I think if you try to establish a guideline for toned coin prices, it will be woefully inaccurate. Prices are all over the place. There are so many factors: different types of toning, different colors, certain dates with certain colors, etc.
However, I do agree that PCGS should be updating their price guides to more accurately reflect auction prices. I think they don't want to do this because in many cases (at least with Lincolns) the BN and RB prices will be multiples of RD prices.
@Zoins said:
ATS uses a * which collectors and the market seems to like and reward.
I like this idea. It would definitely make me happy if PCGS did this for attractively toned coins.
Of course they would have to believe to the best of their professional ability that the color wasn't the result of someone's work with a chemistry set. (I know. Much easier said than done but they QC coins on a regular basis and I guess what I'm saying is that this should always be in a professional grader's mind.)
@Zoins said:
ATS uses a * which collectors and the market seems to like and reward.
I like this idea. It would definitely make me happy if PCGS did this for attractively toned coins.
Of course they would have to believe to the best of their professional ability that the color wasn't the result of someone's work with a chemistry set. (I know. Much easier said than done but they QC coins on a regular basis and I guess what I'm saying is that this should always be in a professional grader's mind.)
PCGS already does this as part of the slabbing process. If they think it's from a chemistry set, the coin gets a QC grade.
@Zoins said:
ATS uses a * which collectors and the market seems to like and reward.
I like this idea. It would definitely make me happy if PCGS did this for attractively toned coins.
Of course they would have to believe to the best of their professional ability that the color wasn't the result of someone's work with a chemistry set. (I know. Much easier said than done but they QC coins on a regular basis and I guess what I'm saying is that this should always be in a professional grader's mind.)
PCGS already does this as part of the slabbing process. If they think it's from a chemistry set, the coin gets a QC grade.
I know. What I'm primarily saying is I like the idea of adding "*" to a nicely toned slab label. I was just saying if they did this, they should CONTINUE to QC coins.
Sorry if my way of expressing this was confusing.
@deefree49 said: "I woke up this morning and checked this thread to find it was at the top of the list. That honestly surprised me. I also didn't have expectations about how the responses would be. (I haven't been a very active thread person so where the consensus would end up was something I had no idea about.)
I would at least like to see toned coins put in the RB category. That seems more in line with auction pricing and with the actual description of an attractively toned coin. If a coin still has natural luster and toning, I really feel RB would be a more accurate designation on the slab label. OK. I'm ready. Give me your worst!
OK, since you asked for it....READ THE THREAD! Again.
@Ronyahski said: "So rather than grade the toning on copper coins, the TPGs should get rid of the RD-RB-BN designation. It is the equivalent of grading silver coins White-GreyWhite-Grey. It's not done for silver coins, and is not needed for copper coins. That would even the playing field somewhat for attractively toned copper coins."
IMO, it is pretty obvious that you need to learn more about the history of coin grading in this country and especially how color became important with regard to copper coins. I might suggest you start with a book called Penny Whimsy. Then for a more thorough explanation the EAC has published a grading guide for copper with some nice color images.
@BryceM said: "Most people who collect and trade in copper deal with the current system without too much trouble."
Absolutely.
@Ronyahski Previously I posted: "IMO, it is pretty obvious that you need to learn more about the history of coin grading in this country and especially how color became important with regard to copper coins." Yikes! It seems I owe you an apology.
Please educate us about this statement from you about the period before any grading services were around: "There was a time when most people who collected and traded in copper had a system without RD/RB/BN. IN fact, they valued an original brown coin as much as an original red coin. They didn't have much trouble with their current system... they didn't have TPGs."
@BryceM said: "Maybe we're speaking a bit of a different language. From a metallurgical or chemical basis, almost all of what we call toning, whether it be on copper, silver, nickel, or gold is a result of chemical reactions between the metal(s) at the surface and the environment. Of course all RB and BN coins have been chemically toned."
IMO, some folks who are knowledgeable chemists (I'll use Mr. White as an example because he is not here to defend himself) make our discussions too technical due to their "different language." While they are absolutely correct that the makeup of air, water, and many other things affect the surfaces of metal, I believe when toning/color is expressed/explained in certain very acceptable ways to many of us, it only causes confusion for less informed collectors.
@lkeigwin said: "I laugh at posts about dipping copper to achieve something like original red. Sorry, it doesn't work like silver. I've played around with it for a long time and have never been able to achieve a convincing Mint red. I believe you can touch up copper, maybe even remove some problems. But you cannot restore a brown or RB copper piece to a believable RD."
Actually,,. BN probably not. RB to Mint Red that would fool a professional authenticator & grader...I've seen it done in the 1970's and have posted what I saw someplace on some thread either here or on Coin Talk. It took three different chemical baths (one was blue so I assume it was Copper Sulfate), electrical current, and just two tries in less than five minutes! His first try had a very nice red color but I told him it didn't fool me. He learned the process from a jeweler who was a friend of my family.
Edited to add: The solutions were in a closet on a shelf and the *** would not let me know the method due to my job at the time.
So rather than grade the toning on copper coins, the TPGs should get rid of the RD-RB-BN designation. It is the equivalent of grading silver coins White-GreyWhite-Grey. It's not done for silver coins, and is not needed for copper coins. That would even the playing field somewhat for attractively toned copper coins.
I agree with the point about the BN designation, in that it doesn't tell you much about the coin just by those letters. The coin can be dull brown or beautiful rainbow and still have the same BN.
However, I think the RD designation is useful as part of the grade, as it does convey useful information that can tell you something about the coin without having seen it. If it's full red, add the RD to the grade, otherwise no letters.
So rather than grade the toning on copper coins, the TPGs should get rid of the RD-RB-BN designation. It is the equivalent of grading silver coins White-GreyWhite-Grey. It's not done for silver coins, and is not needed for copper coins. That would even the playing field somewhat for attractively toned copper coins.
I agree with the point about the BN designation, in that it doesn't tell you much about the coin just by those letters. The coin can be dull brown or beautiful rainbow and still have the same BN.
However, I think the RD designation is useful as part of the grade, as it does convey useful information that can tell you something about the coin without having seen it. If it's full red, add the RD to the grade, otherwise no letters.
I can see that. I still prefer no designation, but your suggestion is better than what exists.
Some refer to overgraded slabs as Coffins. I like to think of them as Happy Coins.
Way too problematic. The biggest issue is most coins will naturally tone over time. It may take a lot of time, but it will happen. I’ve seen lots of older PCGS RD Lincoln cents that appear to be more RB at this point. The only thing that will stop the toning cycle is continuous dipping.
Dave
Always looking for original, better date VF20-VF35 Barber quarters and halves, and a quality beer.
@Dave99B said:
Way too problematic. The biggest issue is most coins will naturally tone over time. It may take a lot of time, but it will happen. I’ve seen lots of older PCGS RD Lincoln cents that appear to be more RB at this point. The only thing that will stop the toning cycle is continuous dipping.
Dave
And that continuous dipping will lead to other problems.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I guess i just don't get it. A light natural toning on a coin is ok and I may buy the coin in spite of the toning, but I see coins advertised all the time that look like a garish neon sign in a cheap bar. A lot of toning can be artificially induced by any semi-competent chemist and I even accidently toned a common date Wheat cent many years ago trying to dissolve tar off of it. I admit there are some coins that the toning actually enhances what would otherwise be a mediocre coin, but I don't base what I will pay on the toning.
Go read Chapter 10 of Larsons Book, Numismatic Forgery, it tells you how to do it.
Comments
I think if you try to establish a guideline for toned coin prices, it will be woefully inaccurate. Prices are all over the place. There are so many factors: different types of toning, different colors, certain dates with certain colors, etc.
However, I do agree that PCGS should be updating their price guides to more accurately reflect auction prices. I think they don't want to do this because in many cases (at least with Lincolns) the BN and RB prices will be multiples of RD prices.
Check out my iPhone app SlabReader!
I like this idea. It would definitely make me happy if PCGS did this for attractively toned coins.
Of course they would have to believe to the best of their professional ability that the color wasn't the result of someone's work with a chemistry set. (I know. Much easier said than done but they QC coins on a regular basis and I guess what I'm saying is that this should always be in a professional grader's mind.)
PCGS already does this as part of the slabbing process. If they think it's from a chemistry set, the coin gets a QC grade.
I know. What I'm primarily saying is I like the idea of adding "*" to a nicely toned slab label. I was just saying if they did this, they should CONTINUE to QC coins.
Sorry if my way of expressing this was confusing.
@deefree49 said: "I woke up this morning and checked this thread to find it was at the top of the list. That honestly surprised me. I also didn't have expectations about how the responses would be. (I haven't been a very active thread person so where the consensus would end up was something I had no idea about.)
I would at least like to see toned coins put in the RB category. That seems more in line with auction pricing and with the actual description of an attractively toned coin. If a coin still has natural luster and toning, I really feel RB would be a more accurate designation on the slab label. OK. I'm ready. Give me your worst!
OK, since you asked for it....READ THE THREAD! Again.
@Ronyahski said: "So rather than grade the toning on copper coins, the TPGs should get rid of the RD-RB-BN designation. It is the equivalent of grading silver coins White-GreyWhite-Grey. It's not done for silver coins, and is not needed for copper coins. That would even the playing field somewhat for attractively toned copper coins."
IMO, it is pretty obvious that you need to learn more about the history of coin grading in this country and especially how color became important with regard to copper coins. I might suggest you start with a book called Penny Whimsy. Then for a more thorough explanation the EAC has published a grading guide for copper with some nice color images.
@BryceM said: "Most people who collect and trade in copper deal with the current system without too much trouble."
Absolutely.
@Ronyahski Previously I posted: "IMO, it is pretty obvious that you need to learn more about the history of coin grading in this country and especially how color became important with regard to copper coins." Yikes! It seems I owe you an apology.
Please educate us about this statement from you about the period before any grading services were around: "There was a time when most people who collected and traded in copper had a system without RD/RB/BN. IN fact, they valued an original brown coin as much as an original red coin. They didn't have much trouble with their current system... they didn't have TPGs."
@BryceM said: "Maybe we're speaking a bit of a different language. From a metallurgical or chemical basis, almost all of what we call toning, whether it be on copper, silver, nickel, or gold is a result of chemical reactions between the metal(s) at the surface and the environment. Of course all RB and BN coins have been chemically toned."
IMO, some folks who are knowledgeable chemists (I'll use Mr. White as an example because he is not here to defend himself) make our discussions too technical due to their "different language." While they are absolutely correct that the makeup of air, water, and many other things affect the surfaces of metal, I believe when toning/color is expressed/explained in certain very acceptable ways to many of us, it only causes confusion for less informed collectors.
@lkeigwin said: "I laugh at posts about dipping copper to achieve something like original red. Sorry, it doesn't work like silver. I've played around with it for a long time and have never been able to achieve a convincing Mint red. I believe you can touch up copper, maybe even remove some problems. But you cannot restore a brown or RB copper piece to a believable RD."
Actually,,. BN probably not. RB to Mint Red that would fool a professional authenticator & grader...I've seen it done in the 1970's and have posted what I saw someplace on some thread either here or on Coin Talk. It took three different chemical baths (one was blue so I assume it was Copper Sulfate), electrical current, and just two tries in less than five minutes! His first try had a very nice red color but I told him it didn't fool me. He learned the process from a jeweler who was a friend of my family.
Edited to add: The solutions were in a closet on a shelf and the *** would not let me know the method due to my job at the time.
I agree with the point about the BN designation, in that it doesn't tell you much about the coin just by those letters. The coin can be dull brown or beautiful rainbow and still have the same BN.
However, I think the RD designation is useful as part of the grade, as it does convey useful information that can tell you something about the coin without having seen it. If it's full red, add the RD to the grade, otherwise no letters.
I can see that. I still prefer no designation, but your suggestion is better than what exists.
Perhaps, one thing that motivated slabs and grading was the hope that coins might be bought and sold sight unseen.
Bump
Wow. Just wanted to say The Comet is an amazing Morgan!
Anyone know if this is slabbed by our hosts? Is there a TrueView?
Thanks for posting @WoodenJefferson!
Way too problematic. The biggest issue is most coins will naturally tone over time. It may take a lot of time, but it will happen. I’ve seen lots of older PCGS RD Lincoln cents that appear to be more RB at this point. The only thing that will stop the toning cycle is continuous dipping.
Dave
Or Lucite
BROWN =
RB =
RED =
Doesn't this mean a sort of toning issue?
"Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!
--- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.And that continuous dipping will lead to other problems.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I guess i just don't get it. A light natural toning on a coin is ok and I may buy the coin in spite of the toning, but I see coins advertised all the time that look like a garish neon sign in a cheap bar. A lot of toning can be artificially induced by any semi-competent chemist and I even accidently toned a common date Wheat cent many years ago trying to dissolve tar off of it. I admit there are some coins that the toning actually enhances what would otherwise be a mediocre coin, but I don't base what I will pay on the toning.
Go read Chapter 10 of Larsons Book, Numismatic Forgery, it tells you how to do it.
JMO