@Icollecteverything said:
There are only 3 known total, slabbed or Unc. or not? No one found another one ever? Just three coins struck from one die?
I was wondering about this, too, and why all 3 known coins are MS. Long ago I looked thru my circulated 1958 cents for one of these, just in case luck was with me. Only thing I can think is that the Mint caught this doubled die pretty quickly and few escaped the Mint.
I'll take a guess, because only two others (so far) can own one. Furthermore, I read that he is trying to assemble a complete set of US coins. However, as you have done with your Registry Set of T$, anyone forming a "complete set" of any coin can choose to leave anything out of it they wish. Consequently, this coin does not need to be in any "complete" set of Lincoln cents.
Kinda of funny reading some of the stories. they leave out a lot of facts
I met Charlie around 1994, I knew Charlie's name as Breen listed him in his Encyclopedia as the source of the 1858
and Wexler met Charlie in the 1980s and included the 1958 DDO in his Lincoln Cent Doubled Die book in the back as
a last minute edition. I wrote extensively about my encounter with Charlie in my Authoritative Reference on Lincoln Cents
with John Wexler. I also spoke to Del about his viewing of the three coins.
I met Charlie at my mother-in-law's house, he had one of the 58s with him, along with other cool error coins.
Charlie claimed that he was a retired Phila cop, which I comfirmed, and he claimed he never worked at the Philadelphia Mint,
which on research, I found he had worked at the Phila Mint in the mid-1940s.
My belief was that Charlie was not working at the Mint in 1958, but had contacts there, where he was able to obtain
the three 1958 doubled die specimens.
Charlie claimed that this was the only specimen he had left, he claimed that he sold one specimen for $1,000 several years
back, which was untrue. I immediately noticed that the marks (dirt) on the coin I photoed were different than on Wexler's
coin. I could have, should have, bought the specimen for probably $8K then, big mistake. Instead contacted Sam Lukes
to sell the coin. Some time after, I met Stewart and we became good friends, I gave Stewart Charlie's contact info, and
Stewart was able to obtain the second specimen, and also became good friends with Charlie, even taking Charlie out to
PCGS one time, which from what I heard, made Charlie's year.
Charlie was a good man, slightly paranoid, but from his error coins, I know he enjoyed looking for coins. Charlie had lied
to me several times, but I believe he had done so to protect the value of the coins, if people knew Charlie admitted to
getting them from someone inside the Mint, they might be worth less, and he could have gotten someone or himself in
trouble. This is why he planted the seed with his 1960 article, then 70s, then showed to Wexler, Del......
I absolutely believe Charlie was able to obtain this coins internally from the Mint.
Most likely, the dies were created, the dies made it to the coining presses, and according to normal procedures,
several are struck, then examined, where the doubling was found, and the die removed, with the coins more than likely
kept by the Coiner and made their way to Charlie.
Of course with the 1955 DDO, there was a rush to strike Lincoln cents based upon several disasters and the need for
small change, which most likely caused the skipping of quality assurance, and when the doubling was found, the supervisor
decided to release the batch of coins rather than melt those coins and all other cents mixed in during that night
@tradedollarnut said:
I doubt a complete set includes all die varieties
As I wrote above, I agree with your post 100%.
Anyone forming a "complete set" of any coin can choose to leave anything out of it they wish as some coins are either unknown at the time the set was put together or almost unique. Time takes care of things. Why should a 1955/55 cent, 3-leg buffalo, or 1919 DDO dime be included in a "complete set?"
Kevin j and I have been good friends. Yes he introduced me to the man who had all 3
1958 DDO’s. He is no longer alive.
I did what Kevin and others could not do which was obtain a 1958 DDO. When I got it, it was in an accugrade holder. Now it is in a PCGSMS 65 red holder and is the finest known.
The reason neither my coin or the third specimen is not on coin facts is because I requested
that they not be published.
One does need a 1958 DDO if they need a Registry set of major varieties of Lincoln Cents
1909 - 1958. And DL Hansen lives to complete his set of major variety Lincoln Cents.
And he is complete except for the 1958 DDO
I can also state unequivocally there were more than 3 1958 DDO’s struck.
Furthermore the coins were not stolen from the mint.
I even have a letter from the Philadelphia mint stating the 1958 DDO is an
Authentic mint product.
Yeah, no question here, Stewart is the man, not only in his collection, but on his knowledge on grading, knowing the market,
and treating people in a way that makes them feel good about a transaction. I know Charlie would not admit he had more
specimens, yet Stewart was able to find a way to obtain the second specimen, surprised me and others, and I know
Charlie and Stewart remained friends for several years after the sale.
Kinda wish I knew Stewart in 1994 and pointed Charlie to Stewart on the first specimen.......
On a side note, on the first specimen I examined, I believed it immediately to be a true mint product, natural color,
no signs of being a counterfeit, but most important, had several nicks, as would be expected from a coin dumped
into a bin after being struck, not handled by hand after being struck. The design elements are as expected on a
1958 cent.
I know I had, over the years bought and search through probably 200-300 rolls of original 1958 cents, I know others
such as Ken Potter have done much more. LOL, of course if I come across an original 58 roll, I will still search even
though I know no more exist.
@tradedollarnut said:
Interesting...I had thought that at least 5 had to exist for a coin to be required as a variety
No disrespect but where did this "5" come from? Is it something the folks running the Sets specify? I know that in the past, several major TPGS's have refused to authenticate an obvious MAJOR variety such as a doubled die or overdate until other examples were discovered. A very sad practice IMO.
@tradedollarnut said:
Interesting...I had thought that at least 5 had to exist for a coin to be required as a variety
No disrespect but where did this "5" come from? Is it something the folks running the Sets specify? I know that in the past, several major TPGS's have refused to authenticate an obvious MAJOR variety such as a doubled die or overdate until other examples were discovered. A very sad practice IMO.
This is the gray area of the registry sets. The "complete" variety sets piggyback the CPG varieties to the letter. The "Major Varieties" set is left up to Ron Guth's imagination. For several years, I tried to get PCGS to reverse what I considered an error when they dropped the 1970-S DDO, and added the 1971 DDO to the major variety set. Completely backwards in my mind. I got no where in my attempts. 70-s will always be favored by collectors over the 71 regardless of what is included in the majors.
The "rule of 5" is what PCGS stated would be necessary for them to attribute and recognize a coin for attribution and addition to the sets. Adding the 58 DDO was pretty much the persistent lobbying of one particular person Of course I could be wrong, but ... some things I'm better at making an educated guess than others.
" Adding the 58 DDO was pretty much the persistent lobbying of one particular person Of course I could be wrong, but ... some things I'm better at making an educated guess than others."
@tradedollarnut said:
Interesting...I had thought that at least 5 had to exist for a coin to be required as a variety
No disrespect but where did this "5" come from? Is it something the folks running the Sets specify? I know that in the past, several major TPGS's have refused to authenticate an obvious MAJOR variety such as a doubled die or overdate until other examples were discovered. A very sad practice IMO.
$336K hammer. I assume that's before the BP so $400k ish. I guess Rick was closest with his $500K prediction. Looks like Lincolns are still alive and well.
@specialist said:
I was told for as much as this thing sold for tonight, ESM got body slammed on it and LOST money. I have not verified that
I don't believe that to be true based on limited knowledge from people who really know. He took a bath on some, and made money on others. What else is new in the sale of complete sets.
@kevinj said:
Kinda of funny reading some of the stories. they leave out a lot of facts
I met Charlie around 1994, I knew Charlie's name as Breen listed him in his Encyclopedia as the source of the 1858
and Wexler met Charlie in the 1980s and included the 1958 DDO in his Lincoln Cent Doubled Die book in the back as
a last minute edition. I wrote extensively about my encounter with Charlie in my Authoritative Reference on Lincoln Cents
with John Wexler. I also spoke to Del about his viewing of the three coins.
I met Charlie at my mother-in-law's house, he had one of the 58s with him, along with other cool error coins.
Charlie claimed that he was a retired Phila cop, which I comfirmed, and he claimed he never worked at the Philadelphia Mint,
which on research, I found he had worked at the Phila Mint in the mid-1940s.
My belief was that Charlie was not working at the Mint in 1958, but had contacts there, where he was able to obtain
the three 1958 doubled die specimens.
Charlie claimed that this was the only specimen he had left, he claimed that he sold one specimen for $1,000 several years
back, which was untrue. I immediately noticed that the marks (dirt) on the coin I photoed were different than on Wexler's
coin. I could have, should have, bought the specimen for probably $8K then, big mistake. Instead contacted Sam Lukes
to sell the coin. Some time after, I met Stewart and we became good friends, I gave Stewart Charlie's contact info, and
Stewart was able to obtain the second specimen, and also became good friends with Charlie, even taking Charlie out to
PCGS one time, which from what I heard, made Charlie's year.
Charlie was a good man, slightly paranoid, but from his error coins, I know he enjoyed looking for coins. Charlie had lied
to me several times, but I believe he had done so to protect the value of the coins, if people knew Charlie admitted to
getting them from someone inside the Mint, they might be worth less, and he could have gotten someone or himself in
trouble. This is why he planted the seed with his 1960 article, then 70s, then showed to Wexler, Del......
I absolutely believe Charlie was able to obtain this coins internally from the Mint.
Most likely, the dies were created, the dies made it to the coining presses, and according to normal procedures,
several are struck, then examined, where the doubling was found, and the die removed, with the coins more than likely
kept by the Coiner and made their way to Charlie.
Of course with the 1955 DDO, there was a rush to strike Lincoln cents based upon several disasters and the need for
small change, which most likely caused the skipping of quality assurance, and when the doubling was found, the supervisor
decided to release the batch of coins rather than melt those coins and all other cents mixed in during that night
The website says "Sold $336,000". The question is whether $336,000 is the hammer or the price with the juice. The Stack's site doesn't indicate whether the juice is included or not. During bidding, it shows the hammer without the juice.
The Heritage site is more clear about price with and without the juice.
Specialist - You need to stop running your mouth when you don't have The facts.
Andy sold ESM the 58 DDO for about $ 160,000.
He doubled his money on the coin
You should have asked me. I know a thing or two about Lincoln Cents.
Strong price for an interesting coin. I was surprised to see it go for that much, but considering it attracts "non error" collectors as well, it's not as surprising it sold for "big money." It's in the same arena as the 1943 coppers--error and non error collectors alike are strong buyers.
@STEWARTBLAYNUMIS said:
Specialist - You need to stop running your mouth when you don't have The facts.
Andy sold ESM the 58 DDO for about $ 160,000.
He doubled his money on the coin
You should have asked me. I know a thing or two about Lincoln Cents.
There were multiple comments from a well-knowing copper specialist in the auction room that ESM lost a substantial amount of money on the "Big 3" in the auction...in fact, the known seller to Pete was broadcasting this quite freely once the Auction was over...
Comments
There are only 3 known total, slabbed or Unc. or not? No one found another one ever? Just three coins struck from one die?
Successful BST deals with mustangt and jesbroken. Now EVERYTHING is for sale.
Maybe it was a special order.
I was wondering about this, too, and why all 3 known coins are MS. Long ago I looked thru my circulated 1958 cents for one of these, just in case luck was with me. Only thing I can think is that the Mint caught this doubled die pretty quickly and few escaped the Mint.
It depends on the pivot point for the doubling.
BHNC #203
The ESM Pete Miller coin is the same coin as was reported by Eagle Eye.
Sam Luke’s conned Rick to bid on the coin in a Sam Luke’s fake auction
However today this coin is six figures
The other MS64 red coin is in hibernation until
Trade Dollar Nut decides to collect Lincoln Cents
Sigh.... another dream coin.
I'll take a guess, because only two others (so far) can own one. Furthermore, I read that he is trying to assemble a complete set of US coins. However, as you have done with your Registry Set of T$, anyone forming a "complete set"
of any coin can choose to leave anything out of it they wish. Consequently, this coin does not need to be in any "complete" set of Lincoln cents. 
I doubt a complete set includes all die varieties
Kinda of funny reading some of the stories. they leave out a lot of facts
I met Charlie around 1994, I knew Charlie's name as Breen listed him in his Encyclopedia as the source of the 1858
and Wexler met Charlie in the 1980s and included the 1958 DDO in his Lincoln Cent Doubled Die book in the back as
a last minute edition. I wrote extensively about my encounter with Charlie in my Authoritative Reference on Lincoln Cents
with John Wexler. I also spoke to Del about his viewing of the three coins.
I met Charlie at my mother-in-law's house, he had one of the 58s with him, along with other cool error coins.
Charlie claimed that he was a retired Phila cop, which I comfirmed, and he claimed he never worked at the Philadelphia Mint,
which on research, I found he had worked at the Phila Mint in the mid-1940s.
My belief was that Charlie was not working at the Mint in 1958, but had contacts there, where he was able to obtain
the three 1958 doubled die specimens.
Charlie claimed that this was the only specimen he had left, he claimed that he sold one specimen for $1,000 several years
back, which was untrue. I immediately noticed that the marks (dirt) on the coin I photoed were different than on Wexler's
coin. I could have, should have, bought the specimen for probably $8K then, big mistake. Instead contacted Sam Lukes
to sell the coin. Some time after, I met Stewart and we became good friends, I gave Stewart Charlie's contact info, and
Stewart was able to obtain the second specimen, and also became good friends with Charlie, even taking Charlie out to
PCGS one time, which from what I heard, made Charlie's year.
Charlie was a good man, slightly paranoid, but from his error coins, I know he enjoyed looking for coins. Charlie had lied
to me several times, but I believe he had done so to protect the value of the coins, if people knew Charlie admitted to
getting them from someone inside the Mint, they might be worth less, and he could have gotten someone or himself in
trouble. This is why he planted the seed with his 1960 article, then 70s, then showed to Wexler, Del......
I absolutely believe Charlie was able to obtain this coins internally from the Mint.
Most likely, the dies were created, the dies made it to the coining presses, and according to normal procedures,
several are struck, then examined, where the doubling was found, and the die removed, with the coins more than likely
kept by the Coiner and made their way to Charlie.
Of course with the 1955 DDO, there was a rush to strike Lincoln cents based upon several disasters and the need for
small change, which most likely caused the skipping of quality assurance, and when the doubling was found, the supervisor
decided to release the batch of coins rather than melt those coins and all other cents mixed in during that night
Kevin
As I wrote above, I agree with your post 100%.
Anyone forming a "complete set" of any coin can choose to leave anything out of it they wish as some coins are either unknown at the time the set was put together or almost unique. Time takes care of things. Why should a 1955/55 cent, 3-leg buffalo, or 1919 DDO dime be included in a "complete set?"
kevinj, Thanks for the great read.
Stewart, Do you concur with these events as Mr. Flynn has laid them out?
92k with juice
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Interesting coin. I am going to be one of the many on the sidelines waiting to see what it brings.
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
Kevin j and I have been good friends. Yes he introduced me to the man who had all 3
1958 DDO’s. He is no longer alive.
I did what Kevin and others could not do which was obtain a 1958 DDO. When I got it, it was in an accugrade holder. Now it is in a PCGSMS 65 red holder and is the finest known.
The reason neither my coin or the third specimen is not on coin facts is because I requested
that they not be published.
One does need a 1958 DDO if they need a Registry set of major varieties of Lincoln Cents
1909 - 1958. And DL Hansen lives to complete his set of major variety Lincoln Cents.
And he is complete except for the 1958 DDO
Stewart
Interesting...I had thought that at least 5 had to exist for a coin to be required as a variety
I can also state unequivocally there were more than 3 1958 DDO’s struck.
Furthermore the coins were not stolen from the mint.
I even have a letter from the Philadelphia mint stating the 1958 DDO is an
Authentic mint product.
TradeDollarNut. Sometimes you are wrong, just ask Laura
Why didn’t/don’t you want your coin in CoinFacts?
Did you have the 3rd specimen graded too? If not, I didn’t realize you could request to have another coin not included.
Yeah, no question here, Stewart is the man, not only in his collection, but on his knowledge on grading, knowing the market,
and treating people in a way that makes them feel good about a transaction. I know Charlie would not admit he had more
specimens, yet Stewart was able to find a way to obtain the second specimen, surprised me and others, and I know
Charlie and Stewart remained friends for several years after the sale.
Kinda wish I knew Stewart in 1994 and pointed Charlie to Stewart on the first specimen.......
On a side note, on the first specimen I examined, I believed it immediately to be a true mint product, natural color,
no signs of being a counterfeit, but most important, had several nicks, as would be expected from a coin dumped
into a bin after being struck, not handled by hand after being struck. The design elements are as expected on a
1958 cent.
I know I had, over the years bought and search through probably 200-300 rolls of original 1958 cents, I know others
such as Ken Potter have done much more. LOL, of course if I come across an original 58 roll, I will still search even
though I know no more exist.
Kevin
No disrespect but where did this "5" come from? Is it something the folks running the Sets specify? I know that in the past, several major TPGS's have refused to authenticate an obvious MAJOR variety such as a doubled die or overdate until other examples were discovered. A very sad practice IMO.
This is the gray area of the registry sets. The "complete" variety sets piggyback the CPG varieties to the letter. The "Major Varieties" set is left up to Ron Guth's imagination. For several years, I tried to get PCGS to reverse what I considered an error when they dropped the 1970-S DDO, and added the 1971 DDO to the major variety set. Completely backwards in my mind. I got no where in my attempts. 70-s will always be favored by collectors over the 71 regardless of what is included in the majors.
The "rule of 5" is what PCGS stated would be necessary for them to attribute and recognize a coin for attribution and addition to the sets. Adding the 58 DDO was pretty much the persistent lobbying of one particular person
Of course I could be wrong, but ... some things I'm better at making an educated guess than others.
" Adding the 58 DDO was pretty much the persistent lobbying of one particular person
Of course I could be wrong, but ... some things I'm better at making an educated guess than others."
Ummm, I think your spot on.
See multiple threads in the Set Registry forum
Thanks, those that provide the Registry platform, make the rules.
$336K hammer. I assume that's before the BP so $400k ish. I guess Rick was closest with his $500K prediction. Looks like Lincolns are still alive and well.
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase/2819
I was told for as much as this thing sold for tonight, ESM got body slammed on it and LOST money. I have not verified that
Interesting. Would be good to hear if it's verified.
At $403,200, it sold for a healthy 3.2x PCGS Price Guide at $125,000.
I don't believe that to be true based on limited knowledge from people who really know. He took a bath on some, and made money on others. What else is new in the sale of complete sets.
Who do we think purchased it? Any guesses..
My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
I stand by my comment about ESM losing money. A major copper dealer who would know was at the sale telling people that.
Did it really got for $400G? The web site shows $336G. I am confused
It went cheap.
Delloy was not the buyer but he was in a shoot out
I know a big copper dealer that doesn't know what he is talking about - actually he does he's just spinning it.
Hmm, guess he was unhappy he did not slam it on him then. As i said, unverified. ESM, class act, nice guy
I think the winning bid was $280k. With 20% buyer fee, final price $336k.
My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
How can someone like Dell lose in a shootout?
My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
336k
https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-9I81X
Do you know of another Lincoln cent that even remotely approached this price point?
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
The 1943 coppers have sold for over $1 million
43D Copper,
unique,
ex Denver mint employee estate item.
Extraordinary. And to think that Stewart has a better one!
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
The website says "Sold $336,000". The question is whether $336,000 is the hammer or the price with the juice. The Stack's site doesn't indicate whether the juice is included or not. During bidding, it shows the hammer without the juice.
The Heritage site is more clear about price with and without the juice.
$336k includes the juice
Good to know. So still healthy at about 2.7x of PCGS Price Guide then.
Specialist - You need to stop running your mouth when you don't have The facts.
Andy sold ESM the 58 DDO for about $ 160,000.
He doubled his money on the coin
You should have asked me. I know a thing or two about Lincoln Cents.
100
Strong price for an interesting coin. I was surprised to see it go for that much, but considering it attracts "non error" collectors as well, it's not as surprising it sold for "big money." It's in the same arena as the 1943 coppers--error and non error collectors alike are strong buyers.
There were multiple comments from a well-knowing copper specialist in the auction room that ESM lost a substantial amount of money on the "Big 3" in the auction...in fact, the known seller to Pete was broadcasting this quite freely once the Auction was over...