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Question about the Empire Coin Company's 1776 Continental Dollar Restrikes, and one of Bashlow's.

CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,554 ✭✭✭✭✭

Recently saw one of the Empire Coin Restrikes with what looked like some very faint reeding along the right side of the edge from roughly 12 o'clock to 6 o'clock. Checked the three pieces I own and none of them had the same effect, though they did show some very faint raised striations as might be caused by collar die erosion.

At your leisure, could you please check your Empire restrikes to see if your's show any signs of erosion to the collar die? Not a big deal, just curious.

On a related subject, while digging those out I came across a Bashlow copper piece I have that has a dark, antiqued finish. Looks like the piece was buffed down a bit (loss of detail on the high points) and then smeared with a darkening agent, some of which remains puddles up in and around the lettering. Has anybody else seen one of these?

Thanks,

TD

Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.

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    CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,554 ✭✭✭✭✭

    And another question: One of the three Empire pieces I have (absolutely matches the others as far as die characteristics and composition) came to me with a small printed flyer purporting to be from "HOWARD SHARE 7314 21 AVENUE BROOKLYN 4, N. Y." Says that the piece is an Empire Restrike, which previously sold for $12.50, but that "Due to a fortunate purchase, we can now sell you this brilliant proof for only $3.50!" On the back of the flyer is a penciled date "9-29-63."

    Was "SHARE" a pseudonym of Bashlow's? Just asked Dave Bowers and the name does not ring any bells to him, nor does he remember selling any remainders to Bashlow at a discount. He did say that he did do business with Bashlow around this time, and of course he did end up selling the dies to Bashlow.

    The usual Bashlow restrikes were made from dies copied from the dies he bought from Empire. They have less detail on the "table" the sundial rests on, and the large die scratch below the C of CONTINENTAL (looking at it upright) has been cleared away, among other touchups.

    Did Bashlow make a production run of "Empire strikes" that he sold under an assumed name to hide the fact that he did this, or did whatever coiner that made Empire's strikes (Dave thinks it was Pinches in London, but is not sure at this late date) make an overrun for their own account?

    TD

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
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    BillDugan1959BillDugan1959 Posts: 3,821 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Ah, John Pinches (Medallists) Limited, a very nice soignee touch back in the old days!

    http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/search_the_collection_database/term_details.aspx?bioId=62473

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    291fifth291fifth Posts: 23,942 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I recall that Bashlow made many trial pieces of the things he struck. Your piece with the dark, antiqued finish may be one of them.

    All glory is fleeting.
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    CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,554 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @291fifth said:
    I recall that Bashlow made many trial pieces of the things he struck. Your piece with the dark, antiqued finish may be one of them.

    Looks like perhaps he was trying to duplicate the bronzed finish of DIckeson's 1876 medals. Can't say for sure.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
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    jonathanbjonathanb Posts: 3,425 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CaptHenway said:
    The usual Bashlow restrikes were made from dies copied from the dies he bought from Empire. They have less detail on the "table" the sundial rests on, and the large die scratch below the C of CONTINENTAL (looking at it upright) has been cleared away, among other touchups.

    Or more simply: Empire strikes were produced exclusively in white metal. Bashlow strikes were produced in silver, bronze, and goldine but not produced in white metal.

    FWIW, DM Rare Coins recently published a very good writeup on these varieties

    A while ago I bought a heavily worn Empire striking because it amused me. Someone must have carried it as a pocket piece for quite some time:


    As for the Captain's original question... I checked a couple of raw Empire strikes I have on hand and I don't see anything that obviously looks like reeding, but I'm not exactly sure what I should be looking for. If it's faint enough, I might simply be missing it.

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    CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,554 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jonathanb said:

    @CaptHenway said:
    The usual Bashlow restrikes were made from dies copied from the dies he bought from Empire. They have less detail on the "table" the sundial rests on, and the large die scratch below the C of CONTINENTAL (looking at it upright) has been cleared away, among other touchups.

    Or more simply: Empire strikes were produced exclusively in white metal. Bashlow strikes were produced in silver, bronze, and goldine but not produced in white metal.

    FWIW, DM Rare Coins recently published a very good writeup on these varieties

    A while ago I bought a heavily worn Empire striking because it amused me. Someone must have carried it as a pocket piece for quite some time:


    As for the Captain's original question... I checked a couple of raw Empire strikes I have on hand and I don't see anything that obviously looks like reeding, but I'm not exactly sure what I should be looking for. If it's faint enough, I might simply be missing it.

    Very interesting article. Thank you for the link.
    TD

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
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    RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Are the restrikes called "the Empire Strikes Back" variety?

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,888 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 15, 2017 2:05PM

    I have a few of these but need to verify which ones I have.

    Nice article by DMRC from @jonathanb which will be useful here.

    So we have:

    • Originals - origin unknown
    • Dickeson dies Centennial tribute pieces - Dr. Montroville Wilson Dickeson
    • Dickeson die mules (obv) but possibly no restrikes - Thomas Lindsay Elder
    • Dickeson dies (obv & rev) Quentin David Bowers’ Empire Coin Company, John Jay Ford Jr.
    • Dickeson dies (obv& rev) Robert Bashlow
    • Dickeson dies - Smithsonian Institute (current owner)
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    CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,554 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Bashlow said he gave them to the Smithsonian, but he may have kept copy hubs and or dies. Also, he was not the most reliable of witnesses, even to things that he himself did (or did not).

    Anybody want to volunteer to ask the Smithsonian if they have the dies? And how many sets? And if pictures are available?

    TD

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
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    MeltdownMeltdown Posts: 8,667 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Here's my example. I will take it out an look close when I get home.
    photo 1776 cont2.jpg
    photo 1776 cont1.jpg

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    CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,554 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Cool! You even have the original Empire Envelope!

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
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    CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,554 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jonathanb said:

    @CaptHenway said:
    The usual Bashlow restrikes were made from dies copied from the dies he bought from Empire. They have less detail on the "table" the sundial rests on, and the large die scratch below the C of CONTINENTAL (looking at it upright) has been cleared away, among other touchups.

    Or more simply: Empire strikes were produced exclusively in white metal. Bashlow strikes were produced in silver, bronze, and goldine but not produced in white metal.

    FWIW, DM Rare Coins recently published a very good writeup on these varieties

    A while ago I bought a heavily worn Empire striking because it amused me. Someone must have carried it as a pocket piece for quite some time:


    As for the Captain's original question... I checked a couple of raw Empire strikes I have on hand and I don't see anything that obviously looks like reeding, but I'm not exactly sure what I should be looking for. If it's faint enough, I might simply be missing it.

    If I were a younger man I would start carrying one of mine with my pocket change.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
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    sparky64sparky64 Posts: 7,026 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Interesting thread plus it's a good excuse to repost my pic. :)

    "If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"

    My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress

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    CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,554 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Could somebody please copy the comments about these restrikes in the Whitman Colonial book and send it to me?
    Thanks.
    TD

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
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    CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,554 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CaptHenway said:
    Could somebody please copy the comments about these restrikes in the Whitman Colonial book and send it to me?
    Thanks.
    TD

    Anyone? Class? Bueller?

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
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    While White metal issues are said to be produced only by Bowers Empire coin Co, I have a white metal example which exhibits the die details of the Bashlow strikes,
    The lack of large die crack through inner circle below C on obverse, no sign of the die clashing on right side of sundial, and no wood table details that are apparent on Bowers issue.
    It does have the Bashlow diagnostic of slanted die defect in denticles below and left of date, defect at top of first T of continental, and small dot between GR of Congress.
    There are more, but these should suffice.
    My conclusion is this must be one of the 'various other metal' strikes that Bashlow mentions.
    The above diagnostics are detailed on DMrarecoins site listed previously.
    Looking forward to hearing other's thoughts on this,
    Thanks Willard.
    http://www.dmrarecoins.com/Dickeson-Continental-Currency-Dollars.php

    Desire is oft more pleasant than acquisition.

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    CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,554 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Can you do a weight and specific gravity test on it?
    Please send copies of the photos to my email.
    TD

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
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    Thanks Capt, done.

    Desire is oft more pleasant than acquisition.

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