Should Jose Ramirez of the Cleveland Indians be considered for AL MVP??

keets

I believe he should be and thought the same thing last season.

What he did last season was pretty remarkable. He began the season as a spot player, mainly in LF but a little at 3B. Mid-season he had made enough of an impact at the plate that Terry Francona made the obvious decision that Jose needed to be a regular starter....................somewhere. That was LF where he did a better than average job. Than the starter at 3b, Juan Uribe, had his season and career ended by a line drive into his crotch!!! So Jose Ramirez was asked to be the regular at 3b.

He showed some remarkable skill at the hot corner.

At the start of 2017 he was at 3b until the regular at 2b, Jason Kipnis, suffered an injury and they asked him to play that position. He filled in without missing a beat, returned to 3b briefly until Kipnis re-injured himself. So Jose is back at 2b where he helped turn five double plays over the weekend. His production at the plate hasn't really suffered although he had a brief slump and went 0-17 a week back.

The inevitable MVP in the AL generally gets around to guys like Mike Trout who is having another really good year. I would wonder if voters take not of what happens in the field aside from batting and how players contribute. Any thoughts??

Al H.

DIMEMAN

I think you are stretching. I know what you are saying about him filling in here and there and helping his team when needed. But guys like Trout having good to great years at the plate will probably win out most of the time. I think stats are what they look for when voting and you have to be on a good to great winning team also.

Darin

Sure he should be considered. He's having a great season. But one thing voters seem to
like is a lot of RBI's from a power hitter and Ramirez is a little lacking in that department.
76 extra base hits really stands out to me, and still three plus weeks left in the season.
The guy is a doubles machine.
Regarding the RBIs', guys in front of him must be getting on base at a below average rate,
so not really his fault if runners are not there to drive in.

Darin

I think Mike Trout missed too much of the season to be considered, but
he is having a great year nevertheless.

orioles93

I think Altuve is the AL MVP at this point. Does everything well and leads the league in hits and average.

I do think Ramirez deserves consideration, he is having a great year. I also think another 2B deserves consideration, Jonathan Schoop. He is hitting over .300, has 30 homers, 101 RBI (2nd in the AL), 4th in the AL in hits, and plays gold glove quality defense.

keets

Dimeman, he has done more than just "filling in here and there" during the season. he has played in exemplary fashion wherever he's asked to play going on two full seasons now. I believe that when he came up he was a third baseman but there was nowhere for him to play. Tito put him in LF because of his bat, moved him to 3b when he was needed and he was a big part of the Team reaching the WS.

this year has been the same, he has probably played as much at 2b as 3b. Anyone who knows his salt understand there's a little difference between the two positions, yet his transition has been flawless and through it all the offense has still been there. he's hit anywhere from 2-6, again, doing what's needed.

For all his offense, I don't think Trout is really that much ahead of Ramirez, and he can't match what Jose gives in the field. That is true value, just as no true value ever seems to go to any of the very fine catchers in the game. I think any catcher who plays 125-140 games and hits .270 with 20+ hrs. is very, very valuable. that player won't even get a vote because everyone likes HR's.

I think the guy who will win in the AL is Altuve, but I don't know why.

DIMEMAN

Keets I was just going by what you said about him "filling in". I have no idea how good he is or anyone else for that matter. I don't pay any attention to BB until the playoffs now days. It's my least favorite sport besides Hockey of the 4 main sports. Back when the "Big Red Machine" was THE team I watched a lot of BB. But since then I have lost interest.

As far as MVP........it has always been a huge debate who should get them and how it should be decided. I always thought it should just be decided by stats no matter what team the player was on or how they finished. But it seems like it always goes to someone on a good team and somebody is always unhappy.

keets

two more HR's for Ramirez today and it's only the third inning!!! that makes five in three games.

Justacommeman

Dude is en fuego. And not to get lost in the shuffle JD Martinez hit 4 home runs in one game yesterday in the Diamondbacks playoff run.

mark

keets

Arizona and Cleveland may have a date with destiny, both are peaking while the rest of MLB seems to be showing the signs of wear after a long season.

DIMEMAN

All I can say is go Cubs!

dallasactuary

Ramirez should, and will, be considered for MVP but he shouldn't win, based on his numbers so far. Despite missing all those games, Trout is still the most valuable (contributed to the most wins) player in the AL. If voters want to bypass him anyway - and they probably will - Altuve has been the most valuable player who hasn't missed a bunch of games. But, lots of MVP voters do suffer from the hallucination that games won in September are more important than games won in May, so if Ramirez plays the rest of September as he has so far, he's got a decent shot.

A footnote for those who remember the epic thread regarding who ought to win the 2008 NL MVP. Ryan Howard was among the worst, if not the worst, player in major league baseball for the period from Opening Day through the end of August. Then he had a great September, and came in second in the MVP voting (I wouldn't have put him on my 20 person ballot). His September was so great that it almost - almost - raised his entire season to the level of "average". That is how much September stats can distort the perception of who is valuable; which is to say, it's still too soon to even know who the candidates for MVP are.

BLUEJAYWAY

@keets said:
Arizona and Cleveland may have a date with destiny, both are peaking while the rest of MLB seems to be showing the signs of wear after a long season.

I would rather have my team peaking 1- 1 1/2 weeks before the regular season ended heading into the playoffs. Not at a time with so much regular season baseball left in 2017. Before the law of averages takes over,as it always does. Witness the 1964 Phil. Phillies.

keets

dallas, all the players mentioned, Ramirez/Trout/Altuve have had very solid seasons. to your point of September, it takes that for a guy like Ramirez to even get noticed by most fans.

dallasactuary

@keets said:
dallas, all the players mentioned, Ramirez/Trout/Altuve have had very solid seasons. to your point of September, it takes that for a guy like Ramirez to even get noticed by most fans.

I've got no problem with Ramirez getting noticed for having a good September, it's when it makes people forget that Altuve was better in April, May, June, July and August that I get steamed. Whatever happens this year it won't approach the silliness of Ryan Howard coming in 2nd in 2008; Ramirez is having a fine year.

keets

pay attention ---- Ramirez was better in April, May, June, July and August, of this year and last just as you assert Altuve was. his consideration wouldn't be based on a good September, he's been solid all year.

Justacommeman

Altuve was better then Ramirez in April, May, June, July and August was Dallas's point

mark

keets

yes, Mark, and my point was that Ramirez was also better in those months, but --- pay attention --- it took the few things he has done in September to get him noticed. all that said, don't look for Ramirez to be doing any TV commercials soon. it isn't his style and our market is just too small.

BTW, thanks for helping explain things to me.

dallasactuary

@keets said:
--- pay attention ---

If you're trying out a new catch phrase with the intention of being named the most annoying person here, I'd say you're on the right track. You've got my vote anyway.

Justacommeman

@keets said:
yes, Mark, and my point was that Ramirez was also better in those months, but --- pay attention --- it took the few things he has done in September to get him noticed. all that said, don't look for Ramirez to be doing any TV commercials soon. it isn't his style and our market is just too small.

BTW, thanks for helping explain things to me.

You are welcome. You seemed confused. Glad to help. Yes, Ramierez wasn't better in those months as Altuve. Glad it's clear now.

mark

keets

OK --- pay attention again --- I'm not saying Ramirez was better than Altuve during those months, because statistically he wasn't, he was playing better than he currently is. certainly the short term stats look better right now, but up until early August Jose Ramirez was very consistent and the best overall player on the Team. and that dates back into 2016.

so sorry I annoyed you, dallas, but sometimes it's the only way to get someone's attention. I'm not sorry if I annoyed Mark, he can be a twit sometimes and deserves to be annoyed.

dallasactuary

@keets said:
OK --- pay attention again ---

so sorry I annoyed you, dallas,

If you were really sorry, you wouldn't have said "pay attention" again. On the annoying scale, it even ranks above "I could care less".

keets

sarcasm........................

dallasactuary

@keets said:
sarcasm........................

... can be really, really annoying if used improperly.

keets

and Ramirez continues to carry his weight on the field and at the plate. he hammered a two-run no-doubter last night but it wasn't enough for #23. I guess we knew the Streak would end eventually.

vintagefun

I read something on CBS about Ramirez. Gave due props for an incredible season, and that he's in the running, but suggested he can't win as he's not even the MVP of team....that would be Kluber.

Went on to lament that Kluber and Sale should be in running but pitchers only win when offensive options are weak...and Altuve, Trout and Ramirez are anything but.

Also, brought up interesting point that pitchers get no love because the play 1/5 games. But they face more batters than most hitters get plate appearances. Found that intriguing.

We'll see how it shakes out.

keets

pitchers should never win MVP.

vintagefun

While I tend to agree, they're getting 17-19% of the team wins, allowing less than 3 runs/game...in the AL, strike out more than one per inning, thus earning more than 1/3 of the outs on their own, and allow less than 1 base runner per inning. I'm not sure the %age of wins when they pitch, but expect it's solid too....and again face more hitters in a season than hitters get plate appearances.

A very select few should at least be in consideration it seems...otherwise it should maybe be MVOP if it's purely offense.

dallasactuary

I don't agree that a pitcher should never win the MVP, but it is rare for a pitcher to deserve it playing 30-some games. If you ignore - and you should - the years when common sense and intelligence were on vacation and the MVP went to relief pitchers, the MVP has gone to a pitcher 8 times (out of 142) since WWII. (They gave MVP's to pitchers more, and way too often, before that). And as a group, the ones that have gone to pitchers are about as defensible as the ones that have gone to non-pitchers. It's rare for a pitcher to be as awesome as Gibson in '68 or Kershaw in '14, but when it happens they deserve the MVP. Kluber is having a fantastic year, but it's not an MVP year.

keets

my reasoning is simple, they already have an MVP for pitchers, it's called the Cy Young award. to follow the logic of vintagefun and pitchers facing batters is ridiculous. a pitcher like Kluber has the chance to influence the outcome of 35-40 games per year, a player like Ramirez will influence the outcome of perhaps 155 games each season. looking at players like Altuve, Trout and Ramirez from a batting perspective misses half their game --- each one handles the ball sometimes 2-3 times an inning in ways that save the pitchers bacon every game.

Justacommeman

Every blue moon a pitcher is so disgustingly dominant that they have no choice but to award them the MVP. I'm ok with that. Otherwise I'd like to see it go to a position player

mark

dallasactuary

@keets said:
my reasoning is simple, they already have an MVP for pitchers, it's called the Cy Young award.

I hear you, and you make a good point. But your beef is with MLB and how they've defined "MVP", not with the voters who just follow the rules they are given.

Regarding your point about how hitters also handle the ball in the field several times each game, I just wanted to point out that this argument obviously doesn't apply to designated hitters. It's why no designated hitter ever has deserved an MVP, or likely ever will.

keets

I hear you, and you make a good point. But your beef is with MLB and how they've defined "MVP", not with the voters who just follow the rules they are given.

I think MLB decided to award the Cy Young for two reasons: to honor a pitcher widely regarded as the best ever and to alleviate the conflict(as I see it) of having a pitcher win the MVP award. to that end, my beef isn't with MLB at all, it is with the voting members of the Media.

remember, those are the enlightened followers of MLB who have never been able to see past their personal grudges and agendas to vote anyone into the HOF unanimously. those writers as a group shouldn't be trusted to know which drawer has the socks and which drawer has the underwear. from that voting perspective they define incompetent.

Justacommeman

Odds as of Sept 1 from Vegas to win the AL MVP

Top Five

Jose Altuve (HOU) -200
Mike Trout (LAA) +275
Aaron Judge (NYY) +700
Jonathan Schoop (BAL) +1200
Carlos Correa (HOU) +2500

I would think that Ramirez would be ahead of Correa by now.

I think it will be a near unanimous Altuve

mark

keets

I said earlier in the thread that I thought Altuve would win it and I still think he will. what puzzles me is why I started the thread: Jose Ramirez doesn't even get serious consideration. if the playoffs go according to what is the expected script it may be interesting to watch the two play against each other.

Darin

I would not only give Ramirez serious consideration, but also Francisco Lindor.
I've seen enough Indians games to realize how valuable he is to that team.

Justacommeman

All that is well and good but it won't happen so consideration will have to do. They are both very good players and valuable to their team regardless.

mark