Which Baseball players have played themselves out of the HOF?
Coinstartled
Posts: 10,135 ✭✭✭✭✭
Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens come to mind as two fellow that might well have entered the Hall had they retired 5 years earlier.
Question though is for the non cheaters ( at least generally accepted as such) that stuck around too long and had a few lousy final years that took out their ERA's or batting averages to the extent that they were excluded. Any names or thoughts?
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He'll get in regardless, but Ichiro comes to mind.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Dale Murphy comes to mind
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Dale Murphy? You may be right, but any HOF voter swayed by 44 games should not be a HOF voter. I can't think of anyone who I think answers the question, other than the cheaters. HOF voters love career milestones more than they love great baseball players; I think hanging around helps a player's chances at making the HOF.
Pujols and Cabrera come to mind. They'll get in, but their percentages are dropping year by year. Great first half careers, bad second half.
But with Pujols, who just had his first bad season ever last year, he also passed 600 HR. Next year, when he probably has another bad season, he'll pass 3,000 hits and possibly 2,000 RBI. I think the only percentage that HOF voters ever look at is batting average, and I took a quick look to see if a bona fide HOF contender dropped his career BA below .300 by hanging around and the only ones who did made the HOF anyway. I really don't think there is an answer to the OP.
Craig Biggio dropped off big time, but made the HOF anyway.
Pretty much everybody drops off big time; some make the HOF because they had already earned it (like, say, Harmon Killebrew) and some make the HOF because they hung around and reached an important milestone (like, say, Ichiro).
Wrong on Cabrera. He one one clunker year ( herniated disc) and it was last year. Prior to that the last 4 out of six years he won 4 batting titles, 2 MVP's a triple crown and had like 5 years leading the the league in OPS+. His worst year during that span was 150+. His last half of his career to date was better then his first half.
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Steve Garvey.
From age 20-31 his OPS+ was 124 and he was viewed very highly in the traditional measures, causing everyone around the end of that time frame to be talking about him as a guaranteed future Hall of Famer. From 1973-1981 he averaged 197 hits per 162 games, and 102 RBI. He was very popular.
From age 32-37 his OPS+ was 101, and he was finished at age 37.
In my opinion he didn't do enough in his prime anyway, but he had that reputation, and his traditianal stats were pointing that way. He simply fell off too much, and couldn't do it long enough.
Wrong on Cabrera.
Looks like the beginning of the end, especially now with his age.
There are several people like Garvey (Bill Madlock also comes to mind) who appeared to be on track for the HOF, but didn't make it. But they didn't "play themselves out of the HOF" as I read the question, because there was no point at which they were in the HOF if only they had retired rather than kept playing. They needed several more good years and just didn't have those extra good seasons in them.
None in my opinion. Even the juicers will eventually get in.
Pujols came to mind but his numbers are better than I thought in recent years. He just sort of fell off the radar I guess. Never hear about the guy anymore.
Rose probably as well.
So Mark - did you have anyone in mind when you started this thread?
I didn't have any specific names in mind, DA. Thinking about the cheaters was what triggered the thought about borderline HOF players that played a couple of seasons too long.
A couple of notes, batting average alone was not critical to Kaline's induction but it appears that his last couple of seasons dropped his career average to .297 from .300. I didn't do the math but it is close.
Forum favorite Jack Morris had a 3.70 +- era after his stints with Detroit and the Twins. Though he had a combined win/loss of 28/18 in three seasons with Tor/Cleveland. His ERA exceeded 5.00 for those 3 years.*
*not defending the induction-- just tossing out some numbers.
Kaline was a fabulous player in all areas of the game.
Morris, not so much.
Hope NOT!
Do you believe that the juicers belong?
Kaline- the boy wonder. From high school to the big leagues.
It can't be wrong. You stated this :
"Great first half careers, bad second half."
The second half of his career has been as good or better then his first half.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Someone who played himself INTO the Hall of Fame was Clemente.
He got off to a very slow start in his career and then got better and better.
Really struggled with the batting average early but still finished with a career .317 average.
Would have probably hit .330 if he hadn't struggled so much early on.
Just looked at Clementes numbers. He hit .282 the first five years of his career. Not bad but
certainly not destined for the Hall of Fame. Then the last thirteen years of his career, he hit
.329 and easily made the HOF.
No question about it unless we are going to categorize his 2017 season as the second half of his career.
His top 5 OPS+ totals for his career are all within the second half of his career, 2010-2013 & 2015.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Eli Manning.
Just kidding - I know it’s baseball.
David Wright?
No, I don't. Not ever. The problem with the juicers is that you don't know who juiced but did not get caught. Those that were caught or admitted to using should be banned.
I kind of think of Scott Rolen for this thread. I don't have his stats in front of me, but there were all kinds of predictions early in his career for HOF status. In his case I think it was injuries that limited his playing time later in his career. Another guy in the started-out-well-but-injuries-have-hurt-him category is Adam Wainwright.
I can't think of anybody who has played their way out of the Hall. Lots of guys who appeared to be on their way - Don Mattingly, to name one - but didn't get there. But they weren't ever "in" because they simply hadn't put up enough good years yet.
On another note: Cabrera and Pujols? Seriously? Cabrera is a 2-time MVP, Triple Crown winner, 4-time batting champion with a career .317 average and 462 homers. How the heck has he played himself out of the Hall? And Pujols? 600 homers and a .305 average and he's not getting in? Really? The guy hit 40 homers two years ago. Yeah, he's dropped off but c'mon.
A list of known users and their consequences...perhaps not all HOFer potential, but the list is long.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_players_suspended_for_performance-enhancing_drugs
Drugs may have ruined Gooden and Strawberry's chance. Perhaps Dave Parker too.
Cobra
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED
One that nobody has mentioned so far and came into my mind...Juan Gonzalez. His fall off was monstrous beginning with the 2000 season in Detroit. He had one really good season after age 30, with Cleveland in 2001 at age 31 and he was done by age 35. His numbers between 1989-1999 were HOF caliber.
Gonzalez illustrates the value of playing in a hitters park on a good team as well as anyone but Jim Rice. He won two MVPs and wasn't close to deserving either one, he couldn't play defense, he couldn't run the bases, and for the period 1989-1999 he had the same OPS+ as Gene Tenace. Gene Tenace was a better baseball player than Juan Gonzalez. Don't get me wrong, I'd smile for at least a week if Gene Tenace made the HOF, but he surely does not deserve to.
When Gonzales played in Detroit the left field wall was in Canada. They eventually moved it in
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Mark, I remember that. Also remember discussions about Detroit not being an advantageous place for him to play for that specific reason. I'm not sure why he only played the one season with Detroit and then ended up with Cleveland where he had a decent 2001 campaign. It was all downhill really fast after that season though and he was done at age 35.
I seem to remember Gonzales having a serious back injury. Anyone remember that? I also seem to remember some steroid accusations.
Looks like he should be in if the steroids issue was false. I remember him destroying the Twins on a regular basis.
You're right. A player who only does one thing well, draw walks, does not deserve to be in the HOF.
Hoping 2018 cures your Tenacitis affliction, you've suffered with it for way too long.
Good luck!
But, of course, I don't have any such affliction since I said Tenace doesn't belong in the HOF. It's the people who think Juan Gonzalez, or Jim Rice, etc. belong in the HOF who need your hope. As for people who think Jack Morris, who didn't even do one thing well, belongs in the HOF, they are beyond hope and need only our pity.