@ReggieCleveland said: The early generation/cert numbers on GAI pack holders are considered as good as a PSA slab is today. I believe it was Mike Baker doing the authenticating during that time?
I mean, it's not like PSA packs have a shining reputation you can hang your hat on.
Arthur
Mark Murphy was authenticating packs for GAI early on (I think 100 and 101 serial number slabs) and these have typically been considered the most reliable.
Doug (1all)
I wonder whatever became of him...I know his shop burned down and he never recovered from it. I hope he's doing okay in whatever it is he's doing...though I will say he wasn't exactly the friendliest and/or most patient guy back then
@ReggieCleveland said: The early generation/cert numbers on GAI pack holders are considered as good as a PSA slab is today. I believe it was Mike Baker doing the authenticating during that time?
I mean, it's not like PSA packs have a shining reputation you can hang your hat on.
Arthur
Mark Murphy was authenticating packs for GAI early on (I think 100 and 101 serial number slabs) and these have typically been considered the most reliable.
Doug (1all)
I wonder whatever became of him...I know his shop burned down and he never recovered from it. I hope he's doing okay in whatever it is he's doing...though I will say he wasn't exactly the friendliest and/or most patient guy back then
He lives out in CA but keeps a very low profile and has expressed no interest in getting back into the hobby. He speaks occasionally to a mutual friend of ours who I think is one of the few who still has any contact with him at all.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
maybe someday the baseball card kid will find his way back to the hobby. i know Jim Cramer from Pacific was gone for 20 years, but recently has made a comeback of sorts. at least he is participating in podcasts, has been in beckett and written a book about pacific.
it's hard to trust a lot of the unopened stuff. I have some, but mainly purchased them when they weren't worth anything. For example, I have 12 1987 opc unopened boxes. I never paid more than $20 a box for them. I got 7 in one deal for $125. But at the time the bonds was worth $200 in PSA 10 and the rest of the cards zilch. Same for 1985 and 1987 leaf. I did purchase 2 1987 leaf boxes recently from dealers who got them for sealed cases they had purchased themselves.
But for me to go out and pay $3,000 for an unopened 1979 opc box, I just wouldn't trust it nor do it.
It's just like any other niche in the hobby -- if you want to start collecting it then you want to learn everything you can about it so that you're not 100% dependent on a slab or plastic wrap. The more experience you gain in the process the more comfortable you feel dealing in the deep end of the swimming pool.
I could name a lot of people off the top of my head that have more knowledge than I do when it comes to unopened (it's a long list) but I still feel comfortable relying on myself if I were in a position where I had to make a judgment call myself.
But we also haven't gotten into my wheelhouse yet. As time goes by and junk wax becomes more valuable I'll be able to contribute much more to the conversation.
@ReggieCleveland said:
I
But we also haven't gotten into my wheelhouse yet. As time goes by and junk wax becomes more valuable I'll be able to contribute much more to the conversation.
Arthur
Prob in for a 10-20 years of pain in that area. Even then gains maybe short-lived as they were in 2021.
Of course I collect 1960s-1970s unopened Non-Sport, thus take what I say with grain of salt.
This era of producing fake and fraudulent merchandise is almost frightening. Recently there was a news story about how thru AI, a modeling agency has created a portfolio of a beautiful fashion model, classily posed, nothing obscene, wearing various clothing and such. Her AI name is Aitana López. It has fooled many if not almost all, if you didn't know it was AI. I mean this is faking a human being for crying out loud.
So if they can now do that, my guess is anything made by man, can be faked by man. Scammers have already faked and fooled many with Renaissance art, entire diaries, and virtually everything else over the years. Sometimes it even fools the experienced guys at Pawn Stars.
So I would completely agree, before investing serious coin into something, learn as much as possible about it that you can. Not just from a future investment standpoint, but from an authentic standpoint as well.
Our hosts here can take the guesswork out of authentication, etc. And thank goodness for that. Sort of like when Pawn Stars calls in an expert for verification of an item before buying it. In fact, I've seen the Pawn Stars guys, including the owner, call in experts from PSA and PCGS to verify an expensive item.
All that being said, in my view, when buying raw, or from a suspect grading company, particularly for autographs in which there is a plague out there of anybody and their brother issuing LOA's, due diligence is a must. That is unless you don't mind throwing away your hard earned money on a deal that was too good to be true.
@ReggieCleveland said:
I
But we also haven't gotten into my wheelhouse yet. As time goes by and junk wax becomes more valuable I'll be able to contribute much more to the conversation.
Arthur
Prob in for a 10-20 years of pain in that area. Even then gains maybe short-lived as they were in 2021.
Of course I collect 1960s-1970s unopened Non-Sport, thus take what I say with grain of salt.
That's the nice thing about immersing yourself in a subject, you learn about things that the average person isn't aware of. It can be as simple as knowing product codes for contents or knowing what an authentic case looks like. Most (?) here don't seem focused on flipping for a quick profit, there are a lot of true collectors that need information for no reason to do with money. I look forward to being able to help when I can.
Lots of people don't know what a J box is, let alone how to differentiate an authentic one from a fake (yes, someone sold me a fake '87 Topps J box off eBay).
@ReggieCleveland said:
I
But we also haven't gotten into my wheelhouse yet. As time goes by and junk wax becomes more valuable I'll be able to contribute much more to the conversation.
Arthur
Prob in for a 10-20 years of pain in that area. Even then gains maybe short-lived as they were in 2021.
Of course I collect 1960s-1970s unopened Non-Sport, thus take what I say with grain of salt.
That's the nice thing about immersing yourself in a subject, you learn about things that the average person isn't aware of. It can be as simple as knowing product codes for contents or knowing what an authentic case looks like. Most (?) here don't seem focused on flipping for a quick profit, there are a lot of true collectors that need information for no reason to do with money. I look forward to being able to help when I can.
Lots of people don't know what a J box is, let alone how to differentiate an authentic one from a fake (yes, someone sold me a fake '87 Topps J box off eBay).
Arthur
I don't disagree with ya. However remember the old saying that a little bit of knowledge is dangerous.
i have handled countless thousands of 1960's baseball cards over the years. Numerous 1950's cards as well. I can spot a fake or doctored card from this era a mile away when the card is in hand.
However with unopened packs, I have a little bit of knowledge about the subject, most of it learned from this great forum, and I hope you continue to provide it. That of course is very helpful and much appreciated. But I realize it's probably not enough for me to differentiate between a genuine or re-sealed pack in a slab from a suspect grading company. So for me, I'm sticking with PSA slabs only, if i'm shelling out serious coin.
Anyone else is free to choose and buy what they wish and take their chances - it's their money. But if they get a bargain price on a slabbed pack from a suspect grading company, rip it, and find there's nothing but garbage in there, they really shouldn't complain about it, if they have read and absorbed the posts on this forum.
Exposing the ins/outs of doctored cards/packs/boxes etc. is a doubled edge sword. On the one hand it tells would be purchasers what to look out for before buying. But on the other hand it alerts would be forgers what not to do in creating a passable doctored item.
Over on the coin forum when counterfeit coins are exposed the irregularities of the coin are exposed. Inadvertently it alerts future counterfeiters what not to do. They in turn become a better counterfeiter. Even fooling some experts,if not in the long term,but at least for the short term.
Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
@craig44 said:
maybe someday the baseball card kid will find his way back to the hobby. i know Jim Cramer from Pacific was gone for 20 years, but recently has made a comeback of sorts. at least he is participating in podcasts, has been in beckett and written a book about pacific.
Mike Cramer. And thank you for mentioning his book. I hadn't heard of it and just ordered it!
I can spot a fake or doctored card from this era a mile away when the card is in hand.
Just how long are your arms?????
I remember typing that, and on second review before posting, adding the "when the card is in hand."
That was because from say an Ebay scan of a raw card, it can sometimes be difficult to determine the authenticity and/or problems with the card.
Even just the feel of the cardboard of a raw card, can often be a telltale sign of it being fake. Similar to experts handling paper money can feel the difference between counterfeit and genuine.
I always tell newbies trying to learn authenticity of cards. Buy a cheap lot of say 20 or so lower grade raw commons off Ebay of a particular year that you're interested in collecting, IE something a scammer isn't going to counterfeit. Also buy some lower grade PSA slabbed commons as well. Then study the cards and all of the attributes. That way if a more expensive raw card or lot comes into play for you to buy, say at a live auction where the cards can be inspected, estate sales, etc, you would be better equipped to ascertain authenticity as well as condition.
Of course if you're still not skilled enough, then stick with only PSA slabbed cards. You may not get any super bargains doing that, but at least you won't get burnt buying a fake or altered card.
@BLUEJAYWAY said:
Exposing the ins/outs of doctored cards/packs/boxes etc. is a doubled edge sword. On the one hand it tells would be purchasers what to look out for before buying. But on the other hand it alerts would be forgers what not to do in creating a passable doctored item.
Over on the coin forum when counterfeit coins are exposed the irregularities of the coin are exposed. Inadvertently it alerts future counterfeiters what not to do. They in turn become a better counterfeiter. Even fooling some experts,if not in the long term,but at least for the short term.
I've heard this argument many times before as justification for why knowledge isn't shared publicly. There's a hint of truth to it but, for the most part, it's flawed logic. A lot of times, an item could be missing something that cannot be replicated and so pointing out the requirement can prevent someone from being ripped off.
My J box experience is a perfect example. If someone didn't know to look for that rip line on the bottom they would have assumed they got an authentic box. There's no way for someone to replicate that rip line.
I've also never heard of an example when the masses were more protected by ignorance than knowledge. If exposing something gets forgers to stop doing it, great. They'll start doing something else and we'll expose that. Meanwhile, it becomes common knowledge that X, Y, and Z should be avoided by all.
@craig44 said:
maybe someday the baseball card kid will find his way back to the hobby. i know Jim Cramer from Pacific was gone for 20 years, but recently has made a comeback of sorts. at least he is participating in podcasts, has been in beckett and written a book about pacific.
Mike Cramer. And thank you for mentioning his book. I hadn't heard of it and just ordered it!
hahaha, yes, Mike. I am sure Jim would give you some tips on stocks. whether you would want to take them or not...
I think eventually AI and 3D printing will enable scammers to produce very high quality fakes. We may cross an event horizon in advances in AI technology where everything authenticated past a certain date is suspect. There may come a time when old PSA cert numbers may carry a premium due to carrying better provenance. Sometimes I think, crazily enough that BBCE labels with Steve's handwriting on them might someday carry a premium as well. I feel like a simple BBCE registry would be a good idea and collectors would be willing to pay a premium on authentication to support that. You wouldn't have to use it as a pop report but just a means to verify the serial number on your sticker (all authenticated boxes by BBCE now contain a serial number sticker).
I know it's more work for them but they could charge for it. They probably already have an internal registry for boxes that got serial numbered. I think the reason they haven't made it public is it would result in a landslide of submissions of already wrapped boxes so guys could have their box in the registry. I wouldn't care so much about having my box in the pop report rather I think it would be helpful for potential buyers to be able to cross reference their box and match the serial number to BBCE's database in a transparent manner.
@craig44 said:
maybe someday the baseball card kid will find his way back to the hobby. i know Jim Cramer from Pacific was gone for 20 years, but recently has made a comeback of sorts. at least he is participating in podcasts, has been in beckett and written a book about pacific.
Mike Cramer. And thank you for mentioning his book. I hadn't heard of it and just ordered it!
I'm about 20 or 25 pages into the book and I'm loving it. Conversational style that feels like Cramer is just sitting there in front of you telling a story.
Comments
I wonder whatever became of him...I know his shop burned down and he never recovered from it. I hope he's doing okay in whatever it is he's doing...though I will say he wasn't exactly the friendliest and/or most patient guy back then
D's: 54S,53P,50P,49S,45D+S,44S,43D,41S,40D+S,39D+S,38D+S,37D+S,36S,35D+S,all 16-34's
Q's: 52S,47S,46S,40S,39S,38S,37D+S,36D+S,35D,34D,32D+S
74T: 37,38,47,151,193,241,435,570,610,654,655 97 Finest silver: 115,135,139,145,310
73T:31,55,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,80,152,165,189,213,235,237,257,341,344,377,379,390,422,433,453,480,497,545,554,563,580,606,613,630
95 Ultra GM Sets: Golden Prospects,HR Kings,On-Base Leaders,Power Plus,RBI Kings,Rising Stars
He lives out in CA but keeps a very low profile and has expressed no interest in getting back into the hobby. He speaks occasionally to a mutual friend of ours who I think is one of the few who still has any contact with him at all.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
maybe someday the baseball card kid will find his way back to the hobby. i know Jim Cramer from Pacific was gone for 20 years, but recently has made a comeback of sorts. at least he is participating in podcasts, has been in beckett and written a book about pacific.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
it's hard to trust a lot of the unopened stuff. I have some, but mainly purchased them when they weren't worth anything. For example, I have 12 1987 opc unopened boxes. I never paid more than $20 a box for them. I got 7 in one deal for $125. But at the time the bonds was worth $200 in PSA 10 and the rest of the cards zilch. Same for 1985 and 1987 leaf. I did purchase 2 1987 leaf boxes recently from dealers who got them for sealed cases they had purchased themselves.
But for me to go out and pay $3,000 for an unopened 1979 opc box, I just wouldn't trust it nor do it.
It's just like any other niche in the hobby -- if you want to start collecting it then you want to learn everything you can about it so that you're not 100% dependent on a slab or plastic wrap. The more experience you gain in the process the more comfortable you feel dealing in the deep end of the swimming pool.
I could name a lot of people off the top of my head that have more knowledge than I do when it comes to unopened (it's a long list) but I still feel comfortable relying on myself if I were in a position where I had to make a judgment call myself.
But we also haven't gotten into my wheelhouse yet. As time goes by and junk wax becomes more valuable I'll be able to contribute much more to the conversation.
Arthur
Prob in for a 10-20 years of pain in that area. Even then gains maybe short-lived as they were in 2021.
Of course I collect 1960s-1970s unopened Non-Sport, thus take what I say with grain of salt.
This era of producing fake and fraudulent merchandise is almost frightening. Recently there was a news story about how thru AI, a modeling agency has created a portfolio of a beautiful fashion model, classily posed, nothing obscene, wearing various clothing and such. Her AI name is Aitana López. It has fooled many if not almost all, if you didn't know it was AI. I mean this is faking a human being for crying out loud.
So if they can now do that, my guess is anything made by man, can be faked by man. Scammers have already faked and fooled many with Renaissance art, entire diaries, and virtually everything else over the years. Sometimes it even fools the experienced guys at Pawn Stars.
So I would completely agree, before investing serious coin into something, learn as much as possible about it that you can. Not just from a future investment standpoint, but from an authentic standpoint as well.
Our hosts here can take the guesswork out of authentication, etc. And thank goodness for that. Sort of like when Pawn Stars calls in an expert for verification of an item before buying it. In fact, I've seen the Pawn Stars guys, including the owner, call in experts from PSA and PCGS to verify an expensive item.
All that being said, in my view, when buying raw, or from a suspect grading company, particularly for autographs in which there is a plague out there of anybody and their brother issuing LOA's, due diligence is a must. That is unless you don't mind throwing away your hard earned money on a deal that was too good to be true.
SteveK great post, I really liked it until I saw the Eagle emblem. LOL, Just kidding.
I dunno why? I like your emblem of that jumping fish. 😉
That's the nice thing about immersing yourself in a subject, you learn about things that the average person isn't aware of. It can be as simple as knowing product codes for contents or knowing what an authentic case looks like. Most (?) here don't seem focused on flipping for a quick profit, there are a lot of true collectors that need information for no reason to do with money. I look forward to being able to help when I can.
Lots of people don't know what a J box is, let alone how to differentiate an authentic one from a fake (yes, someone sold me a fake '87 Topps J box off eBay).
Arthur
.
Tell-tale sign is on the bottom. They came with a squiggly line to rip in the cellophane. The cellophane on the fronts of yours look good.
Arthur
I don't disagree with ya. However remember the old saying that a little bit of knowledge is dangerous.
i have handled countless thousands of 1960's baseball cards over the years. Numerous 1950's cards as well. I can spot a fake or doctored card from this era a mile away when the card is in hand.
However with unopened packs, I have a little bit of knowledge about the subject, most of it learned from this great forum, and I hope you continue to provide it. That of course is very helpful and much appreciated. But I realize it's probably not enough for me to differentiate between a genuine or re-sealed pack in a slab from a suspect grading company. So for me, I'm sticking with PSA slabs only, if i'm shelling out serious coin.
Anyone else is free to choose and buy what they wish and take their chances - it's their money. But if they get a bargain price on a slabbed pack from a suspect grading company, rip it, and find there's nothing but garbage in there, they really shouldn't complain about it, if they have read and absorbed the posts on this forum.
Exposing the ins/outs of doctored cards/packs/boxes etc. is a doubled edge sword. On the one hand it tells would be purchasers what to look out for before buying. But on the other hand it alerts would be forgers what not to do in creating a passable doctored item.
Over on the coin forum when counterfeit coins are exposed the irregularities of the coin are exposed. Inadvertently it alerts future counterfeiters what not to do. They in turn become a better counterfeiter. Even fooling some experts,if not in the long term,but at least for the short term.
Just how long are your arms?????
Mike Cramer. And thank you for mentioning his book. I hadn't heard of it and just ordered it!
I remember typing that, and on second review before posting, adding the "when the card is in hand."
That was because from say an Ebay scan of a raw card, it can sometimes be difficult to determine the authenticity and/or problems with the card.
Even just the feel of the cardboard of a raw card, can often be a telltale sign of it being fake. Similar to experts handling paper money can feel the difference between counterfeit and genuine.
I always tell newbies trying to learn authenticity of cards. Buy a cheap lot of say 20 or so lower grade raw commons off Ebay of a particular year that you're interested in collecting, IE something a scammer isn't going to counterfeit. Also buy some lower grade PSA slabbed commons as well. Then study the cards and all of the attributes. That way if a more expensive raw card or lot comes into play for you to buy, say at a live auction where the cards can be inspected, estate sales, etc, you would be better equipped to ascertain authenticity as well as condition.
Of course if you're still not skilled enough, then stick with only PSA slabbed cards. You may not get any super bargains doing that, but at least you won't get burnt buying a fake or altered card.
I've heard this argument many times before as justification for why knowledge isn't shared publicly. There's a hint of truth to it but, for the most part, it's flawed logic. A lot of times, an item could be missing something that cannot be replicated and so pointing out the requirement can prevent someone from being ripped off.
My J box experience is a perfect example. If someone didn't know to look for that rip line on the bottom they would have assumed they got an authentic box. There's no way for someone to replicate that rip line.
I've also never heard of an example when the masses were more protected by ignorance than knowledge. If exposing something gets forgers to stop doing it, great. They'll start doing something else and we'll expose that. Meanwhile, it becomes common knowledge that X, Y, and Z should be avoided by all.
Arthur
hahaha, yes, Mike. I am sure Jim would give you some tips on stocks. whether you would want to take them or not...
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I think eventually AI and 3D printing will enable scammers to produce very high quality fakes. We may cross an event horizon in advances in AI technology where everything authenticated past a certain date is suspect. There may come a time when old PSA cert numbers may carry a premium due to carrying better provenance. Sometimes I think, crazily enough that BBCE labels with Steve's handwriting on them might someday carry a premium as well. I feel like a simple BBCE registry would be a good idea and collectors would be willing to pay a premium on authentication to support that. You wouldn't have to use it as a pop report but just a means to verify the serial number on your sticker (all authenticated boxes by BBCE now contain a serial number sticker).
I know it's more work for them but they could charge for it. They probably already have an internal registry for boxes that got serial numbered. I think the reason they haven't made it public is it would result in a landslide of submissions of already wrapped boxes so guys could have their box in the registry. I wouldn't care so much about having my box in the pop report rather I think it would be helpful for potential buyers to be able to cross reference their box and match the serial number to BBCE's database in a transparent manner.
I know right now given a choice...I prefer the handwritten boxes vs the typed ones.
I'm about 20 or 25 pages into the book and I'm loving it. Conversational style that feels like Cramer is just sitting there in front of you telling a story.