@BillDugan1959 said:
True, I don't like the origin of these replicas, but I also feel that you have posted at least 13,000+'times too many based upon your scanty numismatic knowledge.
I've seen similar visceral responses for other items like 1804 dollars and 1913 nickels. It's interesting what some collectors will take a strong disliking to.
I try to be logically consistent in my posts which you seemed to have an issue with. Feel free to click ignore if you think that will help. I won't be hurt
@Justacommeman said:
I own one and know exactly what it is. I like it.....a lot.
mark
Indeed! I have a Gem Proof example and a Gem Uncirculated example, both dated 9/12/2001, and I find the workmanship and final product very, very pleasing!
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
This item may be related as PCGS calls this coin a "restrike" and it was made from new dies.
Mexico Peso 1898 - 1949 Restrike
In 1949, United States, Mexico, and the Republic of China worked out a deal to strike 10,250,000 Mexican peso coins to ship to China to pay soldiers fighting the Communists.
It was decided to use the design from the 1898 Mexican peso.
All of the dies for striking the pesos were prepared in Mexico City and small changes were made to differentiate the new coins from the 1898 originals.
8,250,000 were struck at the Mexico City Mint and 2,000,000 were struck at the San Francisco Mint.
The ones in existence today come from Mexico City as the San Francisco ones were later melted.
These coins were not made for sale to collectors but would they also be called "replicas" due to the new (in 1949) dies?
Good point @WillieBoyd2. While Mexico restruck silver (and gold) coins for commerce, some countries like Austria continue to issue predated coins today, e.g. the 1915 ducat. It would be interesting if the term replica was applied for coins issued by Mexico, Austria and other countries.
Here are the order pages for the Austria 1915 1 and 4 ducat coins:
@BillDugan1959 said:
The fifty dollar slug (that this replica is based upon) was issued by a private entity and I'm thinking that the term "coin" isn't entirely accurate. The United States Mint at San Francisco was up and running when the original 50 dollar slug was uttered (in very limited quantities).
The inscription under the Libertas Americana medal denotes that the engraver was a (proud) Parisian, not that the medal itself was minted there.
Though I am often a stickler for detail, I am willing to give the privately-made Appalachian, Coloradan, California and other Western gold pieces that circulated as money the benefit of the doubt and call them "coins." However, I do not insist that you do the same.
TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Captain, As you are one of the two principal authors of "The Coin World Comprehensive Catalog & Encyclopedia of U.S. Coins, 2nd Edition (about1998, IIRC), I would be a complete fool to ever argue with you about numismatics or much else. That masterful book deserved to go into edition after edition, but somehow did not do so. You have no doubt forgotten more than I ever knew about coins. I occasionally saw you working the counter at Harlan Berk's and noted that you also have the patience of a saint. On occasion, Mr. and Mrs. Alexander have told me nothing but nice things about you. You won't catch me disagreeing with you under any circumstances.
@WillieBoyd2 said:
Possibly this might work:
Government made = restrike
Privately made = replica
That is one approach but I would change it from government and private to "original issuer" and "different issuer" to better cover tokens and medals.
I think this would cause some confusion per the definitions mentioned here but is one way to address the issue with original issuers issuing subsequent strikes.
@WillieBoyd2 said:
Possibly this might work:
Government made = restrike
Privately made = replica
That is one approach but I would change it from government and private to "original issuer" and "different issuer" to better cover tokens and medals.
I think this would cause some confusion per the definitions mentioned here but is one way to address the issue with original issuers issuing subsequent strikes.
I understand your point, and that makes sense to me! That being said, sometimes the "original issuer" makes noticeable changes with the restrikes. A case in point is the United States Diplomatic Medal - the brainchild of Thomas Jefferson and George Washington - which was to be awarded to foreign ambassadors serving in the U.S., as a token of appreciation when their term of service would be ending.
This is an original 1792 Paris Mint striking of the Diplomatic medal, with just 4 known to exist:
Notice, Dupre did NOT sign the medal.
This is one of the U.S. "Restrikes" struck in 1876, with new dies created by Charles Barber:
Here, Barber signed the medal, and also gave credit to the original engraver Dupre. Comparing this to the originals shows other design differences as well, particularly in the eagle and clouds.
This is one of the U.S. Restrikes, using Barber's dies, circa mid-20th Century:
And...this is the 2013 Paris Mint "Restrike," featuring a whole lot of changes:
As you can see, the Paris Mint actually copied Barber's design, rather than Dupre's, and added a very busy border on both sides. (Maybe we can call this one, the "Starred Reverse" variety? BTW, there's 60 stars on the reverse border, so it seems the intent was to just fill the border.)
@WillieBoyd2 said:
Possibly this might work:
Government made = restrike
Privately made = replica
That is one approach but I would change it from government and private to "original issuer" and "different issuer" to better cover tokens and medals.
I think this would cause some confusion per the definitions mentioned here but is one way to address the issue with original issuers issuing subsequent strikes.
I understand your point, and that makes sense to me! That being said, sometimes the "original issuer" makes noticeable changes with the restrikes.
This is certainly an interesting point.
The 2013 Paris Mint "restrike", in addition to adding new devices in 2013, has the 1876 date and Barber's name on it from the US Mint issue. It's also interesting that while the 1876 issue says "DUPRE.F." the 2013 issue says "d'après Dupré" (after Dupré). I wonder if future issues will also say "d'après Barber"? Given the 2013 device changes, I agree variety may be more appropriate for this piece than restrike.
BTW, there's 60 stars on the reverse border, so it seems the intent was to just fill the border.)
I wonder if they know the US used the number of stars to indicate the number of states. It's not for France because they have 22 provinces and 95 regions.
Here's a graded PCGS coin with a gold foil insert! I wonder if this was graded at the time of initial issuance (of the non-graded pieces) or afterwards.
It's worth mentioning that there are around 10 actual restrikes that were made from the original Kellogg $50 dies at the same time that these pieces were made.
I've often wondered whether the graded examples of these like the one pictured here were the missing Tommy Thompson coins, cracked out and submitted to obfuscate the source.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
@Justacommeman said:
I own one and know exactly what it is. I like it.....a lot.
mark
Me too. And I don't really care whether it's holdered or what PCGS calls it. It's from melted SSCA gold, and commemorates the discovery (more cynically the "marketing") of the wreck. They look cool and carry a good amount of historicity. I'd much rather own that than the equivalent weight in AGEs or some other bullion product.
@Justacommeman said:
I own one and know exactly what it is. I like it.....a lot.
mark
Me too. And I don't really care whether it's holdered or what PCGS calls it. It's from melted SSCA gold, and commemorates the discovery (more cynically the "marketing") of the wreck. They look cool and carry a good amount of historicity. I'd much rather own that than the equivalent weight in AGEs or some other bullion product.
I’m with you guys, I like these and bought one (even though @Regulated might smack me for doing so). It serves as a nice placeholder until the real deal finds its way into the collection. Someday...
Comments
I've seen similar visceral responses for other items like 1804 dollars and 1913 nickels. It's interesting what some collectors will take a strong disliking to.
I try to be logically consistent in my posts which you seemed to have an issue with. Feel free to click ignore if you think that will help. I won't be hurt
Indeed! I have a Gem Proof example and a Gem Uncirculated example, both dated 9/12/2001, and I find the workmanship and final product very, very pleasing!
It's part of my guilty pleasure box
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Does anyone have information on the SF Mint press that was used to strike these? For example, which press was used and who operated it?
Here's some info on the press from CoinFacts:
This item may be related as PCGS calls this coin a "restrike" and it was made from new dies.
Mexico Peso 1898 - 1949 Restrike
In 1949, United States, Mexico, and the Republic of China worked out a deal to strike 10,250,000 Mexican peso coins to ship to China to pay soldiers fighting the Communists.
It was decided to use the design from the 1898 Mexican peso.
All of the dies for striking the pesos were prepared in Mexico City and small changes were made to differentiate the new coins from the 1898 originals.
8,250,000 were struck at the Mexico City Mint and 2,000,000 were struck at the San Francisco Mint.
The ones in existence today come from Mexico City as the San Francisco ones were later melted.
These coins were not made for sale to collectors but would they also be called "replicas" due to the new (in 1949) dies?
The Mysterious Egyptian Magic Coin
Coins in Movies
Coins on Television
Good point @WillieBoyd2. While Mexico restruck silver (and gold) coins for commerce, some countries like Austria continue to issue predated coins today, e.g. the 1915 ducat. It would be interesting if the term replica was applied for coins issued by Mexico, Austria and other countries.
Here are the order pages for the Austria 1915 1 and 4 ducat coins:
Possibly this might work:
Government made = restrike
Privately made = replica
The Mysterious Egyptian Magic Coin
Coins in Movies
Coins on Television
Though I am often a stickler for detail, I am willing to give the privately-made Appalachian, Coloradan, California and other Western gold pieces that circulated as money the benefit of the doubt and call them "coins." However, I do not insist that you do the same.
TD
Captain, As you are one of the two principal authors of "The Coin World Comprehensive Catalog & Encyclopedia of U.S. Coins, 2nd Edition (about1998, IIRC), I would be a complete fool to ever argue with you about numismatics or much else. That masterful book deserved to go into edition after edition, but somehow did not do so. You have no doubt forgotten more than I ever knew about coins. I occasionally saw you working the counter at Harlan Berk's and noted that you also have the patience of a saint. On occasion, Mr. and Mrs. Alexander have told me nothing but nice things about you. You won't catch me disagreeing with you under any circumstances.
That is one approach but I would change it from government and private to "original issuer" and "different issuer" to better cover tokens and medals.
I think this would cause some confusion per the definitions mentioned here but is one way to address the issue with original issuers issuing subsequent strikes.
I understand your point, and that makes sense to me! That being said, sometimes the "original issuer" makes noticeable changes with the restrikes. A case in point is the United States Diplomatic Medal - the brainchild of Thomas Jefferson and George Washington - which was to be awarded to foreign ambassadors serving in the U.S., as a token of appreciation when their term of service would be ending.
This is an original 1792 Paris Mint striking of the Diplomatic medal, with just 4 known to exist:
Notice, Dupre did NOT sign the medal.
This is one of the U.S. "Restrikes" struck in 1876, with new dies created by Charles Barber:
Here, Barber signed the medal, and also gave credit to the original engraver Dupre. Comparing this to the originals shows other design differences as well, particularly in the eagle and clouds.
This is one of the U.S. Restrikes, using Barber's dies, circa mid-20th Century:
And...this is the 2013 Paris Mint "Restrike," featuring a whole lot of changes:
As you can see, the Paris Mint actually copied Barber's design, rather than Dupre's, and added a very busy border on both sides. (Maybe we can call this one, the "Starred Reverse" variety? BTW, there's 60 stars on the reverse border, so it seems the intent was to just fill the border.)
This is certainly an interesting point.
The 2013 Paris Mint "restrike", in addition to adding new devices in 2013, has the 1876 date and Barber's name on it from the US Mint issue. It's also interesting that while the 1876 issue says "DUPRE.F." the 2013 issue says "d'après Dupré" (after Dupré). I wonder if future issues will also say "d'après Barber"? Given the 2013 device changes, I agree variety may be more appropriate for this piece than restrike.
I wonder if they know the US used the number of stars to indicate the number of states. It's not for France because they have 22 provinces and 95 regions.
I like Willie Boyd's criteria, but there will still be some things that fall in between.
The Dupre and Barber things are like the original Star Trek and Star Trek: TNG.
The Dupre and the more recent Monnaie de Paris things are like the original Star Trek and Star Trek: Voyager.
Here's a graded PCGS coin with a gold foil insert! I wonder if this was graded at the time of initial issuance (of the non-graded pieces) or afterwards.
It's bullion.
Yes, but it's bullion created by Ron Landis using the original dies (likely via a pantograph) on a former San Francisco Mint press.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/864484/chs-ss-central-america-kellogg-co-slugs-transfer-dies-or-copy-dies
There are some other nice bullion pieces out there too, like the gold Libertas Americana and United States Diplomatic Medal shown above.
Thanks to PCGS for certifying all of these.
It's worth mentioning that there are around 10 actual restrikes that were made from the original Kellogg $50 dies at the same time that these pieces were made.
I've often wondered whether the graded examples of these like the one pictured here were the missing Tommy Thompson coins, cracked out and submitted to obfuscate the source.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
Well, off to shop for a kit car.
Me too. And I don't really care whether it's holdered or what PCGS calls it. It's from melted SSCA gold, and commemorates the discovery (more cynically the "marketing") of the wreck. They look cool and carry a good amount of historicity. I'd much rather own that than the equivalent weight in AGEs or some other bullion product.
I’m with you guys, I like these and bought one (even though @Regulated might smack me for doing so). It serves as a nice placeholder until the real deal finds its way into the collection. Someday...
Old thread, but I just ran across this again during a search and wanted to say it's gorgeous
Just ran across a TrueView for this.