learn more about specific marks. Monday, I'll post a type of chop rarely seen. Anyway, when something gets popular, prices go up and counterfeiters move in. I've been looking at chops using a stereo microscope for a number of years and there are characteristics of some that do not make sense. As you have written, the reason the chops were applied to your coin does not make sense o me. Nevertheless, I would have bought it for possibly the same reason you did.
PS The only way I can think of that a chop would not appear to be corroded by the saltwater is the compressed metal due to the chop is not as susceptible to corrosion.
It sure looks like a plated coin to me. Even damaged like that, you can still check its specific gravity. Chopping after the corrosion incident may have been done to check for a different alloy under the surface. Early plated coins could easily be detected by chops. Later counterfeits may have made the silver plating just thick enough to pass a chop test.
@BillDugan1959 said: "You need to pull out the electronic scales. I'm guessing that it was bad (counterfeit) from the start."
I disagree. I don't think it is a "Sheffield plate" contemporary C/F. IMHO, there is nothing on the surface of that coin including the silver color and the gray color that makes it look anything but a corroded coin. Weighing a coin it that condition will prove nothing and its specific gravity will not be reliable. Many coins recovered from wrecks have an extremely low SG.
The condition of the chops is unusual, not anything else about the coin.
Perhaps the OP should get out a magnet and see if it sticks. That's the second thing that I would have done when I got it home (IF I took it home at all). Weighing it is first, of course. I don't like how the King's profile is done here either. Frankly, I probably would have passed on the coin.
Earnest question: How can the specific gravity of a uniform silver alloy be changed by saltwater corrosion?
The coin is underweight, as expected (23.71g). Should be 27.07g, but there's a bunch missing.
Here's a bigger version in case anyone wants to inspect more closely.
I don't have reason to doubt that it's an authentic mexican 8 reales. It could possibly have been a silver contemporary counterfeit, but I don't think it was plated. The base metal would have been exposed at this point. The iridescent toning is interesting, probably an effect from whatever wash was used when the coin was cleaned.
Thanks for the input so far guys. Kind of fun to imagine the journey this one has taken. The coin looks as if it was worn to VF details, prior to the corrosion. I just can't explain the sequence of events that appear, with the chopmarks still well defined.
Yes, I imagine a copper core would be easy to see, copper being more resistant than silver to saltwater.
Air pockets.
Appears to be die struck without any major irregularities in the design. Heavy corrosion that appears layered in some places, giving it a plated look, however the exposed metal does not look like a lesser quality core of the Sheffield plate, so I'm leaning towards it being authentic. The chops do appear to have been applied later.
8 Reales Madness Collection
For me, the obvious theory (suspicion) is that the chops are not original. What did the rest of the dealer's stock look like? Did all the chops look like these? Were all the host coins low grade or damaged?
I do not have a ton of experience with CMs, and I have a lot to learn. But, the threat of modern forgeries is very real and I believe that all CMed coins should be approached with a degree of skepticism unless/until their authenticity is reasonably ascertained by taking into account all factors. In the case of your coin, there are some major issues/doubts from the start.
As I reflect on your summation of the dealer's comments this stands out: "He was also very happy to show them to me and chat about them, and how easy to find and cheap they used to be back in the 60's. Apparently back then you could pick them up for a few bucks each by the truckload in China."
That might very well be 100% accurate but I also have to wonder who was going to China in the 1960s to buy chopmarked coins. China was not opened up to the West until 1972 by President Nixon. Also, who wanted them back then? As heavily damaged silver coins they were basically just bullion, weren't they, so why go to a closed China to buy bullion? Too many red flags (no pun intended) for my appetite.
One more thing: the counterstamps mostly appear to be wide and rounded. This for me is reminiscent of modern mass-produced letter punches made in China or India. Custom made punches and vintage ones (incl mass-produced) tend to be sharper (create a more "V" shaped indentation than a broader rounded one).
Who cares how they got out. In the 1960's the stuff was all over the place. I don't know of any dealer ever visiting China but a bunch of them I knew attended shows in Europe. Some are still alive and may be members here and can give us their insight.
Back then British Trade dollars and 8 Reales were all over the place and cheap too until one famous "Ex-Pert authenticator-in-his-own-mind" started calling every struck genuine coin he saw a "cast counterfeit." Killed the market.
This brings up another question that I have always wondered about. (Maybe the answer is well know, but not by me.)
How did all the CMed coins get out of the Orient? Did they come back to the US/Europe back in the trading days, or in the decades afterward, or after China was re-opened to the West in the early 1970s? I was always curious about this.
Glad the discussion continues...
You know the dealer may not have specifically said "the 60's" but he sure looked like he took a bunch of fun trips in the 60's so I probably filled that part in myself. Could have been the 70's.
I've looked at a lot of chopmarked coins, probably more than anyone on this board. I wanted to hear what others said before I chimed in with this, but I'm seeing chopmarks from the latter part of the 1800's. Similar timeframe to U.S. Trade Dollars and the later Cap & Rays 8 reales.
What's interesting to me about that is it leaves time for the coin to (corrode about 50 years), then pick up some chopmarks. What's still puzzling is why it would still be accepted and chopped, but there are plenty of examples of underweight coins with chops, so we know they weren't strictly an acceptance of proper weight. More likely they were an acceptance of genuine silver/content.
I picked up one additional coin from the dealer, an 1806 Mexican 8 Reales, Carlos IIII portrait. Again, the chopmarks look totally legitimate to me, just like the 1818. Other than the odd iridescent toning, they have the right look both condition wise and the chopmarks. He had about 4 or 5 others like this, none looked too similar or shared the same chop over and over.
@OriginalDan said: "...but I'm seeing chopmarks from the latter part of the 1800's. Similar timeframe to U.S. Trade Dollars and the later Cap & Rays 8 reales.
What's interesting to me about that is it leaves time for the coin to (corrode about 50 years), then pick up some chopmarks. What's still puzzling is why it would still be accepted and chopped, but there are plenty of examples of underweight coins with chops, so we know they weren't strictly an acceptance of proper weight. More likely they were an acceptance of genuine silver/content."
Makes sense based on what you've written. So the coin passed at a discount due to the corroded state it was in. Right?
The fact that they were all over the place as "junk" at one time confirms they "came back." Perhaps it is like the coin hoards we once saw- bags of uncleaned ancients or medieval billion.
Looks perfectly genuine. Looking at the blown up photo, I think all of the chopmarks have some granularity at the bottom consistent with corrosion. None appear "fresh" to me. I can't say for certain that they were applied before being immersed in saltwater, but they appear to have been. I also see several areas that appear to be chopmarks that have corroded away. You'll notice that the areas with the sharp chopmarks seem to have better preserved metal around the chopmarks. The areas with more porous metal, appear to have chopmarks that have corroded away and left only a rough outline. I think it all just boils down to the random elements of the environment in which this was submerged.
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@CIVITAS I think you may be right. Your comment that " areas with the sharp chopmarks seem to have better preserved metal around the chopmarks" appears true, except for one area around 11 o'clock on the reverse. But that may just be an illusion, or possibly an area that was originally rough from die rust or something, that I was counting as corrosion.
I'm now thinking the chops could have originated closer to the date on the coin, since there was a short period around that time where you find larger chopmarks on the coinage. You'll see a lot of Carolus III/IIII primarily with small chops, but then the few chopped Ferdinands mostly come with the larger chops. Either there was a shift in trends, or the Ferdinands were only accepted in a different location where larger chops were preferred, or maybe the Ferd's weren't accepted until later when larger chops had become popular.
In the end, I'm happy picking up a cheap little artifact with a cool story to go along with it. Took a boat ride to China, picked up some chopmarks, took another boat ride, sunk to the bottom of the ocean, someone recovered it...or something along these lines, who knows.
IMO, this is an unusual chop on a 1784-Mo,FF 8 Reales:
@Insider2, If I remember my kanji correctly, that’s the character for “silver.”
Duh, You are absolutely correct. Thanks. Now I remember "yin" (silver) is seen on silver taels, etc. I did not recall seeing a "modern" style chop as this on any 8 reales.
I like the iridescence on these pieces - combined with the porosity from the salt water it gives them a neat impression of mother-of-pearl. I see no outstanding evidence to suggest that these are forgeries, and have no problem believing that they could have been immersed, recovered, and then chopped. Given that silver circulated by weight and authenticity of the silver rather than validity or visual appeal of the host coin, it seems feasible that a hoard of silver could have been recovered, and rather than melting the recovered coins into bullion/sycee, the middleman was cut out and the coins were simply reintroduced to circulation. No alloy, no problem.