1844 Province of Canada Bank of Montreal Halfpenny Token Grading Question?

BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 26,964 ✭✭✭✭
edited December 7, 2017 2:09PM in World & Ancient Coins Forum

ICCS ever severely screw up...

As how is this a XF45 in their opinion?

It looks better then what many times ends up in Mint State USA plastic.

Not my photos, but you can click on them to Super Size.

Thanks in advance as curiosity got the best of me and I did buy it however will not be here for a while.

To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!

Comments

  • amwldcoinamwldcoin Posts: 4,127 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Maybe an EAC member influenced them!

  • BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 26,964 ✭✭✭✭

    @amwldcoin said:
    Maybe an EAC member influenced them!

    Ha I was thinking the same when I first saw it as this is like EAC grading :smiley:

    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
  • YQQYQQ Posts: 1,463 ✭✭✭

    Please remember that ICCS grades tokens a bit different than circulation coins.
    my very first thought was XF 40 max.

    Today is the first day of the rest of my life
  • BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 26,964 ✭✭✭✭

    @YQQ said:
    Please remember that ICCS grades tokens a bit different than circulation coins.
    my very first thought was XF 40 max.

    At XF40 beyond wear to all the high points due to the intricate design details these retain a lot of build up dirt from circulation and aren't very attractive.

    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
  • sylsyl Posts: 384 ✭✭✭

    I agree with YQQ in that it is in the XF-40 range. The leaves on the trees are heavily worn and the beaver has deep wear spots on the front and hind quarter. ICCS grades many of these and the heavy-detailed design makes it easy to show wear... and wear is the ONLY thing that ICCS grades by since luster, surface and appeal mean almost nothing.

  • BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 26,964 ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 8, 2017 1:40PM

    It's not only the trees on the obverse...

    As at XF the A frame portico would have heavy wear along with horizontal lower dentil details completely gone.

    The gutter at the roof line on the main building is no longer sharp.

    The left tree is actually very well defined.

    On the reverse at XF the shoulder and hip is gone and all that's left is a smooth beaver.

    The scroll banner has wear along with all the high points of the central floral accents within the design.

    I'll set it free once here and will post my own photos as it's already at US Customs.

    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
  • sylsyl Posts: 384 ✭✭✭

    Many of these were weakly struck so the trees and the ledges sometimes aren't full. The beaver quarters show definite signs of wear. I thought that your initial post was that you didn't think that it was high enough. They are neat coins/tokens and there's lots of varieties of these as well. They are fairly common, especially in VF and below grades, and they saw lots and lots of use before Canada became a true country in 1867, because everything they had before then for commerce were European and US coinage. Bank and merchant tokens were heavily used from the early 1800's through to the 1850's

  • 1960NYGiants1960NYGiants Posts: 2,889 ✭✭✭

    I think you will be pleased with the token. I don't see and detracting marks from circ that many end up with. If there is any lustre, PCGS may give it an AU53-55 grade.

    Gene

    Life member #369 of the Royal Canadian Numismatic Association
    Member of Canadian Association of Token Collectors

    Collector of:
    Canadian coins and pre-confederation tokens
    Darkside proof/mint sets dated 1960
    My Ebay
  • To answer your question about ICCS severely screwing up: Yes, they do. I would argue they are terribly unreliable.

    Cataloger and enjoyer of all things numismatic
  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 18,430 ✭✭✭✭

    I like it. Looking forward to your images.

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

  • I think this is clearly 40-45. I wouldn't say they "screwed up". If this received an MS holder by PCGS or NGC, that would be a screw up. I doubt it would though.

  • BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 26,964 ✭✭✭✭

    Thanks everyone as it looks like it's being delivered today.

    So I'll get some photos up later :)

    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 3,695 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 13, 2017 8:36PM

    Coins are graded differently outside the US. If this coin is conserved so the surface is no longer dull and lifeless I agree that a US TPGS will probably grade it AU something.

  • I agree with syl that there's some rub on the beaver quarters, but it's a bit extreme to call that a smooth beaver

    I'm here every night, folks

  • BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 26,964 ✭✭✭✭

    I'm very happy with it for a so called EF-45 :)

    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
  • 1960NYGiants1960NYGiants Posts: 2,889 ✭✭✭

    AU55 nice token!

    Gene

    Life member #369 of the Royal Canadian Numismatic Association
    Member of Canadian Association of Token Collectors

    Collector of:
    Canadian coins and pre-confederation tokens
    Darkside proof/mint sets dated 1960
    My Ebay
  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 18,430 ✭✭✭✭

    I see this in the AU spectrum. Based on the overall appearance of the coin and the pattern of wear, EF seems to be more of a reflection of a weak beaver and not actual wear from circulation. And that is a distinction worth making

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

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