a Warning for Dak Prescott graders on this forum
erikthredd
Posts: 9,176 ✭✭✭✭✭
Just an FYI for Dak Prescott collectors, Looks like BGS has issues with Dak Prescott's 2016 Prizm redemption autos saying they're probably from an autopen.
http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/19841501/dak-prescott-accused-using-machine-sign-autograph
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
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well thats what you get when you have 1 million cards to sign in 2 weeeks
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_players_from_Panama
As a Cowboys fan, this is shameful. Bottom line
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As bad as it is, the best case scenario for collectors would be if Dak or one of his reps did this.
Worst case would be if someone at Panini with the means to do so was backdooring legit product and replacing it. Then everything would be suspect.
From what I read/skimmed on blowout, only the redemption cards have bogus autos and the pack issued autos are legit? Would it be worth it to go to all the trouble of buying one of those machines and calibrating it just to avoid signing redemptions? How many are there?
Like vw, there should be a buyback, but all those modern collectors are screwed as they overpaid for those cards on ebay
Yup but the article does say this happened with a Falcons rookie and Panini is offering to switch out all the bad autos with legit ones. They'll probably do the same with Dak but that won't help all of the collectors that mailed this card in for grading who already lost money on this card.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
What legal ramifications are in place if this is found to be 100% true? After all an affidavit was signed. Curious of the penalty which may/may not be enforced.
Panini has a monopoly on football cards. There will be no fallout from this because Dak is the Cowboys QB and Panini doesn't want to alienate him. I'm still waiting on 5 OBJ redemptions from 2014 Select. That is why I sell every redemption card I pull from Panini and let someone else get their heart broken.
If you want to buy a product with a legit Dak auto with no redemption, focus on the early 2016 Panini products like the collegiate product and Certified. After Dak blew up it became Redemption City.
This probably happens more than you think.
This is why i collect after market autos. Stickers are bad enough. Autopen? That's even worse.
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Well said!!!
stickers are bad
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_players_from_Panama
Looks like he may not be the only one.
Kevin
Kevin
Yikes
It will be interesting to see how many others are discovered.
Say it aint so PANINI
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_players_from_Panama
I think Leaf auto rookies just went up. All On-Card.
YES ! I HAVE TWO LEAF COLLEGIATE !!!! 1/10
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_players_from_Panama
Why are you trusting on-card autos? Were they actually witnessed by someone?
From what I read the auto pen is easy to use on sticker sheets, which makes sense since a sheet of cards would be much larger.
The real question is did Panini know about this? Maybe this will open the door for Topps if enough people start complaining on social media, Goddell has no problem throwing Panini under the bus to protect the Shield.
I'm far from an expert but I believe that generally card companies have someone there to witness and/or the player signs some sort of affidavit attesting to having signed the cards. This is most likely where the shenanigans takes place.
Kevin
Kevin
In defense of Panini, a lot of the top rookies sign at the Rookie Premiere in LA, so the on-card Panini rookie autos from the early product is most likely good. Also I'm sure a lot of the rookie stickers are good as well since a lot of those are signed at the premiere.
Maybe in Dak's case they underestimated how many they needed since 4th round QBs, even for the Cowboys, aren't expected to be in huge demand in later products. Hopefully this is a one-off event instead of another "Game Used" jersey patch fiasco.
I tend to not blame Panini. If you paid someone to sign cards, they have a contract to sign those cards and they sent you back signed cards you have to trust that the athlete did what they were paid to do. This is fraud and a breach of contract on the part of the athlete. I think trust of on-card autos by the major card companies have a strong track record. There are only a handful of these stories with thousands upon thousands of autographed cards that have never been found to be fake.
Panini definitely deserves blame as they cased them up and sent them out hoping nobody would notice.The people that unpack player returns are able to notice a difference between signatures since they see a high number of them probably daily.They send the markers to the players to sign with and anything not hand signed is easy to spot due to marker flows and light shimmy.If these were sorted by machine which they weren't then I would understand Panini being a victim of circumstance but when these cards are placed by hand into holders which they are someone didn't care that they looked different.The fact that some were stickers which makes it easier to tell marker strokes further cements that someone there didn't care.Unless the person placing them in holders was a first day on the job worker which I doubt since anyone tasked with that should be trained to spot differences then Panini sure does deserve some blame on this.
BST references several
Wonder how bad it would be for new market stuff if Panini were proven to play a part in this. Would all new age stuff take a dive on speculation?
No because group breakers are the driving part of box prices.Panini used replica jerseys in Flawless a couple years ago and have had issues with auto pen and fake autographs before and ut was all swept under the rug.The difference being now it involves a big name player and cards with very high values.
BST references several
The pawn stars Steve Grad?
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It's tougher to believe that athletes making millions of dollars are actually taking the time to sign thousands of cards for what must seem to them like a couple of dollars.
Yes he worked for PSA and was a buddy authenticator of Rick's on Pawn Stars. He recently left for BGS about 6 months ago.
NFLPA contract with the card companies...no choice but to sign...just do it
Just saw thesw updates post...see quotes from Mr. Grad
http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/19909682/panini-america-investigation-finds-some-dak-prescott-autographed-cards-not-authentic
https://blog.paniniamerica.net/2017/07/07/panini-america-and-dak-prescott-issue-statement/
on another board they found other cards released by Panini that were auto-penned....
...so at first I'm was thinking Daks agent but if more Panini cards show up auto-penned and with their history..well..sigh....
...its just plain greed on whoever is doing this....just for a few dollars more..actually nickels and dimes compared to a legit business...look at the amt steiner sports does annually and now they're investigated in their role over mannings fake helmet (although that one looks to be on Eli)
This just all sucks for the end user.
Or it might have just been an employee trying to cover up his own incompetence (ie. sending out the wrong amount of items to be signed...or losing some of them after the athletes submitted them...and, instead of admitting the error, fixing it himself). We'll never know for sure because no one will care enough to investigate it.
I saw a column the other day where the writer said Dak signed 37 footballs during their interview (before this controversy). If he's doing stuff like that on the side for I don't know who, hard to understand why he would use a machine to sign a few hundred redemption cards from a company that probably wrote a decent sized check.
I'm generally skeptical with athletes/celebrities, but that doesn't seem to fit.
Contract extension. LOL!
Kevin
http://sportscollectorsdaily.com/prescott-no-idea-autopenned-cards-happened/
Kevin
Wow. Unreal. I wonder if he had nothing to do with it and it was a panini employee? Either way, this makes me lose confidence in modern cards
...I personally think it was probably Daks agent or one of his friends or employees. I don't trust Panini as far as I can throw them but I don't think they used it....in this case. One reason is that multiple players using the pen are turning up. But all are with Panini so far. Although they do have the licensing agreement with the NFL.
.....Buuuut, I also think Dak had to know and definitely does NOT have plausible deniability. Thats because time after time athletes tell anecdotes how onerous it is to sign 5000 photos or 500 footballs. So at some point he had to ask his agent, "hey, where are all those cards or photos I was supposed to sign for Panini?" Just because it was something he wasn't looking forward to but knew he got paid and it had to be done. Dak does come off as an intelligent man so in no way would i believe he forgot about it.
.....Panini already released a statement but its just another example in a long line for them and, unfortunately, for the hobby. Im glad the grading services got ahead of this and that they can be trusted. Otherwise if I don't see the guy sign it himself, it has to have PSA's seal.
......And so much for Dak and all the good will that came from him literally picking up after himself, grabbing his own trash when he missed the garbage can on national TV. But like i said, i have a feeling it was probably his agent or cohort, etc.
....Although, its kind of a coincidence that other players with Panini contracts are using an autopen.....so is Panini kind of recommending to their clients.."Hey, if you don't want to sign 2000 sticker yourself....."
...Im done with Panini and Im done believing in coincidences. Thoughts?...sorry so long but its so aggravating that the hobby we love continues to get a black eye......sigh....IMHO
(I don't know why my 1st paragraph was put in a box. Sorry.)
As far as "an employee trying to cover up his own incompetence" would have been believable if this was just limited to Dak. But it seems there are other players using the autopen (or someone using it for him).
That doesn't rule out the possibility of a Panini employee damaging/losing/stealing autographed cards from those various players and then trying to replace them. How hard it would be for someone on the inside to reprint and replace the cards (with autopenned versions) is difficult to know. It depends on how tight their security is but I'm not getting the impression that they're a well-oiled machine. We don't really know enough about their operations to know what could or could not happen to their inventory.
I'm also not clear on how many the players signed in relation to how many were autopenned. I would imagine the players just sign whatever they're given. If they never signed any for Panini then I'm sure they would notice but if they signed a bunch but some were missing I wouldn't expect them to catch that.
BTW, I'm not ruling out on the possibility of shenanigans on the player's end either. I don't doubt that a lot of stuff goes on from their end. My only point with Dak is it sounded ilke he was signing stuff fairly regularly anyway so I don't really see the incentive to get a machine and screw over Panini, particularly if it was only used on a portion of the cards he signed for them.
Is this auto pen too? Or auto mouth?
This part got buried by the lead, from the Panini blog post -
"It was also discovered that some of Prescott’s Prizm cards are still unaccounted for. Panini has committed to remanufacturing all the Dak Prescott Prizm Football cards, which Dak will sign to replace all the autograph cards within the Prizm collection. All the remanufactured cards for the Prizm collection autographed by Prescott will feature a special Dak Prescott hologram to differentiate the new cards."
Now they also admit they don't do a good job keeping track of the cards. There must be an underground Dak and I assume Zeke market in Dallas. I can see it now, some Panini flunky in a dark alley - "hey man, you wants some Dak Prizm RCs? fresh off the press.." This may explain why I don't pull any nice Dak and Zeke cards!
As for the autopen, I'm blaming the agent. Under the current NFLPA standard agent contracts and the rookie salary scale, the agents really don't make much money on a players first contract. The only way the agent can make real money in the first five years of a players career is thru marketing and off-field deals, which they can get up to a 25% commission. Dak's agent is probably pushing as many as the deal as possible to cash in and got greedy. I'm sure there are probably some signed 8x10s that have the same autopen.
What I don't get is how they will avoid people from complaining it is not the original print run or something like that. Also for the cards that already sold for big money it seems would be impossible to cash-out for the same.
That looks like diarrhea of the mouth
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
Is it true that Topps auto cards are signed in front of a Topps representative?
Can't wait until Topps gets football back....
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If you were Joe Buck and you had an opportunity to shoot the breeze with Bryce Harper DURING a game while he was standing in right field waiting to make a play, you would ask him what he thought about Dak Prescott. Because, WTF, you're Joe Buck.
Probably should have posted this in the Mt. Rushmore thread but Travis T you just might be my favorite contributor on the site. Almost always funny, great eye for comedic moments, sprinkle in some pop culture and BAM! You've got a Travis T post. Plus cudoos for the ever changing signature line. Your effort does not go unnoticed.
Kevin
Kevin
i love your hair
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_players_from_Panama
The company urges anyone offered a 2016 Prizm Dak Prescott autographed card not featuring the special hologram to contact Panini America immediately.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_players_from_Panama
Is the special hologram on the back of the card?