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1794 Dollar PCGS 64 and the influence of modern grading

I have the original Oswald auction catalogue from 1964.

Both 1794 Silver Dollars, the PCGS 66+ and the PCGS 64 sold back then for the same amount, 11.200 USD.
Its amazing to see how modern grading has a big influence on coin values.
Below I attached the catalogue pages.




Comments

  • cwtcwt Posts: 291 ✭✭✭

    Wow -- certainly a very different exchange rate back then.

  • topstuftopstuf Posts: 14,803 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Coinstartled said:
    My parents bought a new home that year for $31,000. Wish they had the foresight to buy those two coins instead and move us to a trailer.

    Then you'd have had to spend the coins on beer to "fit in."
    :p

  • CoinstartledCoinstartled Posts: 10,135 ✭✭✭✭✭

    More like pruno seltzer.

  • OnlyGoldIsMoneyOnlyGoldIsMoney Posts: 3,276 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Beyond my budget even in 1964 as my allowance was 25 cents a week.

  • VanHalenVanHalen Posts: 3,787 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 20, 2017 9:21AM

    @Coinstartled said:
    My parents bought a new home that year for $31,000. Wish they had the foresight to buy those two coins instead and move us to a trailer.

    ;)

    A $31k home in '64 was a chunk with median incomes ~$5500/year.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Interesting that the description highlights the rim damage and scratches.

    137 U.S.A., DOLLAR, 1794 (Bolender p. 17)-in mint state and showing original planchet marks, very well struck for this rarity
    138 U.S.A., DOLLAR, 1794-a similar coin, in mint state and with fewer planchet marks than last, but slight scratches on obverse and some rim damage on reverse, very well struck

  • dbldie55dbldie55 Posts: 7,717 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Bowers column in the recent Coin World spoke about this very thing happening in the 60's with pricing and grading. A BU coin went for X, and in most cases it did not matter if one was nicer than the other.

    Collector and Researcher of Liberty Head Nickels. ANA LM-6053
  • privaterarecoincollectorprivaterarecoincollector Posts: 629 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 20, 2017 11:36AM

    @dbldie55 said:
    Bowers column in the recent Coin World spoke about this very thing happening in the 60's with pricing and grading. A BU coin went for X, and in most cases it did not matter if one was nicer than the other.

    it is still like this today all over Europe for non US coins !

  • WinLoseWinWinLoseWin Posts: 1,471 ✭✭✭✭✭

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    Bumping it to note the recent results of the 64.

    The PCGS-64 auctioned for $2,820,000 on August 3, 2017.
    The PCGS-66+ auctioned for $4,993,750 on September 30, 2015

    They were much closer together in price when each sold raw in the 1980's.

    The now PCGS-66+ auctioned for $220,000 in October 1985.
    The now PCGS-64 auctioned for $242,000 in November 1988.
    .
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    "To Be Esteemed Be Useful" - 1792 Birch Cent --- "I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin

  • WinLoseWinWinLoseWin Posts: 1,471 ✭✭✭✭✭

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    That is an interesting video, especially around the 1 minute to 1:20 mark where they rotate the 1794 obverse to show the luster. Wish they would have done the reverse also. If you want a chance to see what a lustrous 1794 may look like in person, I would recommend watching at least that segment.

    In the 21st century I don't understand why auction companies and others still pretty much rely on the 19th century technology of only having a still picture. Heritage attempts it with their 360 view. But most fail to show the luster well, as their technique seems to be a "one size fits all" rather than optimizing the lighting placement. They do have some that look great though it only seems to be by chance whether it comes out any good.
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    "To Be Esteemed Be Useful" - 1792 Birch Cent --- "I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin

  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I agree - a $2M coin should have a high resolution rotating video attached to the still images

  • coindeucecoindeuce Posts: 13,471 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @topstuf said:

    @Coinstartled said:
    My parents bought a new home that year for $31,000. Wish they had the foresight to buy those two coins instead and move us to a trailer.

    Then you'd have had to spend the coins on beer to "fit in."
    :p

    And grow a mullet like Joe Dirt.

    "Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
    http://www.americanlegacycoins.com

  • skier07skier07 Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭✭✭

  • WDPWDP Posts: 517 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Lot 140 was a 1795 Flowing Hair Dollar, B-2 (Bolender-2). It was stolen from the Ostheimer's home in Honolulu in June 1968 and has never been recovered. It was not plated in the 1964 Christie's sale catalog.

    @privaterarecoincollector, Congratulations on owning an original copy of this catalog. It is very rare as you likely know!

    W. David Perkins Numismatics - http://www.davidperkinsrarecoins.com/ - 25+ Years ANA, ANS, NLG, NBS, LM JRCS, LSCC, EAC, TAMS, LM CWTS, CSNS, FUN

  • @WDP said:
    Lot 140 was a 1795 Flowing Hair Dollar, B-2 (Bolender-2). It was stolen from the Ostheimer's home in Honolulu in June 1968 and has never been recovered. It was not plated in the 1964 Christie's sale catalog.

    @privaterarecoincollector, Congratulations on owning an original copy of this catalog. It is very rare as you likely know!

    I bought it in London, was not that expensive, just 80 GBP.

    Wonder what this 1795 Dollar would grade today, it sold for a lot of money back then !

  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,891 ✭✭✭✭✭

    What was lot 147 and who is Van Colle?

    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,891 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @WinLoseWin said:
    .
    .

    Bumping it to note the recent results of the 64.

    The PCGS-64 auctioned for $2,820,000 on August 3, 2017.
    The PCGS-66+ auctioned for $4,993,750 on September 30, 2015

    They were much closer together in price when each sold raw in the 1980's.

    The now PCGS-66+ auctioned for $220,000 in October 1985.
    The now PCGS-64 auctioned for $242,000 in November 1988.
    .
    .

    The SP66 sold privately at 375K in August 1988, and was clearly worth that or more a few months later.

    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • AnalystAnalyst Posts: 1,438 ✭✭✭

    @PrivateRareCoinCollector: Both 1794 Silver Dollars, the PCGS 66+ and the PCGS 64 sold back then for the same amount, 11.200 USD. ... Its amazing to see how modern grading has a big influence on coin values.

    @WinLoseWin: They were much closer together in price when each sold raw in the 1980's. / The now PCGS-66+ auctioned for $220,000 in October 1985. / The now PCGS-64 auctioned for $242,000 in November 1988.

    I saw the Oswald-Norweb piece at times in different decades and I heard a great deal about the Oswald-Hayes-Pogue coin, from multiple sources, before I finally examined it in 2015. My current working hypothesis, which is just a hypothesis, is that the quality of these two coins was much closer in 1964 than it is in the present. They were probably both dipped shortly before the Christie's Auction in 1964 and more was done later. In another thread, did TDN imply that the Norweb piece was dipped not long before he first saw it in 2011 or 2012?

    Additionally, both coins have extensive mint-caused imperfections, other than adjustment marks, on their respective obverses. The Oswald-Hayes-Pogue coin may just have been more fortunate during the years from 1964 to the present. It is entirely plausible that both coins merited the same numerical grade, in accordance with present criteria, in 1964.

    Million Dollar Coins, Part 2: U.S. Silver Dollars

    "In order to understand the scarce coins that you own or see, you must learn about coins that you cannot afford." -Me
  • WinLoseWinWinLoseWin Posts: 1,471 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MrEureka said:
    What was lot 147 and who is Van Colle?

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    There is some good info in Ron Guth's excellent series on Lord St. Oswald coins. The coin is the 1794 1c S-45 now PCGS-65 RB.

    The Lord St. Oswald Coins – Where Are They Now? Part VII

    pcgsblog.com/2016/03

    It was recently sold in the Pogue sale where they expanded the name to Harold Van Colle. Still not sure who they are. Did not find much in an internet search. Is anyone around who was at that auction who would know? And if there is, I also wonder if any can recall enough to identify the now stolen 1795 Dollar noted in the comments of part IV of the series and by @WDP above.

    https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-6QP8M

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    "To Be Esteemed Be Useful" - 1792 Birch Cent --- "I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin

  • LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,282 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If I'm spending that kind of money, forget the photo's or video's - need to see it in person.

    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko.
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,891 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Lakesammman said:
    If I'm spending that kind of money, forget the photo's or video's - need to see it in person.

    I agree. You gotta be extra careful with anything over $2 million.

    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • WinLoseWinWinLoseWin Posts: 1,471 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MrEureka said:
    What was lot 147 and who is Van Colle?

    Found some more on Harold Van Colle. He was born in London in 1915, which explains why he is not much known in American numismatics.

    Here is a link to a 2007 obituary. He had some interesting pursuits beyond the "fine collection of coins, stamps and postmarks".

    https://pressreader.com/uk/the-jewish-chronicle/20071123/282308200755682

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    "To Be Esteemed Be Useful" - 1792 Birch Cent --- "I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin

  • TreashuntTreashunt Posts: 6,747 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @privaterarecoincollector said:
    As I am not buying anymore, I need to compensate somehow, thats why three new posts from me this week !

    well, thank you for this one.

    :)
    until I read the others

    Frank

    BHNC #203

  • WinLoseWinWinLoseWin Posts: 1,471 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Here is the Youtube video that was posted by Coinweek in the article above.

    At about the :55 to 1:20 mark are some great luster views of the 1794 Oswald-Norweb dollar. I thought it looked even better than I expected based on various still photos. A cool piece of early American history along with some other interesting coins in the video.

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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8RdW35GUWk

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    "To Be Esteemed Be Useful" - 1792 Birch Cent --- "I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin

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