Looks like CNBC is Profiling Bill Mastro on American Greed Soon
HighGradeLegends
Posts: 1,693 ✭✭✭✭
Saw it referenced in this article. Sad new worthy stuff in the hobby revolves around fraud.
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Monday night at 10 ET.
Wow
Set to record ty for the heads up
First I can't wait to see how shady American Greed will make our hobby look.
I scanned the attachment djr had and saw TJ Schwartz on the list several times. Is this they guy that use to write for Tuff Stuff magazine? I remember he has great advice for people NOT to take Paypal!
This is interesting, just shows you how far this guy will stoop.
https://cnbc.com/video/2017/08/16/is-that-really-elvis-hair.html
https://kennerstartinglineup.blogspot.com/
I believe Mastro was released from prison a few months ago.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
The victim list has quite a few heavy hitters that are well-known in the collecting world.
IG: goatcollectibles23
The biggest lesson I've learned in this hobby, and in life, is that if you have a strong conviction, you owe it to yourself to see it through. Don't sell yourself, or your investments, short. Unless the facts change. Then sell it all.
Doesn't Heritage state in their terms that they reserve the right to shill?
I followed the Mastro case and the mere fact he and his cronies actually served time is amazing. From what I read the fed initially didn't want to pursue the case, however one of the scammed collectors had money and connections. I guess it shows you that money does buy justice.
not sure if any of you are n54 readers but it also has peter s. on the shilling list.
same guy who rides pwccs backside about the same, giving larry all sorts of heck in the current "ashamed" thread and so forth and so on.
basically the self appointed caped crusader who fights fraud over there.
hadnt seen it but heard peter's glass house is over 18'000 sf.
and get this, he shilled fully knowing the consequences, as he is an attorney.
all of his posts are ironically comical.
I may be wrong but I think Leon is on the list too
I'm not a lawyer or stayed at a Holiday inn Express lately but isn't there some type of commercial standard (UCC?) that would prevent an "auction" house from having a Rule 21? That like saying the restaurant serves organic food but we have the option to use non-organic food when we feel like it,
JFK-- you are a member there, right ? if you think Leon is on a list why not post over there and ask him.
Bowman Baseball -1948-1955
Fleer Baseball-1923, 1959-2007
Al
Auction law is governed on the State level and it varies. Texas, along with many other States, allows the owner of the item being auctioned to be a bidder without disclosing it. It is why you need to know the applicable law in any given State and why you should probably avoid high-end merchandise in an auction held in such a State that allows shill bidding. These auction houses operate under the theory that 90% plus of bidders don't understand what the law allows.
Ask yourself, would you buy a classic car for six figures that is allegedly "100% original" but the seller has no chain of title/ownership, you can't inspect the car and you have to take his buddy's word(or the auctioneer's word) for it that its 100% original? And to top it off, the seller can have two people in the crowd shilling the bid? Of course not. But this describes a very large percentage of sports memorabilia auctions. And at the end of the day, you can't really verify if many of these online auctions were even real. The sports memorabilia market is very unique in this regard and why the "high end" market is really a very relatively small pool of people(many of which don't even realize it).
I actively collect Kirby Puckett. I have collections of Michael Jordan, Emmitt Smith, Roberto Clemente, Dwight Gooden, Tom Seaver, Errict Rhett and Evan Longoria.
Good post Jimmy
Bowman Baseball -1948-1955
Fleer Baseball-1923, 1959-2007
Al
Some of the names of shill bidders listed in the attachment that drj posted stunned me. I just lost a ton of respect for those people.
Not that it changes what happened but I would be curious to know how many of the buyers stand years later in terms of the prices they paid at that time and what they could recoup today. One item with the person referenced above has a stated loss of over 17k on a 30k item.
...havent one or more of these guys, or criminals i guess they can now be called, moved on to be bigger names in the memorabilia or auction industry?
talk about no honor among thieves. some of the shillers or consignors that made money also became "winners", ultimate losers of various shilled auctions listed in the attachment.
..they should be banished from making a dollar in the industry for at least 10 years if not permanently.
Dumb question...for my education...what is the legal definition of a "shill?" And does this vary by State? I assume in some way it involves a bid placed on a given item in which the bidder has a personal financial stake in, has no intention of winning, and is done to increase the final price? I.e. an auction house bidding on its own items from multiple consignors (driving up hammer prices to increase revenue from consignment fees) or a consignor bidding on his/her own item in a masked identity fashion from a given auction house (driving up the hammer price to obtain highest revenue possible).
In contrast, I have seen many episodes of "Storage Wars," where a bidder simply bids to drive up the price of a locker with no intention really wanting to buy the locker in order to penalize a competitor with a higher hammer price (less potential profit $$$ for the winner). This bidding action appears not to be a shill; rather, the bidder driving up the price has no personal financial stake in the locker or auction house. The bidder's intent is to increase the price without having to buy the item, though very sleazy and slimy (i.e. unethical in our hobby), but not a shill. Correct assessment, yes or no?
I have also seen cases of bidders making small bids to simply to see where the price is going (the bidder has no stake in the auction or auction house) and then stops bidding when they have obtained enough info about the price sensitivity and intentions of other buyers (i.e. seen in classic car auctions). Though this drives the price upward, the bidder does not have a stake in the auction....they may benefit by obtaining price sensitivity information, I do not see this as a shill. Do others share a similar assessment?
Back in the early 2000s, I had an exhaustive Tom Seaver Collection which went into a Robert Edward Auction. I am fairly certain that Mastro had some sort of affiliation with them at that time. I got absolutely hosed by those criminals. Their description and layout in the catalog was not well designed or completely described. I had about a collection with a value of 20K that went for about 3K. I always felt they deliberately downplayed the collection, bought it themselves and sold it all at a later time.
Wow. Horrible, just unreal. I'm recording, thx for the info and stories.
While Leon is on that list, it looks like he is only on the list as a winning bidder/victim, not as a shill bidder. TJ Schwartz on the other hand...
Watched it this evening.
Throw out the hokey dramatics and I think that anyone who gets back into the hobby after some time away, for guys of my generation, or simply into vintage in general needs to watch this. If anyone thinks that something like this won't or isn't happening again you are wrong.
Sell something you collect in a $.99 cent auction yourself. If the price isn't in the ballpark with what you see in auction house auctions then you have your answer. eBay is a level enough playground that if you have a graded item, solid positive feedback, and PayPal why wouldn't prices be consistent? I get that some of us are pickier than others and each card is different but as a whole their should be a consistent consensus of value.
Kevin
Kevin
A few questions and observations:
1) The lawyer Lichtman, he mentioned he first brought up his suspicions on a message board. I assume it was the net54 board? I don't recall that topic coming up here. Lesson is don't mess with a defense lawyer that has Gotti Jr and El Chapo as clients.
2) The Negro League collector - I don't see how he knew he was shilled in the auction. The stuff he collected didn't look that expensive. I don't know if Negro league cards sell for enough money to make it worthwhile to shill.
3) The old guy with the rug or bad dye job on his head sounds like a collector that really didn't know what he was doing. Expecting his off-grade cards to sell for the same as high end grades is plain ignorant. Maybe that Goudey card (Ruth?) he had in the SGC slab was doctored and sent in for regrade, but that could have been done by anyone. Plus I wonder what type of collector doesn't have a list of his cards before just giving them to an auction house. Most collectors I know are pretty ADD when it comes to their cards.
4) I'm pretty sure this still happens in the hobby. Lichtman says that there is a 25% "tax" in the hobby for all the card values Mastro jacked up and distorted the market. I started to think about it more after I watched the show, makes me wonder if I should downsize and take a break from the hobby.
Exactly my thoughts
Same here, man.
Interesting show. You wonder how over time modern stuff will fair. Crazy that vintage cards and their scarcity in higher grades are less than many modern cards which also have such a variety and sum of cards. How many different kris Bryant cards are out there for serious money? I wonder if a Mastro type already manipulated and inflated those type cards? Basketball modern is insane in prices. Pokemon base charizard is over 4500 on pwcc wherein you can get the card for 1500 elsewhere and 750 a couple months ago...hard to know what's manipulated and what's trending upward but regardless, I continue to scratch my head and wonder.
Had I not read about the issues in the program over the years I think I would have found it pretty shocking. The average person at home who is just watching the show and doesn't participate in the collectibles market probably will. I guess I have always thought the card market was filled with sketchy figures from the dealer who wanted to buy your cards as a kid at pennies on the dollar to coming home at 2 AM drunk in my 20's watching an infomercial hawking garbage that was going to somehow make you rich. It just has always had a somewhat shady feel but not to the degree that has been uncovered and showcased. This situation confirms that some really egregious things have taking place and I would think it is safe to say are taking place currently. As I watch many high profile cards continue to deflate it certainly gives one reason to believe the same shenanigans that took place during this time took place in the past few years. As the agent said, collectors use prior sales as a comp similar to real estate and if you are using false sales or sales that only took place at a specific price due to fraudulent bidding the asset will eventually correct to a more realistic level and in some cases will overshoot on the downside as fear of losing becomes more dominant in ones mind than the potential upside. I think the best take away for all collectors is do some serious research before diving head first into the hobby. If someone is only participating for investment purposes they better really know what they are doing that is for sure. For those like me that enjoy the hunt and the chase of collecting cards it will be business as usual.
Had I not read about the issues in the program over the years I think I would have found it pretty shocking. The average person at home who is just watching the show and doesn't participate in the collectibles market probably will.
I think your observation is spot on. My wife, who takes no interest at all in my collection, watched the episode with me last night, and was shocked at what she saw and heard. She shook her head and/or gasped often.
What shocked me the most in the episode, because I had never heard of it before, were the events described whereby the description or presentation of a consigned auction item was purposely downplayed so as to not draw too much attention to it so certain bidders "in the know" would be able to purchase the item at a lesser price. That gave me a sickening feeling.
I think I have a Tiger Woods UpperDeck card somewhere that I don't remember buying.
I'm actually shocked that so many people are shocked about the level of fraud or these types of schemes and scams. This was at least part of the reason many of us dropped out in the late 90's(too many people had gotten in just to make a $, didn't care about anything else, ruined the hobby for good). And what they talked about in that show is only the tip of the ice burg. I'm pretty sure many more people in the "hobby" are "in on it" than you want to believe. There is no other collectables market that has as much fraud coupled with a large percentage of naïve and gullible people. Its almost like a religion; as long as enough people "believe", there's a "market".
I actively collect Kirby Puckett. I have collections of Michael Jordan, Emmitt Smith, Roberto Clemente, Dwight Gooden, Tom Seaver, Errict Rhett and Evan Longoria.
A few observations (I did miss a few minutes here and there)
They spent no time on card grading, but lots of time on memorabilia authentication. If this had aired 4 years ago, I would be left wondering what those cards were doing inside of plastic cases. The example of the Ruth Goudey going from SGC (lower grade) to PSA (higher grade) or vice versa wasn't explained very well.
I hope that guy that turned his $50 garage sale find into $50K (or whatever) instead of $300K finds the irony in the story.
Is that really how you pronounce Lajoie? And is that card really the second rarest?
It's a good thing I have nothing worth selling through an auction house, Ebay is bad enough.
Agree. In 20-30 years I'm sure there will still be a market for 2000s-2010s rookie cards and first bowman cards, any trout (or a select few other players) cards and that's about it.
American Greed did a great job of explaining the deception that Mastro/Allen had on the market. I was one of the victims from their dishonest acts and was well aware of what had transpired before this thing aired. I think the most sickening thing was the guy who consigned the cards to them. Obviously, the consignor killed it because it brought close to $50K but it should have brought much more. I have never thought about the angle of AH's under describing the lots and under grading the material. The Lajoie that went missing was plain theft which is gut wrenching in itself.
I can see why some collectors here on the board have the attitude of never wanting to use an AH. The greatest thing about our hobby that technology has played a major part in has been message boards like this. These forums give collectors a chance to develop relationships and broaden our knowledge of products and dealers who we can trust. We are all playing a game that is very expensive and dangerous. Greed and foul play is going to exist around every corner through our journey of collecting.
I am sorry for the long post but the two things that I took away from this was to know who I do business with and make sure that my wife knows who to trust should I pass away.
These forums give collectors a chance to develop relationships and broaden our knowledge of products and dealers who we can trust. We are all playing a game that is very expensive and dangerous. Greed and foul play is going to exist around every corner through our journey of collecting.
and our self-policing...it was bandied about here quite frequently at the start of the "buying group" and with some members here doing enough detective work to actually figure out a few of the shillers and players...so much so that we curtailed our buying for the last year and a half...until prices are now returning to their baseline...and i hope not below it.
....nothing really surprising because fraud deception etc has been here since before i started...ive def been a victim..so much so one AH continues to follow me trying to get me to buy again as i did in my 20's...a long time ago...but i guess i made their book.
...and i don't think this is the death knell for the hobby...its not going away in a few years as one has stated....unfortunately i think it'll just be business as usual and u have live by the ol "buyer beware", do ur homework and due diligence...and even then.....
Regarding new collectors, I'm sure this show didn't help attract new blood into the hobby. We could be reach peak collecting since those young collectors from the 1980's to mid-1990's are just now hitting prime earning years. This is where modern products come into play. I think base Topps for baseball and Donruss in FB are a good start to try and develop new collectors.
what djr said
The manipulation on modern is alive and well. Just the past two days someone was outed in a Facebook "razz" room. He had bought several cards at lower prices then bought a few at higher BIN prices on eBay to create false comps and raise the prices of his stack he bought lower. Anyone who thinks this practice isn't rampant is kidding themselves.
Appreciate today-
Bill
i think about it but nothing else appeals to me hobby wise..where would you guys go to?....and how serious can these thoughts be when i just bought 5 or 6 cards this past couple of weeks..would have gotten a major one in Heritage Auction (not topps heritage) but i fell asleep and didnt hear my phone alarm go off.....thats the problem with late night endings...and Heritage is def one of the best ....not like 4 am or check on it before you go off to work the next day.."yep, auction still humming along"...but i digress
...and the t206s etc are alive and pretty much well.... and who here remembers buying those as a kid? ...exactly!