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    earlycoinsearlycoins Posts: 282 ✭✭✭

    ?

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    5 USD 1795 NGC 64 CAC

    MS63 estimated grade

    "Colonel" E.H.R. Green Collection - Partnership of Eric P. Newman & B.G. Johnson (St. Louis Stamp and Coin Co.) - Eric P. Newman, who paid $225.00 - Eric P. Newman Numismatic Education Society - Heritage 11/2017:15102 (as NGC MS64 CAC 2064130-017), $336,000

    --> 336.000 USD is PCGS 64 money.

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    AblinkyAblinky Posts: 625 ✭✭✭
    edited November 3, 2017 7:41AM

    Nothing new, Coinfacts to my knowledge has always listed NGC coins in the census with an estimated grade 1 less than the NGC grade. Why this is the case I don't know, but at least it's a consistent trend.

    Andrew Blinkiewicz-Heritage

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    EXOJUNKIEEXOJUNKIE Posts: 1,609 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Why would they estimate it a point lower even when it is CAC'ed (as in the case of the 5 USD 1795 noted above)? Doesn't this violate some kind of unwritten numismatic law...?

    I'm addicted to exonumia ... it is numismatic crack!

    ANA LM

    USAF Retired — 34 years of active military service! 🇺🇸
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    TPRCTPRC Posts: 3,739 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Ablinky said:
    Nothing new, Coinfacts to my knowledge has always listed NGC coins in the census with an estimated grade 1 less than the NGC grade. Why this is the case I don't know, but at least it's a consistent trend.

    Interesting and something I didn't know. Somehow I thought that these were reviewed and compared and ranked--like the early coppers guys do. Who actually does that is beyond me but assume that each coin can be reviewed, a true comparative CC should not be that difficult.

    Tom

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    Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 3, 2017 9:37AM

    Business decision? They don't agree with the grade? Because they can? :)

    Does it matter? It has no effect on me. B)

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    jdimmickjdimmick Posts: 9,600 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 3, 2017 9:44AM

    Actually , NGC is grading as tight as pcgs recently, in fact in some cases tighter. Market perception just doesn't realize it.

    I am working on an early type deal with a local family, they are sending coins to NGC because they have an account , The dealers and folks I am selling them too are getting them crossed over at same grade, one or two have graded higher. None of of over 2 dozen have grade lower at pcgs

    Apparently some of the folks bidding on newman s NGC coins felt the same way because prices went thru the ceiling on a few, the 1793 chain for example, ,the 1795 dollar I chased as far as I could, went strong for a ngc 58 cac, somebody will get this in a pcgs ms holder, I guarantee.

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    Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 3, 2017 10:33AM

    @Broadstruck said: "Because the CAC crew are all ex NGC graders ;)"

    Great point. You B) seem to know a lot about CAC. Care to share what you know? ;)

    How many folks are full-time graders at CAC? Who are they?

    How many folks are part-time graders at CAC? Who are they?

    Thanks in advance! :)

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    @jdimmick said:
    Actually , NGC is grading as tight as pcgs recently, in fact in some cases tighter. Market perception just doesn't realize it.

    I am working on an early type deal with a local family, they are sending coins to NGC because they have an account , The dealers and folks I am selling them too are getting them crossed over at same grade, one or two have graded higher. None of of over 2 dozen have grade lower at pcgs

    Apparently some of the folks bidding on newman s NGC coins felt the same way because prices went thru the ceiling on a few, the 1793 chain for example, ,the 1795 dollar I chased as far as I could, went strong for a ngc 58 cac, somebody will get this in a pcgs ms holder, I guarantee.

    Anything for me in your type deal ?

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    @Ablinky said:
    Nothing new, Coinfacts to my knowledge has always listed NGC coins in the census with an estimated grade 1 less than the NGC grade. Why this is the case I don't know, but at least it's a consistent trend.

    Looked to me like they reviewed them and based on this they put the estimated grade.

    Or why did they estimate the NGC 55 1797 Half with PCGS 45 otherwise ?

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    @Insider2 said:
    Business decision? They don't agree with the grade? Because they can? :)

    Does it matter? It has no effect on me. B)

    It matters because it seems these NGC coins are really correctly graded and beautiful, also regarding prices realized and how they look. And PCGS would still not cross them. Especially when you collect PCGS set registry its relevant.

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    Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thanks, those are very good points. Some folks (me) tend to get locked into a little world lacking reality.

    Anyone know where this member (Broadstruck Posts: 26,647 ✭✭✭✭) went? He seemed to be a fountain of information on CAC.

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    logger7logger7 Posts: 8,081 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 3, 2017 5:22PM

    I agree that the PCGS holders are more aesthetic as well as all the high tech options like secure plus and true view. On the grading standards as many of the top pros have commented, our sponsor is tougher in some areas. Probably early type is different? And it is true that the owner of cac as well as some of the graders were at NGC. Not so much tougher as "style" of grading.

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    RayboRaybo Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭✭✭

    So it's all about politics and nepotism as far as CAC and NGC is concerned?
    Shill bidding is one thing but now I have to worry about shill grading? I will still purchase the coin first no matter what holder it's in.

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    specialistspecialist Posts: 956 ✭✭✭✭✭

    without exception, ANY NON CAC coin in the Newman sale was NOT of full quality. I can't speak for PCGS but they will probably make price estimates assuming the CAC coins will cross. the 1797 50C had its problems and was not really AU. These days in sales like this, the coins do sell for what they really are.

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    keetskeets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 4, 2017 3:04AM

    with an estimated grade 1 less than the NGC grade. Why this is the case I don't know, but at least it's a consistent trend.

    this is a "perception" that NGC has cultivated during the past 25-30 years, so if it has changed as some members contend it is hardly the fault of collectors/dealers for not noticing.

    there was a time, perhaps back around 2003-05, when the PCGS turn-around times were in excess of 40+ days. NGC was a little more than half of that. most submitters knew that NGC was +1 and that the price for an MS65 NGC would be the same as an MS64 PCGS --- they opted for NGC and the ability to flip their product quicker. it was common knowledge at the time and continued until PCGS was able to lower their turn-around times.

    a mindset like that is difficult to forget and change, it persists for a reason. it also doesn't help that NGC has partnered with Heritage, the world's largest coin dealer. if what Broadstruck alleges is true(and I have no reason to doubt him) it is sad to hear. working in a small coin shop I have the benefit of seeing quite a bit of material in both PCGS/NGC holders. both companies grade a lot of undesirable coins, but that is more the fault of the submitter than the TPG. my experience tends to show that NGC leads in that area.

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    Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 4, 2017 7:20AM

    @Raybo said: "So it's all about politics and nepotism as far as CAC and NGC is concerned? Shill bidding is one thing but now I have to worry about shill grading? I will still purchase the coin first no matter what holder it's in."

    I very rarely bid in auctions so what do I know? Only this: Rare and very desirable coins with famous owners are often OVER GRADED by one of the top two TPGS and suspect it may be the case for the other. :(

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    Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Insider2 said: "Thanks, those are very good points. Some folks (me) tend to get locked into a little world lacking reality. Anyone know where this member (Broadstruck Posts: 26,647 ✭✭✭✭) went? He seemed to be a fountain of information on CAC."

    @keets IMO, "Fly-by" disagreements are pathetic! I chose a nice word. :) Care to tell me what you disagreed with in my post. Thanks.

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    keetskeets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 4, 2017 11:17AM

    @keets IMO, "Fly-by" disagreements are pathetic! I chose a nice word. :) Care to tell me what you disagreed with in my post. Thanks.

    Insider, let me be clear and brief.......................................what I posted had nothing to do with you.

    I am, though, about done with your petty squabbles and call-outs to me and with everyone else. they are annoying. if the things I post bother you, please PM to discuss. if you persist I'll just start to flag you and let the moderators figure things out.

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    Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 4, 2017 11:05AM

    I posted my post that you disagreed with:

    "Thanks, those are very good points. Some folks (me) tend to get locked into a little world lacking reality.

    Anyone know where this member (Broadstruck Posts: 26,647 ✭✭✭✭) went? He seemed to be a fountain of information on CAC."

    1Disagree from @keets Please take the log out of your eye.

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    lkeigwinlkeigwin Posts: 16,887 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It has been said many times here, and even by PCGS, that if you want the best shake it is better to crack and submit raw than cross.

    The reasons are straightforward. PCGS must assess the cross-candidate while viewing through plastic and without seeing at least some parts of the coin obscured by the gasket and/or prongs. So their practice is to be conservative lest they discover a surprise that could cost them.

    Of course some coins shouldn't be cracked and submitted raw. Colorful toning might risk a bodybag, e.g. Or the provenance on the cert shouldn't be lost. If I choose to cross for reasons like these I typically expect to have the coin regraded if it didn't achieve the grade I thought it deserved.
    Lance.

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    Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 4, 2017 12:28PM

    @keets

    I posted an opinion at 3;16 PM today. You pushed the "disagree" button. Since you responded that it has nothing to do with me, please remove the "disagree" from that post. I've been trolled enough around here (1.6+K). If you don't know how to do it, please ask and I'll help you. Thanks o:)

    PS I tried to flag this post also but I cannot do it myself. However, a member can change the Disagrees, Agrees, Likes, and LOL they made to another member's post in error. We all make them you know. :wink:

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    bronco2078bronco2078 Posts: 9,964 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Insider2 said:
    @keets

    I posted an opinion at 3;16 PM today. You pushed the "disagree" button. Since you responded that it has nothing to do with me, please remove the "disagree" from that post. I've been trolled enough around here (1.6+K). If you don't know how to do it, please ask and I'll help you. Thanks o:)

    PS I tried to flag this post also but I cannot do it myself. However, a member can change the Disagrees, Agrees, Likes, and LOL they made to another member's post in error. We all make them you know. :wink:

    maybe you are being flagged for posting 87 times when you could collect all your thoughts together in one post? It seems like you are replying to yourself half the time . I mean you literally quote your own earlier post then reply to it. :D

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    specialistspecialist Posts: 956 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I predict the majority of NGC CAC pieces will be in PCGS holders by the end of the Baltimore Show. Would also bet few if any non CAC pieces cross. So PCGS can value them as is based on the prices realized

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    Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thanks for your suggestions. When I started o CU I made separate comments - now I try to group them.

    IMO, I'm being flagged because a member "disagreed" (by mistake) with a post I made in this thread at 3:16 PM and he is not happy with the way I responded or for being called-out!

    Obviously, the reason I quoted myself (besides the fact that I like to see myself in print B) ) is to point out that there was nothing in that post that could deserve a "disagree." The member who disagreed in error posted that fact. Nevertheless, the last time I checked it is still in my post. How sad :( for me :'(

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