in a nutshell, I think your argument comes down to year-long consistency vs. end-year surge. I will take the former over the latter, and I think the fact that the Yankees are one game away from elimination only highlights that fact: if Aaron Judge had "carried" his Team the entire season(as Jose Altuve has done) instead of doing a dumpster dive for two months the Yanks would be ahead of Boston(and he probably would be at 60+ HR's, which is amazing).
also, as I alluded to in my Jose Ramirez thread, Altuve makes a much greater contribution in the field and that absolutely has to be a consideration. that is why I always shy away from a pure DH, no matter haw good has stats are, from being an MVP.
Actually games where you have a better understanding of the magnitude of the outcome matter more. No different than at bats when the score is close matter more.
Actually games where you have a better...........................
I'm not sure if you're supporting Judge's late surge or not, so I'll assume you are. didn't he understand that games in July and August are important??
I think this whole thread started because Judge had that horrible and prolonged slump after the All-star break. It certainly looks like he's made adjustments and is more comfortable now. Just amazing what he's done with that huge strike zone. I probably mentioned this before in this thread but before the season, Yankee fans would have loved .250 and 25 HR from Judge.
during his "dumpster dive" he was still getting on base and scoring runs. His OBP was over 300. I wouldn't be surprised if he won Gold Glove as well. He has played the best right field in Yankee Statdium in my lifetime.
The Yanks would be no where without his contribution. Astros would have still won without Altuve, just not wrapped it up in early August.
since I started the thread I will answer the question of why the thread was started --- the media hype over his first half. go back and re-read the OP where it is very clear. I didn't knock Judge, I criticized the media for wanting to elevate him after less than a full season and I would still say the same thing. let's give him a good look during next season for a better overall opinion.
he has done great this year, but other Rookies have done the same and faded, that is all I had hoped to say.
The media and fans ended up being correct in the hype this year. If anything under hyped
Of course rookies often fade. Some get better. If this guy gets better holy crap
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
The national media hype around him and the intensity of the NY stage really make his poise, humility, and in-game performance all the more impressive and admirable. It's hard enough to play the game, let alone under the harshest spotlights and scrutiny.
When veterans like Todd Frazier say it's an honor to play with a rookie, that says a great deal. As a lifelong baseball fan, Aaron Judge makes me go beyond the numbers. “He went through it and just kept working,’’ Todd Frazier said on Monday. “That’s very hard to come back from, but that’s his mentality, his personality. It’s incredible, hitting 50, and for him to be as humble as he is, it’s an honor to play with him.”
I don't care about Judge or Altuve. The issue is folks can't claim one at bat is more important than another due to the score then say that all games are equal. Obviously games where you understand their impact on the playoff race are more important. Games later in the season do in fact have more importance than those earlier. I think we would all agree that if two teams are tied heading into the last game of the season then that last game is more important than a contest between those teams in May. Context matters, whether it is a game or an at bat.
@fergie23 said:
I think we would all agree that if two teams are tied heading into the last game of the season then that last game is more important than a contest between those teams in May.
But you see, early-season tilts directly impact the "more important" games at the tail end. If a player or players go full throttle in May as opposed to thinking, "No extra effort needed, because games at this stage aren't nearly as important," that line of thinking could very well be the difference between clinching in #161 in lieu of playing for your postseason life on the final day of the regular season.
@galaxy27 said:
Nothing against Judge as he has had a phenomenal season and is fantastic for the game in so many ways, but if Jose Altuve does not win the MVP it is a crime against humanity.
Crime against humanity? REALLY?
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
Judge won the AL Player of the Month for June and Altuve won in July. If I was to guess, Judge is a lock for POTM in September. 2 POTM's beats 1.
More historical context. The five players with 50 home runs, 120 runs scored and 120 walks in a season EVER:
Babe Ruth (6 times)
Mickey Mantle
Mark McGuire
Barry Bonds
Aaron Judge
It's a historic season. And he's a rookie. I can't wait to see what this kid does in the coming years.
hopefully, he works with coaches on his patience because right now he strikes out almost once every three times to the plate. remarkably, for every 10 plate appearances he either walks, strikes-out or hits a Home Run in six of them. I'll say one thing, when he stands in the batters box everyone has a pretty good idea of what is going to happen, and two of them are good!!
@keets said:
hopefully, he works with coaches on his patience because right now he strikes out almost once every three times to the plate. remarkably, for every 10 plate appearances he either walks, strikes-out or hits a Home Run in six of them. I'll say one thing, when he stands in the batters box everyone has a pretty good idea of what is going to happen, and two of them are good!!
I don't think patience is quite what you are looking for. He see's more pitches per at bat then another other player in MLB. He may need to cut down on his swing a little with two strikes or try to go with the pitch to the opposite filed with two strikes. Maybe it's being a little more selective. However, it's hard to give to much advise as you run the risk of messing with his head. If nothing changes and he does this for 15 years he will be a first ballot HOFer
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@keets said:
hopefully, he works with coaches on his patience because right now he strikes out almost once every three times to the plate. remarkably, for every 10 plate appearances he either walks, strikes-out or hits a Homesignificance Run in six of them. I'll say one thing, when he stands in the batters box everyone has a pretty good idea of what is going to happen, and two of them are good!!
he leads the league in walks and pitches per at bat. How much more patience does he need? He takes too many pitches waist high, right down the middle. It's almost as if he is expecting a curve and they throw a pitch right in his wheelhouse and he freezes.
I noticed he stole a meaningless base last night, #9, to pad his stat line. Altuve has 24, maybe he is trying to narrow that gap. Or maybe there is some historical significance to 10 stolen bases and 50 home runs
@galaxy27 said:
Nothing against Judge as he has had a phenomenal season and is fantastic for the game in so many ways, but if Jose Altuve does not win the MVP it is a crime against humanity.
Crime against humanity? REALLY?
I'll try not to issue any more hyperbolic statements. I'd hate for you to hurt yourself.
@galaxy27 said:
Nothing against Judge as he has had a phenomenal season and is fantastic for the game in so many ways, but if Jose Altuve does not win the MVP it is a crime against humanity.
Crime against humanity? REALLY?
I'll try not to issue any more hyperbolic statements. I'd hate for you to hurt yourself.
In that case he should stretch more before coming to the Sports Forum
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I haven't seen Judge play that much but when I have seen him he tended to get to two strikes quick. after that he's given "junk" which tends to account for the high pitch count. he is also liable to the high fastball as many other players are, to my way of thinking that's due at least in part because every swing is an HR swing. Mark is correct, less swing at two strikes, some players even choke up slightly at that point.
walks and HR's are certainly good, but I really doubt that trend will be the standard for his career. and besides, it is pretty common knowledge(at least I have heard it all season) that the ball is juiced. that is the one aspect of MLB that I really hate, the League has a history of manipulating the game for its own success.
BTW, since there are some here obsessing on stats, have you been watching what Charlie Blackmon has done in the NL?? he seems like a no-doubt MVP. I wonder how much of that is affected by where he plays half his games.
@galaxy27 said:
Nothing against Judge as he has had a phenomenal season and is fantastic for the game in so many ways, but if Jose Altuve does not win the MVP it is a crime against humanity.
Crime against humanity? REALLY?
I'll try not to issue any more hyperbolic statements. I'd hate for you to hurt yourself.
Thank you. I'm old you know, could kill me. ;-)
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
Want to see some crazy good stats look at JD Martinez this year between Detroit and Arizona. He missed 30+ games. He is as good as any slugger in the game
Ave .304
HR. 44
RBI 103
SLG .695!!!
The kicker? He has only 418 at bats!!!!
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
There are a lot of good candidates for MVP in the NL; Blackmon, Votto, Stanton, Arenado, Bryant, Rizzo and Harper all have a case. My vote would go to Arenado but any of the above seem reasonable. Even with all the missing games, Martinez would be in the running, too, if he'd been in the NL all year. Trout only has 388 at bats and he's yet again the best player in the AL.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
@dallasactuary said:
There are a lot of good candidates for MVP in the NL; Blackmon, Votto, Stanton, Arenado, Bryant, Rizzo and Harper all have a case. My vote would go to Arenado but any of the above seem reasonable. Even with all the missing games, Martinez would be in the running, too, if he'd been in the NL all year. Trout only has 388 at bats and he's yet again the best player in the AL.
Trout's team isn't even a 500 team. Amazing how few 500 teams there are this year
@dallasactuary said:
There are a lot of good candidates for MVP in the NL; Blackmon, Votto, Stanton, Arenado, Bryant, Rizzo and Harper all have a case. My vote would go to Arenado but any of the above seem reasonable. Even with all the missing games, Martinez would be in the running, too, if he'd been in the NL all year. Trout only has 388 at bats and he's yet again the best player in the AL.
BTW lost in the Judge September is JD Martinez. He has hit 16 home runs in September breaking the NL record held since 1949. He has hit 29 home runs for the playoff bound Diamondbacks since he was traded from Detroit on July 18
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
for a long time the Cleveland Indians had their AAA farm Team in Colorado Springs. it seemed that every time a top prospect came up his performance was disappointing. talk would get around to the altitude but it never made sense. then in the 80's(I think) the organization made some changes and moved everything closer to Cleveland and the turnaround began. now they have AAA in Columbus(three hours away), AA in Akron(45 minutes away) and A ball in Eastlake(20 minutes away) which is about a quarter mile from our store. I pass it every day on the way to work and then home again.
the big league facility is available to everyone, top to bottom.
JD Martinez did pretty well when he played for Detroit so the explanation must be the added players on the Diamondbaccks and the change of scenery. he has been talked about all year by the Cleveland announcers, especially his power numbers. it could be the coaching he's gotten now, also.
JD has been very good to great the last three years or so. He was a fan favorite in the Motor City. When he is healthy and hot it seems every swing is going yard. He hits a lot of homers to right center. He learned that from Miggie
m
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Comments
That's fallacy #1 of MVP analysis.
in a nutshell, I think your argument comes down to year-long consistency vs. end-year surge. I will take the former over the latter, and I think the fact that the Yankees are one game away from elimination only highlights that fact: if Aaron Judge had "carried" his Team the entire season(as Jose Altuve has done) instead of doing a dumpster dive for two months the Yanks would be ahead of Boston(and he probably would be at 60+ HR's, which is amazing).
also, as I alluded to in my Jose Ramirez thread, Altuve makes a much greater contribution in the field and that absolutely has to be a consideration. that is why I always shy away from a pure DH, no matter haw good has stats are, from being an MVP.
Actually games where you have a better understanding of the magnitude of the outcome matter more. No different than at bats when the score is close matter more.
Robb
Actually games where you have a better...........................
I'm not sure if you're supporting Judge's late surge or not, so I'll assume you are. didn't he understand that games in July and August are important??
I think this whole thread started because Judge had that horrible and prolonged slump after the All-star break. It certainly looks like he's made adjustments and is more comfortable now. Just amazing what he's done with that huge strike zone. I probably mentioned this before in this thread but before the season, Yankee fans would have loved .250 and 25 HR from Judge.
during his "dumpster dive" he was still getting on base and scoring runs. His OBP was over 300. I wouldn't be surprised if he won Gold Glove as well. He has played the best right field in Yankee Statdium in my lifetime.
The Yanks would be no where without his contribution. Astros would have still won without Altuve, just not wrapped it up in early August.
since I started the thread I will answer the question of why the thread was started --- the media hype over his first half. go back and re-read the OP where it is very clear. I didn't knock Judge, I criticized the media for wanting to elevate him after less than a full season and I would still say the same thing. let's give him a good look during next season for a better overall opinion.
he has done great this year, but other Rookies have done the same and faded, that is all I had hoped to say.
The media and fans ended up being correct in the hype this year. If anything under hyped
Of course rookies often fade. Some get better. If this guy gets better holy crap
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
The national media hype around him and the intensity of the NY stage really make his poise, humility, and in-game performance all the more impressive and admirable. It's hard enough to play the game, let alone under the harshest spotlights and scrutiny.
When veterans like Todd Frazier say it's an honor to play with a rookie, that says a great deal. As a lifelong baseball fan, Aaron Judge makes me go beyond the numbers. “He went through it and just kept working,’’ Todd Frazier said on Monday. “That’s very hard to come back from, but that’s his mentality, his personality. It’s incredible, hitting 50, and for him to be as humble as he is, it’s an honor to play with him.”
I don't care about Judge or Altuve. The issue is folks can't claim one at bat is more important than another due to the score then say that all games are equal. Obviously games where you understand their impact on the playoff race are more important. Games later in the season do in fact have more importance than those earlier. I think we would all agree that if two teams are tied heading into the last game of the season then that last game is more important than a contest between those teams in May. Context matters, whether it is a game or an at bat.
Robb
But you see, early-season tilts directly impact the "more important" games at the tail end. If a player or players go full throttle in May as opposed to thinking, "No extra effort needed, because games at this stage aren't nearly as important," that line of thinking could very well be the difference between clinching in #161 in lieu of playing for your postseason life on the final day of the regular season.
Crime against humanity? REALLY?
The MVP debate is a tough one. It is NOT the MSAP........Most Statistically Achieving Player.
Like it or not, players who excel during meaningful games at the end of the season get more credit than ones that don't.
On a purely statistical level, games in April are worth the same as games in September, but many baseball fans will disagree.
ALWAYS remember "Chicks dig the long ball" ;-)
Both great players. I would give Judge the ROY and to prevent any crimes against humanity Altuve the MVP.
Judge won the AL Player of the Month for June and Altuve won in July. If I was to guess, Judge is a lock for POTM in September. 2 POTM's beats 1.
More historical context. The five players with 50 home runs, 120 runs scored and 120 walks in a season EVER:
Babe Ruth (6 times)
Mickey Mantle
Mark McGuire
Barry Bonds
Aaron Judge
It's a historic season. And he's a rookie. I can't wait to see what this kid does in the coming years.
hopefully, he works with coaches on his patience because right now he strikes out almost once every three times to the plate. remarkably, for every 10 plate appearances he either walks, strikes-out or hits a Home Run in six of them. I'll say one thing, when he stands in the batters box everyone has a pretty good idea of what is going to happen, and two of them are good!!
I don't think patience is quite what you are looking for. He see's more pitches per at bat then another other player in MLB. He may need to cut down on his swing a little with two strikes or try to go with the pitch to the opposite filed with two strikes. Maybe it's being a little more selective. However, it's hard to give to much advise as you run the risk of messing with his head. If nothing changes and he does this for 15 years he will be a first ballot HOFer
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
he leads the league in walks and pitches per at bat. How much more patience does he need? He takes too many pitches waist high, right down the middle. It's almost as if he is expecting a curve and they throw a pitch right in his wheelhouse and he freezes.
I noticed he stole a meaningless base last night, #9, to pad his stat line. Altuve has 24, maybe he is trying to narrow that gap. Or maybe there is some historical significance to 10 stolen bases and 50 home runs
I'll try not to issue any more hyperbolic statements. I'd hate for you to hurt yourself.
In that case he should stretch more before coming to the Sports Forum
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I haven't seen Judge play that much but when I have seen him he tended to get to two strikes quick. after that he's given "junk" which tends to account for the high pitch count. he is also liable to the high fastball as many other players are, to my way of thinking that's due at least in part because every swing is an HR swing. Mark is correct, less swing at two strikes, some players even choke up slightly at that point.
walks and HR's are certainly good, but I really doubt that trend will be the standard for his career. and besides, it is pretty common knowledge(at least I have heard it all season) that the ball is juiced. that is the one aspect of MLB that I really hate, the League has a history of manipulating the game for its own success.
BTW, since there are some here obsessing on stats, have you been watching what Charlie Blackmon has done in the NL?? he seems like a no-doubt MVP. I wonder how much of that is affected by where he plays half his games.
Thank you. I'm old you know, could kill me. ;-)
Blackmon- playing at Coors helps a lot
At Coors
Ave .385
HR 23
RBI 53
Everywhere else
Ave .277
HR. 13
RBI 43
Want to see some crazy good stats look at JD Martinez this year between Detroit and Arizona. He missed 30+ games. He is as good as any slugger in the game
Ave .304
HR. 44
RBI 103
SLG .695!!!
The kicker? He has only 418 at bats!!!!
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
There are a lot of good candidates for MVP in the NL; Blackmon, Votto, Stanton, Arenado, Bryant, Rizzo and Harper all have a case. My vote would go to Arenado but any of the above seem reasonable. Even with all the missing games, Martinez would be in the running, too, if he'd been in the NL all year. Trout only has 388 at bats and he's yet again the best player in the AL.
Trout's team isn't even a 500 team. Amazing how few 500 teams there are this year
BTW lost in the Judge September is JD Martinez. He has hit 16 home runs in September breaking the NL record held since 1949. He has hit 29 home runs for the playoff bound Diamondbacks since he was traded from Detroit on July 18
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Blackmon- playing at Coors helps a lot
thanks for the stats, Mark. I suspected as much.
for a long time the Cleveland Indians had their AAA farm Team in Colorado Springs. it seemed that every time a top prospect came up his performance was disappointing. talk would get around to the altitude but it never made sense. then in the 80's(I think) the organization made some changes and moved everything closer to Cleveland and the turnaround began. now they have AAA in Columbus(three hours away), AA in Akron(45 minutes away) and A ball in Eastlake(20 minutes away) which is about a quarter mile from our store. I pass it every day on the way to work and then home again.
the big league facility is available to everyone, top to bottom.
JD Martinez did pretty well when he played for Detroit so the explanation must be the added players on the Diamondbaccks and the change of scenery. he has been talked about all year by the Cleveland announcers, especially his power numbers. it could be the coaching he's gotten now, also.
JD has been very good to great the last three years or so. He was a fan favorite in the Motor City. When he is healthy and hot it seems every swing is going yard. He hits a lot of homers to right center. He learned that from Miggie
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
https://youtube.com/watch?v=iphNvC12kkg
Judge named POTM for September. He previously won in June. So he was the hottest player in the league from April-June and POTM in September.
MVP