Willie Stargell or Willie McCovey?
Darin
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in Sports Talk
Stargell has always been one of my top 3 favorite players.
Didn't realize how similar his stats are to McCoveys.
Their OPS and OPS+ are exactly the same, .889 and 147.
Stargell had 4190 total bases, McCovey 4219.
Stargell had 2232 hits, McCovey 2211.
RBI- 1540 to 1555.
I would say Stargell is the more popular as he had a more outgoing personality.
It would be hard to find two more players with closer lifetime stats than these two.
I would pick Stargell as the better player, but I am biased on this one.LOL.
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Stargell certainly had the better quotes.
""They give you a round bat and they throw you a round ball and they tell you to hit it square."""
Stargell.
McCovey sat a lot vs lefties and 'saved' a lot of his rate stats(especially early in his career and the back half).
He also dodged facing Koufax often.
That is a lot of 0 for 4's that should be 'added' to his value.
Upon further review, Stargell was pretty similar with sitting vs lefties...sooo nevermind.
Stargell
He was known for hitting balls out of stadiums and he won the trifecta in 79...season, championship, and world series MVP.
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED
We can’t make an official statement on this until Dallas Chimes in
Dallas will find a way to say Richie Hebner was better then both of them . Count on it
I would give the ever so slight edge to McCovey
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Well Dallas does have McCovey as the 24th greatest HOF'er and Stargell #40 so
I think I know what he would say.
Stargell easily could have won MVP in 1971 and 1973. He finished second both
those years to a guy who had 230 hits. Rose in 71 and Joe Torre(his only great year) in 73.
Stargells' OPS both those years was over 1.000. And in 1972 Stargell was third in MVP voting.
Three monster years in a row.
I think when they gave Stargell co MVP in 1979 it was more like a lifetime achievement award.
He should have won a few in his prime years but like Ted Williams got robbed of some MVPs.
Better hitter or better player? Stargell hit more doubles and had a little higher SLG%, McCovey hit home runs more frequently and walked more.
Stargell played outfield most of his career and McCovey 1st base. Stargell gets the nod here but does anyone really care about these guys' fielding contributions?
I vote for Stargell but certainly not by much. Slight edge in both runs scored and driven in per 162 games, plus 24 more total bases per 162. OBP for sluggers not as important (to me) as early in the order guys.
Really, really close as hitters. McCovey did have Mays batting along side him, that would help, although Clemente was no slouch either.
Stargell played half of his career at Forbes field. Not the easiest park to hit home runs.
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED
I favor Stargell. FWIW Stargell also hit the longest HR OUT of Dodger Stadium in 1963. But it's close between the 2. As we all know that other Willie (Mays) was no slouch either.
Add Dave Parker to the we are family Stargell lineup. He was no slouch either.
This is kinda like which side of the twiz tastes better....the left or right.
I give the edge slightly to McCovey as Stargell doesn't have a body of water named after him.
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
As Darin noted, you already know where I stand. I'll note, though, that I think they're very close. I have McCovey over Stargell by a decent amount in the HOF ranking because McCovey's peak was clearly better than Stargell's. If you ignore peak - and value each year of their careers equally - then McCovey still wins, but not by as much.
Two reasons - (1) McCovey was a better clutch hitter, and (2) while their OPS+ is the same, OPS+ weights OBP and SLG equally, and OBP is a little more important than SLG.
Stargell - 2 rings
McCovey - 0
Speaking of Clutch, the biggest reason why Stargell won the MVP in 79, was because of all the game winning home runs he hit through out that season.
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED
Fair enough; any argument that says Ron Fairly was better than Willie Mays is bulletproof.
And I'm not going to go through the game logs for 1979, but I'll note that Stargell had 178 runners in scoring position to drive in that year and he drove in 42 of them - about 24%. He hit .212 in racking up that very unimpressive total. Among many others who did better, there's Richie Hebner; he hit .284 while driving in 30% of the runners in scoring position ahead of him. I like Stargell, and he was a great player, but "clutch" he was not, and he takes a hit for it.
Yep. People remember what they want to remember.
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
If you watched the games during the 79 season as I did, you would know that Willie is the player that kept their season alive in the pennant race. He hit a lot of game winning homers for just being a part time player that year. But what people remember the most in any sport is what you do in post season. How many players have won the trifecta? Wille is the only player that I know of. He was the only pirates player that year to hit a home run in the World Series. And he did it three times, including the game winning home run in game Seven. Stargell will always be known as a hero. mccovey..nada.
Stargell also hit more home runs in the 70's than any other player.
Stargell was a great leader. People earned their stargell stars on the hats. If you had to choose which player you would take on your team, it would be stargell any day of the week.
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED
I did watch, and I was rooting for Pittsburgh primarily because I was a big fan of Stargell. He was a great player and had a great career. But in 1979 he was out for 36 games, and pretty much immobile at first base. He was, charitably, the fourth most valuable member of his own team. You mention his great finish, but his best month was May, followed by July, followed by April. His finish only seemed great because he had crashed in August. His September was a big step up, but still worse than his season averages.
Stargell won the MVP in 1979 because of those silly stars, and the media's fixation on them. Or maybe it was karma repaying him for the MVP he deserved in 1973. He definitely did not win it because he deserved it.
He did deserve the World Series MVP in 1979, which appears to be what you are mostly arguing, so we agree on that.
Thats your opinion. Lots of players don't deserve awards. Such is life. Stargell didn't deserve the MVP than who?
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED
Keith Hernandez, who was the CO-MVP anyway? Other than hitting fewer homers, he soundly out-performed Stargell in pretty much every category.
It would be hard for me to vote for someone who hit only 11 homers. He did have a good year though and deserving of a co-mvp.
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED
I don't understand why home runs are the be all and end all. If Keith can have more RBI and runs scored than Stargell with 11 homers, why does it matter?
Good point, but finishing in 3rd place behind willie's team probably didn't help.
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED
My ballot in 1979 would have been:
1. Dave Winfield
2. Mike Schmidt
3. Dave Parker
4. Keith Hernandez
5. Davey Lopes
6. Gary Carter
7. Pete Rose
8. Garry Templeton
9. Ron Cey
10. Gene Tenace
11. Jose Cruz
12. Steve Garvey
13. Phil Garner
14. Gary Matthews
15. J.R. Richard
16. Dave Concepcion
17. Phil Niekro
18. Darrell Evans
19. Andre Dawson
20. George Foster
Now, I did this quickly and I don't want to defend why Phil Garner ranks above Gary Matthews, etc. My point is just that all of these players, and maybe a dozen more, were more valuable to their teams than Stargell was to the Pirates in 1979.
Wow
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED
No other player in history had ever won the award, with as few first place votes as received by Hernandez. Stargell collected ten first place votes to only four for hernandez.
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED
I think you have it backwards, Keith was the one with ten first place votes.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/awards_1979.shtml
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED
I never realized they were co MVP's
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I think that's incorrect. I'll try to find definitive proof.
Here are two different articles which both refer to Keith getting 10 and Willie getting four:
https://www.foxsports.com/mlb/story/mlb-history-two-players-share-1979-national-league-mvp-award-111316
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2119037-in-1979-one-vote-capped-the-careers-of-keith-hernandez-and-willie-stargell
...and a third article...
https://baseballhall.org/discover/inside-pitch/stargell-wins-1979-mvp
And this one from guru writer Bill Deane had in Stargell 10 and Hernandez 4
Who Was Really the 1979 NL MVP?
By Bill Deane
Only once in the history of the Most Valuable Player Award has there been a tie for the honor. In 1979, the Pirates' Willie "Pops" Stargell and the Cardinals' Keith Hernandez wound up with 216 points apiece in the Baseball Writers' Association of America voting, so each was awarded a plaque.
For the third-place Cards, Hernandez led the National League in runs (116), doubles (48), and batting average (.344), ran a close second in hits and on-base percentage, and won his second Gold Glove Award at first base. Stargell, who had finished second in controversial balloting in both 1971 and 1973, was the clean-up hitter (32 homers) and inspirational leader of the "We Are Family," world champion Bucs. Hernandez was listed by all 24 voters, while Stargell was omitted entirely from four ballots; however, Pops got ten first-place votes as compared to just four for Hernandez. When it all shook out, they came out even.
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
My baseball reference link is correct. I even remember at the time the award was givin they had mentioned that Hernandez only had four first place votes.
Your links are incorrect.
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED
That is amazing to think that if only one of those four writers had given stargell a tenth place vote, he would've won it outright. Good find mark.
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED
This illustrates one of the most frustrating things about the Internet. So many articles use other articles as sources it's hard to tell what is correct.
Fourth article saying Hernandez got 10...
https://calltothepen.com/2016/11/13/mlb-history-two-players-share-1979-national-league-mvp-award/
This is true. Not just the internet. ESPN lies about stats and facts on a daily basis.
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED
Only three distinct articles so far, two of mine are actually the same article...
I'm going to conclude you're right since the references I've found supporting your version of events contain much more detail. Also, it makes sense that Stargell must have gotten more 1st place votes to balance Hernandez being chosen on more ballots.
Pretty pathetic that so many supposed journalists just perpetuate errors.
It goes further but I didn't want to confuse things. They were able to split votes as well. One voter split his 4th place vote on the ballot between Phil and Joe Niekro. Weird.
While Willie was left off of four ballots entirely Hernandez was named on every single ballot. That's such an anomaly that they ended up tied. Willie was a sentimental pick to be sure.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
The fact that Stargell played many of his prime years in Forbes Field can't be emphasized enough. It took a real blast to hit a home run to deep right center field (436 ft). It's scary to think how many homers Stargell would have hit in his career if he played is entire career in Three Rivers Stadium. He had the most homers in the 70s which coincided with the move to TRS which was not a coincidence.
Of ALL the possible offensive measures, both traditional items such as hit totals, doubles, etc.., percentages such as OB% etc.., and the all comprehensive measurements, Stargell finishes in the top ten in the league in the folloiwng:
Home Runs he finished 5th
SLG% he finished 8th
AB per HR he finished 3rd
Win Probability Added he finished 8th.
So out of the 42 possible offensive measurements that can be considered positive, he finished in the top ten in only THREE of them. I would go out on a limb and say that is probably the worst representation of the offensive leaderboards in the history of all the non pitcher MVP's.
It is surprising that he did finish that high in Win Probability Added, so he probably was getting his share of game affecting hits, compared to that of his overall performance. However, since his WPA was 4.2 and Dave Winfield's was 7.2, it would seem Winfield was getting many more. Hernandez was 5.5. However, Stargell getting a 4.2 despite missing as many games as he did, kind of makes his a little more impressive than the 4.2 he had.
His Late/close stats were in 102 at bats, 10HR, .314 AVG/.355OB%/.647 SLG%...which does give some credence to the memories being express with his late inning hits.....just as the Win Probability Added is also showing.
Dave Parker was the only teammate with a higher WPA than Parker, coming in with a 5.3. George Foster was the only Cincinnati Red with a higher WPA than Stargell with a 4.3(the Reds being the other division winner). Looking at this WPA info, I can see some perceptions being valid in regard to Stargell that year, when you couple it with the 'tradition' of giving MVP's to the division winners...especially adding the sage old leader factor...which lead to some of these feelings among fans and the writers.
I too would give it to Winfield, just want to clear that up. He is simply way to high in all the key measurements, and that whole 'value' notion writers have given to the MVP is simply hogwash as Dallas has pointed out. But Stargell was a neat story that year, as were the Pirates...so I guess it takes the sting off a little.
skin - you didn't mention Schmidt. I point that out for two reasons: (1) I think he was the most credible challenger to Winfield for MVP, and (2) to remind you that you left out fielding. With WPA, you've already got a fair list of people who were more valuable at the plate than Stargell, but the list grows much longer if you recognize that Stargell was a statue at first base, while Schmidt, Hernandez, Winfield and others were winning Gold Gloves by moving more than three feet to make plays.
I know Stargell cut quite the romantic figure in1979, and maybe that takes a little sting off, but his MVP still stings quite a bit.
Sting? Nah, he did more than prove he was the most valuable player to his team during the post season. He batted something like 455 against the reds in the championship series. He also won other awards that year like the sporting news player of the year.
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED
In Stargell's eight full years at Forbes he hit 70 home runs. In those years he his 93 on the road. > @dallasactuary said:
That is true. I was just looking at offense as Stargell provided almost all of his value from offense....and there were several better offensive players in the league.....and wasn't really looking at all the candidates, just the top offensive guy in the league and the top offensive guys on the division winners.
Stargell was a neat story though. I enjoyed that team very much.
Stargell had an amazing career too....I don't want to confuse that fact.