Please read closely Joe Orlando's column in Sept. 2017's SMR. Entitled "BUY WHAT MAKES YOU HAPPY"
IndianaJones
Posts: 346 ✭✭✭
Guys, and Gals, I just finished reading Joe Orlando's column in this month's (September, 2017) SPORTS MARKET REPORT. Entitled "BUY WHAT MAKES YOU HAPPY", it was thoroughly absorbing, pertinent, wise, and monumentally vital advice to any one of us that believes himself or herself to be a serious collector, or even semi-serious collector. If you think you already know what it's about just hearing the title, and therefore do not need to avail yourself of his prose, you better reconsider. I've been collecting since age 4, in 1958, and I found his words personally reassuring, and a reminder to keep on the right course in collecting.
Collecting common sense, if you will, in an age when common sense has become uncommon.
Thank you, Joe Orlando!
----Indiana Jones (Brian Powell)
Comments
I read it differently to be honest. It seemed he was "complaining" more or less about others raising concerns about grading situations. It was like he was tired of reading about the complaints or tired of hearing customers mention these statements during submissions. It more served purpose to him and PSA to notify us of their official stance/excuse. Just my opinion though, but I did think he was representing a take it or leave it attitude and your viewpoint surprised me.
FWIW, all the points he made about buying a card if you like it makes sense except that it completely ignored that the registry and PSA's reputation of excellence forces us to be very aware of the sales value and even registry population of a specific # grade of a card. If you were to ignore their grades and simply buy cards you liked, we would be buying them raw and not trusting a 3rd party source as that expert. Seems to me we rely on them for that expertise so we pay them and so we are bound to have questions associated with a service that we purchased no matter the industry.
Is the article online anywhere?
https://www.psacard.com/Articles/ArticleView/9300/taking-my-hacks-buy-what-makes-happy
This explains my failure to renew my PSA membership...If you don't like it, don't buy it.
Can't say I disagree with anything in the article. I do think Joe does a great job and the interactions I have had with him have been very positive. I can, however, see even him at times tiring of the "that is not an 8" or "my 9 looks better than that 10" rhetoric.
I am guilty of the rhetoric myself; however, I do realize grading is not an exact science and most times I do agree with grading assessments of PSA. They remain the gold standard in my book. My only current beef with the company is the lack of a good special to take more of my money on lower valued cards. (Big Grin)
I will lastly add that I could not fathom being a grader. Could you imagine being in a dark room, under a bright light, eight hours a day, five days a week concentrating on cards? I love cards as much as the next guy but that has to be absolutely grueling.
Matt
Of course, you should buy what you like, and don't buy what you don't like. But like secretstash pointed out, that wasn't the point of this article. He is complaining about hearing complaints about the inherent subjectivity of grading/authentication.
But PSA itself profits handsomely from the subjectivity and griping associated with it. How many cards did PSA review in the last 12 months (whether they were initially PSA graded or BGS/SGC)? I assume every one of those submissions came from an undesirable complainer. And how much money did PSA collect from said complainers due to their heavily graduated submission schedule? If you have the numbers, you do the math. It's going to be a very large amount.
And unlike the examples he gives about not liking a shirt or restaurant or Taylor Swift's latest tune (which is horrible), there are not many easy alternatives right now to PSA. For the majority of items, the market prefers PSA, and thus they attract the lion's share of business. But what if that dynamic changes someday? Then, instead of complaining about complainers, he'll write an article highlighting their new grading/authenticating specials to win you back! New submissions by complainers happily accepted!
PSA and the other TPG's certainly provide a worthwhile service for serious collectors. And I agree that it makes little sense to repeatedly bash online what you feel are overgraded items. But the fact that people are paying serious money to have a company apply an inherently subjective grading/authenticating process will always to lead many questions and disappointment....and of course elation if an item of yours is overgraded.
I can see this from many POVs - and nothing's really changed.
If one thinks grading has "affected" our hobby?
If on thinks the "Registry" has affected out hobby?
Simply put.
In the early 70s they decried the hobby's lack of comprehensive check lists and more importantly "price guidance."
With the advent of both? They complained that price guides were "ruining the hobby!"
Trite but true: the more things change, the more they stay the same IMO.
Joe made perfect sense in the past few SMRs when he pointed out that one should collect what they enjoy - it's a hobby - have fun.
Hiya Brian - thanx for posting buddy.
Great post, but the last paragraph nails it as I've been saying that for years. I have always wondered the salary of a grader and working conditions due to like you said: Having to concentrate on small pieces of cardboard in detail all day long. I get tired of looking at my own cards when putting submissions together after just a couple hours.
Here's the thing that would turn me off: It's one thing to examine cards you collect and like, but being a grader, you are looking at various different cards from all sports and non-sports issues. Could you imagine having to grade Michael Jackson cards or Kirk Cameron rookie cards from The Growing Pains release? It would end with either quitting or having a physchaotic episode for me...
Loved the article. Until the day I die, I will buy a better looking card in a lesser grade every single time. Case in point, my 58 Mantle is the greatest example I've ever seen and my most coveted piece in my collection. It stands at an 8.5. I have yet to see a 9 for sale that I would trade it with. Of course if it was all about dollars I would think otherwise, and sometimes it might be, but not in the case of the love of a card.
Using an example of an 8.5 to compare with other 9's, I would have to guess that it is a finite line to walk considering centering is likely the exceptional outlier for your 8.5 and key to many collectors. First off, may I see it? *Others may have but I have not and I would appreciate it!
Back to the article and your example, I would be shocked if you have never reviewed it or were not the one to get it reviewed originally. For everyone else who would love to own it, their likely first or second move would at some point be to try for a review, especially if money was not an issue. If I truly felt it was exceptional, no matter the motive of selling, adding to my private collection, or simply investing for a period of time, I do believe I would review it. I realize not everyone would upgrade a private collection piece, but if you are comparing the 8.5 to 9's, then you also would appreciate a 9 holder.
I think the poster who mentioned the complaints, reviews, & crack outs being a huge part of PSA's sales may have hit it on the head, because it is likely that every card they grade will progress to the right holder or the right owner--benefiting PSA the full journey. Joe may have missed a sales class somewhere on this, but the fact remains that if a card is mis-graded, then it will inevitably end up back in PSA's hands, and so from his perspective, he should welcome the questioning.
I thought it was a very good and timely article. I do not know if there was a motive behind the topic but I do know from my many years as a collector that the subjectivity of third party grading and the debate as to whether a grade is accurate will always take place. My guess is that Joe was saying if you feel a collectible does not present itself as well as the grade assigned, based on your standards or taste, then it might be best to pass on it.
On the other hand, I know several collectors who peruse eBay and also at card shows seeking out high quality 8's in older (pre half-point grading) holders, hoping to submit for review and get a grade bump. They are betting that their experience with grading will pay off when re-submitting to PSA. I have discussed this with Joe Orlando several times and he is very aware that this takes place as well as the many collectors who crack out cards from their holders and send them back in. He has never verbalized it to me but I'm sure he hears often from re-submitters who don't get the results they want. I know a collector who cracked out a card four times and re-submitted it. He got the same grade twice, a half-point lower once, and on the last submit got the same original grade again. What he has is a very nice card for the grade, although he still thinks it is under graded. Personally, my favorite card is a 1956 Topps Mickey Mantle in a PSA 8.5 holder. I have had it reviewed once because I think it is worthy of a 9. Yet it is still in that 8.5 holder and I am pleased to own it.
I collect PSA 9 mint vintage cards for the most part but I certainly know that not all PSA 9's present themselves equally. Centering and color is very important to me so I don't bid on or purchase PSA 9 cards that are on the outer boundaries of the PSA 9 grading criteria. Based on this, I agree with Joe that if the card doesn't fit your collection standards, move on. If there is one thing I have learned over the past 30 years it's that with patience you can find what you are looking for, unless of course you are waiting for one of the PSA 10 1952 Topps Mantles to hit the auction houses.
I did review it at the last show and thought it would bump but the said the bottom corners were 8.5.
If you could always examine PSA graded cards in person, Joe's comments would be well taken. Unfortunately, when buying online (which TPG is supposed to facilitate), not every defect is visible, and consistent TPG grading is needed to establish a standard that makes such transactions satisfactory.
Awesome card! I agree she is a beaut.
Thx man!!
I started back in the hobby when ASA was on board and PSA was on the horizon.
Buying thru SCD was a total crapshoot. Graded cards helped - returns were easy since "swapping" cards on return would be nearly impossible.
I believe the "take home message" was that no matter what - TPG'ing will always "invite" improvement but don't be surprised if - many times - they don't meet everyone's expectations.
I'm gonna view this as a glass half full.
Belz - that 8.5 is such an awesome example and never get tired of seeing it. Such a tough grade to find in that year and issue. Would not matter if it stayed an 8.5 or bumped to a 9 - it is a monster either way.
KC
I like Mr. Orlando and have always enjoyed the few interactions I've had with him, That being said I'm not sure what he's trying to accomplish with this article or what the motivation is...
In a nutshell, he states:
-We should collect what we want.
-Let's not get hung up on the technical grade of a card.
-If we don't like the card for the grade, don't buy it and move on.
-We are not enjoying our hobby for just collecting.
-Don't let it bother us because another person's grade shouldn't affect our love for the hobby.
As President of the company that has had the biggest financial impact on our hobby in the last 50 years (mostly positive), he knows financial stuff as well as anyone. His responsibilities at PSA are to be profitable, show sustained growth, increase market share, etc and have a positive impact to the shareholders and owners of PSA.
The reality is if we were all just collectors and had no financial motives in the hobby, we probably wouldn't be using PSA's services at all and there wouldn't be a place for them. Most of us have some financial incentives in this, some more than others. I believe Joe knows that as well as anyone.
This particular paragraph from the article just doesn't work:
Imagine that? You see a shirt in store that you don't care for and you refrain from purchasing it. You don't enjoy a particular dish on a restaurant menu, so you don't order it. You don't like a song you hear on the radio, so you don't buy it on iTunes. I think you get the picture. Instead of wasting your energy on a collectible you don't like, how about you find one you do like?
Ok, so my near flawless Pete Rose RC remains a PSA 8.5 and a 12-14K value while much uglier PSA 9's are fetching 70-75K. Joe's saying. That's a price swing equivalent to the purchase price a very nice car. There is no comparison to a song, a shirt, or a restaurant. It's like me telling Joe to take a 30% pay cut. "It should not be just about the money dude. You're President of a company that looks at cards all day. Enjoy it man".
There is a point to be made that there is too much negativity out there in the world, and maybe that's what he meant with the shirts and songs analogy, but in the end people are going to always complain when there's this much money to be made by arbitrary 3rd parties that go with a higher grade over another. That is never going to go away...the negativity and complaining about grades out there stems from resentment that our cards get lesser grades than those we complain about. It's not always just complaining for the sake of being negative. In a lot of cases, we are seeing some sort of financial impact.
Again, from my experience and everything I've heard, Joe Orlando is a pretty down to Earth and class guy. He and PSA do a lot right. I realize this is a PSA run board. This is just all my opinion and a rebuttal to the article.
TheClockworkAngelCollection
In response to "Buy What Makes You Happy" i collect Montreal Canadiens cards and from 1958 to 1992 there are a few names that do not sound familiar to me it is less expensive than collecting company sets that have many many players that i never heard of before .rocket52
My main problem with the article is that I'm relying on PSA's consistently applied standards to help me determine what cards will make me happy, often with inadequate scans and information. Isn't that what their role is supposed to be as a third party grading service?
My approach as well and a great view on collecting.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
I'd say the get it right much more often than not. Funny that I had emailed Joe about 3 seperate situations days before this article. I did write I wasn't complaining and said if I had really "had it" I wouldn't be still sending cards in.
Instead of asking me to read the article, he sent me a nice email, saying almost the same thing. Also, he was willing to take a look personally and have something reviewed.
Great article from a buyers perspective. It's true no system is perfect. Any card or collectible we buy should be examined closely. That includes passing on cards on ebay if a good scan can not be obtained.